New Spring Killings???

[Wooden Hedgehog]

POSSIBLE SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ NEW SPRING

 

I have a bit of a question concerning the testing for the shawl.

 

After reading New Spring, is it just me or can the Aes Sedai controlling the ter'angreal downstairs kill off anyone who fails one of the weaves? Is that what they do?

 

We know from reading that the Aes Sedai can see what's going on inside the ter'angreal and influence it. So, if an Accepted makes a mistake, do they just kill her off?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I really doubt it. There's too much evidence of women being put out of the Tower for failing their tests. The Kin being a prime example.

[Wooden Hedgehog]

Bob T,

 

The only thing I can recall about the Kin that we have met is, none had tried for the shawl.

 

Saying that, the only one I can recall who was not a run away was Reanne Corly and she failed the test for becoming an Accepted.

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, if you read the part dealing with the shawl test, it is very likely that failing the weave its self, leads to death. It's not just a test of making the weave, its a test to see if you can do it under any circumstances. That includes death being on the horizon... Meaning if you fail to do the weave, its because you feared death.... thus dead.. If that makes anysense... Also, If they failed on the non-lethal parts of the test.. I highly doubt they were even able to be tried for the testing. :P

[BenTGaidin]

While I'd think it is possible for the Aes Sedai to kill one being tested... I don't think they'd do actually do it; I think someone would interrupt the test if serious injury resulted, and the candidate would be healed. Why? First, because they aren't Black - I don't think that the Aes Sedai would really embrace a test that actually killed people, as opposed to just threatening them. Second, the Aes Sedai _want_ people to pass the tests and become more Aes Sedai. Not enough to fudge the tests for them, but definately enough to not want to kill someone promising simply because they messed up.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm with Sinister on this one. I've always gotten the impression that they either pass, or they die. Even the Accepted tests can be fatal and the ante is going to be upped considerably when trying for the Shawl.

[Wooden Hedgehog]

The reason I ask, is connected to Elaida.

 

She appears to influence the ter,angreal to such an extent that one of the other sister glares at her as she leaves. Even from Moraines pov, she beleives Elaida was trying to make her fail.

 

And as far as I can remember (Without going back of 11 or so thousand pages) we never hear about anyone failing the test for the shawl.

 

Maybe it is do or die!

[Guest cwestervelt]

I believe Elaida's attempt was more in the lines of a personal attack. Even though Moiraine never complained about the "training" sessions, Elaida still considered Moiraine to blame for her being disciplined. Elaida used the testing as a way to get back at Moiraine.

 

Not all aspects of the testing would have required death to be from physical injury. Should the channeller loose concentration at a crucial moment, she can draw to much and burn herself out or worse. To an Aes Sedai, being burned out would be as good as being dead, if death isn't preferable.

 

Don't forget, Aes Sedai don't like there mistakes to be known. They don't even admit them to themselves and that dooms them to repeat them. Someone failing the test could be construed as such a mistake, especially if they were burned out. A fatal "accident" might be around the corner for any such person.

[SinisterDeath]

Well it's certainly plausable that if they failed at the near beginning of the test, the people controlling the ter'angrael would be able to stop/and get them out before they died.. However I think on the later ones, where they are basically just standing there, being mauled by trollocs/mydraal, forming the weaves asap, if they failed, it could lead to death if the aes sedia watching arent fast enough to react... "or allow for 2nd chances"... We know that the accepted test, you can survive if you fail.. However that one didnt require healing did it? Also, people have been known not to return from those.

[Siswaiaman]

Nowadays (thenadays?) the tower can't afford to lose any more sisters. At Rand's birth there were what, 1000 sisters? Add up all the casualties from the seanchan, black, and natural death, and the kin doesn't even manage to bring the aes sedai count back to normal ("there were once more then 20 times this many novices...) Although the tests are rigorous, i doubt the aes sedai would be non-chalant about killing off potential AS.

[SinisterDeath]

I think the major thing here is, that if you did fail the shawl test, you would probably die, or be severely injured.. However I don't think the Aes Sedia put people in the test, with out knowing first hand that they are capable of completing it. Basically meaning, they may very easilly have a 100% shawl passing rate, since they observe there abilities/concentration enough to know they can pass the test. If they don't feel they can pass the test, they never get to take it. *also part of the reason the Kin, don't do the power based on strength but age, they never got far enough to find out about the strength issues.* Does any of that make some kind of sense?

