New user, came to vent.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

To be fair book 2 we see hints of it but don't truly see what he is able to do, and certainly have no idea that he will become the evil zombie making fog man he does at the very end, 

 

hmmmm maybe Rafe should just have him killed in Season 3 and be done with it 

End of Book 1 we get a glimpse of what Fain is that is supposed to be extremely unsettling.

And then he escapes. With the Dagger & Horn. And you see what he does to the Myrddraal. 

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

To be fair book 2 we see hints of it but don't truly see what he is able to do, and certainly have no idea that he will become the evil zombie making fog man he does at the very end, 

 

hmmmm maybe Rafe should just have him killed in Season 3 and be done with it 

 

Hints?  He corrupts everything around him in prison, act and talks like a madman, taunts Rand with a message written in blood, then nails a fade to a wall through its face...I think that's a little beyond hints...

[Mirefox]

This is kind of a stream of consciousness thought and I wasn't sure what thread to put it in, but I was watching this review of S1E8:

 

 

(By the way, it is a thoughtful and well-edited review with a couple jump cuts that made me chuckle.)

 

...when a thought occurred to me; we often discuss book-readers and non-book readers but there is a third category, or possibly a sub-category of book reader, who have read the books enough to stay ahead of the show but haven't read enough to know full story and character arc.  It creates an interesting perspective that I haven't considered in the past.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 9/26/2023 at 5:09 PM, WheelofJuke said:

This very much sums up where I stand on the matter; however, I decided not to give S2 a go...I literally pulled it up the night of release, looked at it paused and ready to go for like 10 minutes just staring...and then said, nah I got too much other stuff going for me right now. 😛😄

 

 

That is nearly 100% of how my experience went with Season 1.   Flipped it on for 5 minutes.  Got confused on why it was called Wheel of Time as it appeared to be something completely different.  Turned it on again later and right back off after Rand and Egwene did the horizontal mambo.   It took them 15 minutes to show they missed the entire point of the books.  

 

Some people here like it which is great.  When I talk to people at work and friends who watch things like GoT and Foundation they are either like what is Wheel of Time?, or watched it and thought it was forgettable, or couldn't get into it.  There were no people I talked to that liked it and they watch other fantasy and SciFi shows.  Some binge watched it because they were bored, but thought it was generic at best. 

 

On the positive side I'm now going through the books on audio and remembering how good they are.  Full disclosure I gave up after the 1000th pov side character was introduced in book 7 or 8, but am now jazzed to finish.  I last read them 20 years ago with the exception of the comic which was about 5 years ago or so.  

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:39 AM, grayavatar said:

My metric is my experience watching the show. It was slow and boring, also illogical, inconsistent, cringy and ridiculous. Season 2 was even more so. Long overly dramatic emotional scenes about nonsense took up most of the season when it should have had a much faster pace. It was a drama when it should have been an adventure.

 

Also I don't put much stock in sites like Rotten Tomatoes or IMDB ratings and neither should you.

 

I have to agree with this point.  For certain shows the numbers tend to get skewed, but you can absolutely tell that Amazon sent people out in force to plant many positive reviews of the show when S2 dropped.  Same as they did for S1 and Rings of Power (another Amazon stinker).  Too many generically positive  10/10 reviews citing things like great adaptation and don't listen to the haters.   They also keep the ratio at a certain 3.x or 7.x ratio.  As soon as enough real reviews come in to drop the score a half dozen generic fake 10/10 reviews show up to bring it back up.

 

First if you don't like haters don't listen to them.  There are definitely some of those reviews that are off base and some people are just there to be negative.  They don't add much value, but neither do fake positive reviews.  

 

Second I'm truly baffled at people who think this show is a good adaptation.  I have no problem with people liking the show, but to think it is a good adaptation is a bit of a stretch.  

[RitualM]

8 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

I have to agree with this point.  For certain shows the numbers tend to get skewed, but you can absolutely tell that Amazon sent people out in force to plant many positive reviews of the show when S2 dropped.  Same as they did for S1 and Rings of Power (another Amazon stinker).  Too many generically positive  10/10 reviews citing things like great adaptation and don't listen to the haters.   They also keep the ratio at a certain 3.x or 7.x ratio.  As soon as enough real reviews come in to drop the score a half dozen generic fake 10/10 reviews show up to bring it back up.

 

First if you don't like haters don't listen to them.  There are definitely some of those reviews that are off base and some people are just there to be negative.  They don't add much value, but neither do fake positive reviews.  

 

Second I'm truly baffled at people who think this show is a good adaptation.  I have no problem with people liking the show, but to think it is a good adaptation is a bit of a stretch.  

It's not just a bad adaptation. It's poorly written, inconsistent and lazy. Most of the time it feels like they stuck scenes rom the books together and then realized they needed context so wrote in a few lines and a scene to explain it. 

