Why isn't Turning used more by the Shadow?

[EirikDaude]

Basically what the title says - it becomes clear in the books that a channeler can be turned by 13 myrdraals and 13 channelers working in tandem. Is any reason given in the books for why this wasn't used far more than it was.

 

The wiki list only 14 people we know have been turned, although it is likely more were turned at the Black Tower.

 

What makes me wonder the most is that the Black Ajah has been around since at least the Trolloc Wars, but doesn't seem to have practiced Turning. As evidenced by the hunt for the Black Ajah under Seaine Sedai, it wasn't that hard to abduct a Sister for an evening, and the strategic implications of being able to slowly turn the White Tower black seems immense.

 

This was just an idea which occured to me while rereading the series, and I am not that far into it yet, so there may be some obvious reason I've missed. I don't seem to find much discussion of this by either a quick forum or google search so it kinda seems likely, so if someone here with a better grasp on the lore than me could weigh in, it would be much appreciated!

[Scarloc99]

If you remember from the first read through Turning someone takes away an essence of who they are so it is no good using it on anyone who has a public face because the change will be seen. In books 12 and 13 it becomes clear that it was used, alot, to turn the Aiel male channellers who went to fight the dark lord andit is suggested I think that there are female channelers who have been turned in that town as well. 

 

in reality I think RJ put it in as a mechanic and then didn't really see a good place to use it in the story early on. BS then expanded on it and tried to use it as a horror or tension builder in the Black tower (not to great effect but he tried). 

[EirikDaude]

On 10/23/2023 at 12:18 AM, Scarloc99 said:

If you remember from the first read through Turning someone takes away an essence of who they are so it is no good using it on anyone who has a public face because the change will be seen. In books 12 and 13 it becomes clear that it was used, alot, to turn the Aiel male channellers who went to fight the dark lord andit is suggested I think that there are female channelers who have been turned in that town as well. 

 

in reality I think RJ put it in as a mechanic and then didn't really see a good place to use it in the story early on. BS then expanded on it and tried to use it as a horror or tension builder in the Black tower (not to great effect but he tried). 

Ah, it is probably just me misremembering then, possibly influenced by the text on that wiki page.

 

From what I could recall the change in personality wasn't big enough that alarm bells began blaring for people who knew them before they were turned, it was more like there were some raised eyebrows and thoughts "huh, Evin's been acting a bit odd lately".

 

At any rate, I believe your second paragraph is correct, and that sometimes it is better to not think  too hard about some of the world building in a series if you want to keep your suspension of disbelief 🙂

 

[Samt]

On 10/22/2023 at 1:05 PM, EirikDaude said:

Basically what the title says - it becomes clear in the books that a channeler can be turned by 13 myrdraals and 13 channelers working in tandem. Is any reason given in the books for why this wasn't used far more than it was.

 

The wiki list only 14 people we know have been turned, although it is likely more were turned at the Black Tower.

 

What makes me wonder the most is that the Black Ajah has been around since at least the Trolloc Wars, but doesn't seem to have practiced Turning. As evidenced by the hunt for the Black Ajah under Seaine Sedai, it wasn't that hard to abduct a Sister for an evening, and the strategic implications of being able to slowly turn the White Tower black seems immense.

 

This was just an idea which occured to me while rereading the series, and I am not that far into it yet, so there may be some obvious reason I've missed. I don't seem to find much discussion of this by either a quick forum or google search so it kinda seems likely, so if someone here with a better grasp on the lore than me could weigh in, it would be much appreciated!

Another thing to consider is that the heart structure of the black ajah prevents it from ever bringing 13 of its members together in one place.  It would need to fundamentally reform in order to make this work.  In order for the black ajah to make sense, we have to assume that for most of its history it was much smaller and weaker than the combined might of the good part of the white tower.  It had to rely on stealth and subterfuge, just to stay around.  Turning people would mean that the black ajah would have to transform itself from a distributed sleeper organization to a more unified and open organization.  That, in addition to the fact that turned people are potentially identifiable as noted above, would likely lead to an open confrontation between the black ajah and the remainder of the tower.  And that is a confrontation that the black ajah would almost certainly lose.  

 

While the BA has been around for a long time, it is only the very recent period starting around the time of New Spring where the BA is growing larger and stronger.  The shadow is also gathering forces for the last battle.  

 

Also of note, the turning process appears to potentially take a long time and not necessarily be something that could be done quietly.  I seem to remember that the attempt to turn Logain goes on for days and is unsuccessful.  It might not be so easy to do it covertly in the white tower.  Abducting lone Aes Sedai when they are travelling might be possible, but that would mean that 13 BA would need to leave and meet somewhere to do the turning.  