[Siswaiaman]

it does. If there was a chance you'd fail, you'd never take it.

 

 

The shawl testing is done so that bad apples don't sneak through, and the tower doesn't lower its standards, right?

Whoever was supposed to teach elaida about teamwork and humility should be bf'ed.

[Ilyena]

I really don't think Aes Sedai "killed Accepted off" using the test for the shawl. There is no real proof pointing to this conclusion. If the only reason this is suspected, I have to disagree. Why would Aes Sedai, kill Aes Sedai? Especially after taking the three oaths to not kill any one, and since one of the laws of the tower say that Aes Sedai can never harm another initiate (Path of Daggers). The three oaths works from the persons perspective, so if they knew they were about to harm someone who was associated to the tower, and testing for Aes Sedai, how could they harm them, let alone kill them?

[Siswaiaman]

"Harm" is not "Kill". In the intro to WH (?) the sitter says that an AS can speak a lie if she beleives it to be the truth. An AS can even kill if she doesn't think shes killing.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I really don't think Aes Sedai "killed Accepted off" using the test for the shawl. There is no real proof pointing to this conclusion. If the only reason this is suspected' date=' I have to disagree. Why would Aes Sedai, kill Aes Sedai? Especially after taking the three oaths to not kill any one, and since one of the laws of the tower say that Aes Sedai can never harm another initiate (Path of Daggers). The three oaths works from the persons perspective, so if they knew they were about to harm someone who was associated to the tower, and testing for Aes Sedai, how could they harm them, let alone kill them?[/quote']

 

Suian suggests "accidents" as acceptable means of dealing with issues problems. She suggests it at least once with regards to Nicola and as a Novice, Nicola is a definite initiate. The restriction is that they aren't allowed to use the Power against an initiate of the Tower or as a weapon against non-shadowspawn/darkfriends. The Oaths don't constrain them from using physical methods. They worked Suian and Leanne over pretty good, and they were initiates.

[SinisterDeath]

Suian was stilled/deammyrlianized before she met them. Her oaths were gone, she can lie/kill/ect as much as she wants.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm not sure that that is true. One Oath is I will speak no word that is not true. Not, I will speak no word that is not true so long as I am an Aes Sedai.

 

In order to function under those Three Oaths, the AS have to parse them very carefully. The wording of that oath about lying is such that it applies unconditionally.

 

Siuan may have been Stilled and defrocked, but it seems to me all of the Oaths would still be binding unless part of all of that was being released from those Oaths.

[Jedimuppet]

I'm not sure that that is true. One Oath is I will speak no word that is not true. Not' date=' I will speak no word that is not true so long as I am an Aes Sedai.

 

In order to function under those Three Oaths, the AS have to parse them very carefully. The wording of that oath about lying is such that it applies unconditionally.

 

Siuan may have been Stilled and defrocked, but it seems to me all of the Oaths would still be binding unless part of all of that was being released from those Oaths.[/quote']

 

No Bob, stilling removes the effects of the three oaths, and it's mentioned explicitly through Egwene's point of view many times. In fact they discuss using the fact that the other AS don't suspect she can lie, and how best to use that.

 

Restoration of the ability to channel does not restore the oaths.

 

I don't have the books with me, but it's mentioned a bunch in the Salidar sections.

J

[Siswaiaman]

True.

 

Bob, the oaths only work on aes sedai as long as they remain aes sedai.

[Caerlie]

to be pedantic. the oaths only work while they can still channel. in effect it's like the oath binds them through their power. once their power is gone so are the oaths.

 

if an AS chose to retire from being AS, she'd have to be released from the oaths. Egwene mentions that when she's talking about having all women who can channel being connected to the tower in one form or other.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Siuan being bound or not doesn't really matter. I used her as an example in two ways. One, being the "accidents" and she isn't the only Aes Sedai, bound or otherwise, to propose such solutions.

 

The other is that both Suian and Leanne were innitiates of the Tower, but they were mis-treated pretty badly. The strictures only apply to the use of the Power against an initiate. Even then, in several of the books, it is clearly stated that that gets bent to greater and lesser degrees.

 

Siuan and Leanne were both released from the oaths. As where Sashelle (I think the Red is), Erian, and which ever other AS Rand severed. That is why they know appear to be young and not just ageless. The Ageless look is a result of the Oaths, the Slowing is the Power Usage.