 

Also, warders.  A warder would sense when his Aes Sedai is being turned and would need to be abducted at the same time.  You couldn't turn the warder since he can't channel, so you would probably need to dispose of him.  That would draw more attention and things would get messy.  

[EirikDaude]

Those are all good points - maybe that last one about the warders is why there were more black sisters in the red ajah than in any other?

 

At any rate, according to the wiki, just over 20 % of the tower was black prior to the first book. That's not a small percentage, even if they were operating in separate cells. Yes they had to operate in secret, but holy crap that is a large slice of the tower! No wonder it didn't operate very well.

 

You are also correct that several attempts were used to turn Logain in the black tower, and that they all failed. So yeah, not as simple a process as one might think from initial descriptions of it.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:39 AM, EirikDaude said:

Those are all good points - maybe that last one about the warders is why there were more black sisters in the red ajah than in any other?

 

At any rate, according to the wiki, just over 20 % of the tower was black prior to the first book. That's not a small percentage, even if they were operating in separate cells. Yes they had to operate in secret, but holy crap that is a large slice of the tower! No wonder it didn't operate very well.

 

You are also correct that several attempts were used to turn Logain in the black tower, and that they all failed. So yeah, not as simple a process as one might think from initial descriptions of it.

Yeah that “failing to turn Logain” felt like BS artificially trying to create tension, which all fell a bit flat with me. I did like the idea that men turn women easily and vice versa but it that whole section of writing just feels very “hacky and cheap” to me anyway. 

[Aan-Alone]

Another unexplored reason...

 

Prior to the BT, only useable male channelers would have been the turned Aiel.  To make use of them, in addition to the reasons given above, RJ would have had to bring Shara into the story. 

 

Also, River of Souls left me with the impression the Sharans didn't normally/ever work with shadowspawn previously. This has me thinking how the first 13 or so Aiel dreadlords were turned. If 13 Aiel actually volunteered...that's disheartening and someone has toh.

 

As for a full fifth of the sisters being black and not sieze-ing control? I think the BA had a hand in every seat of power within the WT. Perhaps the BA felt they were as in control as they heeded to be while still being invisible. 

 

 

 

[EirikDaude]

I don't think they have to be male channelers. Without looking it up, I believe you can also use female channelers for the turning - might have to if they need to be in a circle, which I suspect they do...

[Delenn]

6 hours ago, EirikDaude said:

I don't think they have to be male channelers. Without looking it up, I believe you can also use female channelers for the turning - might have to if they need to be in a circle, which I suspect they do...

*pokes head in* I think it can go up to 12 or 13 women before they *must* add a male. Then 13 women, then a male. There was also something I remember about Fades having to be in on it. Not very practical.

 

In both Light and Shadow circles they have that limit for men to join. One note I saw I agreed that an Aes Sedai couldn't be turned without her Gaidin knowing, he might be able to hide it but unlikely. I think it's both or none. But they could be held hostage by the other's wellbeing. Turn one, capture the other.. and the Bond can be used to compel the Gaidin.... 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Delenn

[EirikDaude]

2 minutes ago, Delenn said:

*pokes head in* I think it can go up to 12 or 13 women before they *must* add a male. Then 13 women, then a male. There was also something I remember about Fades having to be in on it. Not very practical.

 

In both Light and Shadow circles they have that limit for men to join. One note I saw I agreed that an Aes Sedai couldn't be turned without her Gaidin knowing, he might be able to hide it but unlikely. I think it's both or none. But they could be held hostage by the other's wellbeing. Turn one, capture the other.. and the Bond can be used to compel the Gaidin.... 

Yeah, 13 channelers and 13 myrdraal, and something about filtering the flow through the myrdraal to cause the turning.

 

*sigh* I guess I should actually look it up:

 

Quote

Thirteen Dreadlords channel using thirteen Myrddraal as a filter. The combination of saidar or saidin, mixed with the Myrddraal's power, which is derived from the True Power, is able to shift the allegiance of any channeler to the Shadow against their will.

 

So nothing about actually needing to be a circle, but I guess it is implied that there needs to be both male and female channelers?

[Delenn]

2 minutes ago, EirikDaude said:

Yeah, 13 channelers and 13 myrdraal, and something about filtering the flow through the myrdraal to cause the turning.

 

*sigh* I guess I should actually look it up:

 

 

So nothing about actually needing to be a circle, but I guess it is implied that there needs to be both male and female channelers?

Check the Bowl of Winds passages if you really want regarding building circles, or later when it's practical. I am sure they talk about general circle limits there... Might be able to go on  building forever... I think one passage even implies that was part of what happened at the Bore. 🤔

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

As far as I remember, for as much as the Aes Sedai know, no men are necessary. 13 sisters from the BA fled the tower, the number that was dangerous for Rand. 

 

Which when you think about it is a little bit of a weak point. We hear that half of sisters (? not quite sure, but a significant number) are not resident in the Tower at any one time. Why would the Shadow not use some out of the Tower Black Sisters to hide their nefarious plan? Unless that was part of the plan from Ishamael's dreaming to entice the wonder girls into one of their many traps...

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, Delenn said:

Check the Bowl of Winds passages if you really want regarding building circles, or later when it's practical. I am sure they talk about general circle limits there... Might be able to go on  building forever... I think one passage even implies that was part of what happened at the Bore. 🤔

I think 72 is a full circle. But I should probably look it up rather than pulling the number from the top of my head. But if you aren't, I amn't 😛

 

[EirikDaude]

11 minutes ago, Delenn said:

Check the Bowl of Winds passages if you really want regarding building circles, or later when it's practical. I am sure they talk about general circle limits there... Might be able to go on  building forever... I think one passage even implies that was part of what happened at the Bore. 🤔

The quote is about what's needed for turning - and since both saidin and saidar is needed, that's why I think they need channelers of both sexes. I don't see a source on the wiki though, so I don't know what they are basing this on 🙂 And yeah, a full circle is 72 people.

[Delenn]

I think you implied it at the least, but I believe the Fades are the key, and since they are throwbacks and a rarity, it's not as pracaticle to gather that many, often. I read the flow through the dreadlords as a link.... I guess it could be a filter though.... 

Great memory on the 72 both!  ...  I couldn't remember the final count. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Delenn

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think the quote is a little bit poorly written. I think it means the combination of the Myddrals' True Power with either saidin or saidar provides the necessary flows. Otherwise it would say combination of saidin and saidar. It's a bit confusing, and is just a bit clumsy.

[Samt]

Any combination of 13 channelers (13 men, 13 women, or any mixture) plus 13 myrdraals can perform the turning ritual.  Women are better and turning men and men are better at turning women.  Since men can do it without any women, a circle is not required.  
 

Circles must contain more women than men.  The exception is that up to two men can be in a circle with only one or two women.  But to add a third man, you already need a fourth woman.  The strongest circles will generally have as close to a gender balance as possible while still having more women.  A circle cannot contain more than thirteen women without a man present and there is some additional detail about the minimum number of men required at each size circle.  Certain circles can only be lead by men, including a 72 person circle, which is the largest possible.  The strongest circle has 37 women and 35 men and is lead by a man.  Demandred created such a circle with the Sharon’s at the last battle while also using Sakarnen, allowing him to channel with incredible power.

 

It is unclear to me if the rules for circles are the same for creating and maintaining a circle.  Asmodean seems to imply to Rand that Lanfear could have created a circle with the two of them and then left the circle without destroying it.  Of course, he may have meant something different or may have just been lying.  

[wotfan4472]

Only a woman can start a circle. A man cannot.

 

The only other difference regarding circles that was not mentioned, was that a woman can be pulled into a large circle against her will, while a man cannot, even by a circle of 72 attempting it.

 

This, like all the other nuances, is entirely to do with the nature of saidar and saidin.

[Jsbrads2]

Yes, in the Tower the Black Ajah can easily kidnap another Aes Sedai, but there is no way for them to take the AS out of the tower or bring in Fades.

It would be harder to kidnap AS outside of the Tower. When the BA decided to reveal who 13 of them were it was for a major trap for the Dragon, not to catch one sister too early to be used in the Final Battle.

Turning people years before the Final Battle is too dangerous because they can’t hide who they are as well as the regular BA. Also once the Tower figures out people are being turned, the whole of the BA becomes at risk.

[Aan-Alone]

I never thought too deeply on the whole 'Turning' process. One channeller, directing their flows through a Fade and into the victim, x13. 13 evil wills vs one not. After so many hours, victim's will breaks down and is forcibly made a Shadow disciple.

 

Now I'm wondering if this imagining is a little too simplistic. Channelling Spirit through the Fade could attune the threads to something the DO might easily interact with. Then the victim goes on a head-trip. Something like a cross between the AS vacation rings and what Rand goes through battling the DO, where the victim chooses 'un-wisely', and somehow either loses their ability to choose between Light and Shadow? Or maybe loses their ability to distinguish between the two?

 

Had RJ finished the series, I feel we would have been clued in to Logain's struggles in this regard.

[Sabio]

As soon as a male showed signs of being able to channel the Red was sent after him.  So in many instances the Black would've had no chance to turn him,  since the Red is out looking for males.  Normally they would be sent to the tower which would make it impossible to kidnap them.  There was the chance of them accidently turning the Dragon which would've pissed Ishy off.  He killed of the head of the Black Ajah for sending Aes Sedai to gentle males on the spot.  

[EirikDaude]

On 3/7/2024 at 5:31 PM, Aan-Alone said:

I never thought too deeply on the whole 'Turning' process. One channeller, directing their flows through a Fade and into the victim, x13. 13 evil wills vs one not. After so many hours, victim's will breaks down and is forcibly made a Shadow disciple.

 

Now I'm wondering if this imagining is a little too simplistic. Channelling Spirit through the Fade could attune the threads to something the DO might easily interact with. Then the victim goes on a head-trip. Something like a cross between the AS vacation rings and what Rand goes through battling the DO, where the victim chooses 'un-wisely', and somehow either loses their ability to choose between Light and Shadow? Or maybe loses their ability to distinguish between the two?

 

Had RJ finished the series, I feel we would have been clued in to Logain's struggles in this regard.

Yeah, I am almost done with my re-read of the series, and the whole thing seems... more weird to me the more I think about it. 

 

The whole thing with removing free will but still sort of keeping your personality seems very strange, although I've gotta admit I don't get the same sense of strangeness when it comes to compulsion which in many ways seems kinda similar. 

 

For myself I think I'll just head-canon that it removes the soul of the person and replaces it with something else, which seems to mesh well enough with the concept of people seeing something strange in the eyes of people who have been turned...

 

I think I'll just settle for some of the things, especially in the first one or two and last few books, not being very well thought out and attempt to not be too drawn out of the story by them by overthinking 🙂

[Bugglesley]

Having just finished a re-read, the characters in Rand's "all good" Dark One dead world are said to basically all be "turned," but to the Light; it's explicitly compared as the same "wrongness" behind their eyes.

 

This, plus how Androl's chapters show turned Asha'man, makes me believe that in Randland humans are a dialectic, we have good and evil in our souls producing us. Turning permanently silences/removes the good and all that's left is your worst impulses with no redeeming emotions to counter them.

 

Compulsion is a whole other thing, it's a real complicated weave that messes with the chemistry of your physical brain (rather than your metaphysical soul) and affects your decisionmaking. We get to see a spectrum and variety of applications, from Grandeal's personality obliterating nerve staple overwrite, to more subtle/less powerful versions that Liandrin or Verin have that just push someone's decisionmaking in a direction they could have taken.

 

It all holds together fine imo. Turning and Compulsion add an extra dramatic layer where you can be betrayed by characters who absolutely have proven themselves trustworthy, and it adds an extra horrifying fate-worse-than-death threat to be deployed against our heroes themselves.

[Sabio]

Don;t forget only people the Shadow can turn are who can channel but anyone is vulnerable to compulsion.  So what is it about being able to channel that leaves one vulnerable?

[Bugglesley]

6 hours ago, Sabio said:

Don;t forget only people the Shadow can turn are who can channel but anyone is vulnerable to compulsion.  So what is it about being able to channel that leaves one vulnerable?

 

I would argue this naturally follows on the paradigm I laid out above; Compulsion works on anything with a human brain, since it's poking and prodding at your thoughts directly. Nyneave can Delve for it, and she "sees" it as a web sitting on your brain, poking at it. It's a weave that affects the physical world, like starting a fire or directing the wind.

 

Turning, on the other hand, slurps out part of your soul. It's not affecting the physical world directly, it's magic on magic. It's shown as much, much more difficult than Compulsion, and requires both the True Power/DO Energy (via the fades) and the OP through a large (evil fade version) circle of channelers. My guess would be that only people who can channel are "open" enough to those energies for the process to function and get at your soul.

 

A neato thing I just think I realized, I've always kind of wondered why 13? Shouldn't it depend on the strength of the channellers? And I think now the answer is that the limiting factor is the Myrddraal, they're made to a template and can only "channel" so much of the TP, and the weird TP circle rules say you need a 1:1 ratio. I wonder if Moridin with Callendor could turn someone on his own, weaving both together with enough strength.

Edited March 21 by Bugglesley