Overall their choices have been a disgrace to the original text. Raf should be black listed from ever working on fantasy again. The finale of S2 was so awful I barely have words for it. It would have been so simple to make it better it hurts me that someone got paid to write something so awful and call it wheel of time.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, RitualM said:

Overall their choices have been a disgrace to the original text. Raf should be black listed from ever working on fantasy again.

Again. Please stop with the ad hominem attacks. Posts with this type of language will be flagged moving forward. If you can't express your opinion without this level of vitriol, please find somewhere else to post.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

That is nearly 100% of how my experience went with Season 1.   Flipped it on for 5 minutes.  Got confused on why it was called Wheel of Time as it appeared to be something completely different.  Turned it on again later and right back off after Rand and Egwene did the horizontal mambo.   It took them 15 minutes to show they missed the entire point of the books.  

Do you mean you have not even watched the show? Just seems to be what you are saying.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 10/8/2023 at 3:00 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Yes it does. Those that evaluated both seasons preferred season 2. It’s just not mathematically significant. 
 

I’m not saying it’s proof, I’m saying it is evidence. Those things are not the same. 

I appreciate both of your back and forth as it is well argued.  

 

Let me point out that using Season 2 ratings as evidence isn't really useful right now due to a lack of sample size.  There is such a small sample it actually points to statistical dilution as represented earlier.   That makes it hard to draw conclusions as your sample set isn't drawing from the same pool as season 1 so you can't really have a direct correlation.  

 

What it may be pointing to is the fact that many viewers didn't pick back up for whatever reason.  We will have to wait and see when the final numbers come out.  

 

[RitualM]

50 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Again. Please stop with the ad hominem attacks. Posts with this type of language will be flagged moving forward. If you can't express your opinion without this level of vitriol, please find somewhere else to post.

What do you mean again? There was no first time....

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, RitualM said:

What do you mean again? There was no first time....

Again, meaning that I have said this on the forum several times. Not necessarily directed at you personally.

[fra85uk]

Maybe it was salty language but i don't see it as ad hominem attack.

Probably Rafe is a marvellous human being, salt of the earth etc. etc. but I think it is still fine to express that opinion that I would instantly swap him with a random user of this forum as a showrunner of WoT (with a few exceptions @Elder_Haman 😝)

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Maybe it was salty language but i don't see it as ad hominem attack.

It's calling him a "disgrace" and the call for black listing that will get me riled up as a mod.

[fra85uk]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It's calling him a "disgrace" and the call for black listing that will get me riled up as a mod.

 

 

Technically he said that "Overall their choices have been a disgrace to the original text. ", not that he is a disgrace himself (at most a disgrace bringer 🙃)

 As for the blacklist, Well, I would black list the coach of my team from professional football (the real football, not the US one played with hands). 🙄
I don't think it is ad hominem attack to hope that someone whose work you don't like will never touch an IP that you love.

When Netflix announced One Piece, I would have been still in hospital for heart attack if at the voice "Showrunner" I would have read "Rafe Judkins" 🤣 but that does not mean I hate him. I wish for him a successful career of original and adapted TV-show, preferably not from books/Ips I like 🙂

[RitualM]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Again, meaning that I have said this on the forum several times. Not necessarily directed at you personally.

It reads as if I had been warned previously. Either way even Sanderson, while being very diplomatic, was clearly very disappointed with the s2 finale and quite a few of the writing choices made. 

[Jake Sykwalker]

34 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Do you mean you have not even watched the show? Just seems to be what you are saying.

 

You are correct.  I have watched more of the show through other people doing break downs than I have of the show on Amazon.  The first episode was THAT bad.  I was going to go back and give it a chance until S1 E8 came out and I have no intention of watching it after that travesty.  There is literally no excuse for what they put on screen other than malice or laziness.  COVID didn't make them completely alter the final battle there and after S2 E8 they just confirmed they are going to keep on doing it. 

 

I have had fun watching things from people like The Sword and Pen reflections among others so have seen many scenes from the show.  In no way have those scenes made me want to go back and give it a chance.  

 

I'm assuming the reply will be how can you judge the show without watching the whole thing?  The  answer is easy.  If I bite into a steak and find out it is actually tofu without seasoning and I don't finish it it the reason is because I ordered steak.  I'm not offended by people who like tofu (I even like it with seasoning and vegetables), but when I order steak I expect steak.   In this case I ordered Wheel of Time and got something else. 

 

This whole trend of updating for modern audiences, or subverting expectations is getting old.  The reason why people like classic works is because of the works themselves.  When you give them something else why are you surprised when they don't like it?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

22 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

You are correct.  I have watched more of the show through other people doing break downs than I have of the show on Amazon.  The first episode was THAT bad.  I was going to go back and give it a chance until S1 E8 came out and I have no intention of watching it after that travesty.  There is literally no excuse for what they put on screen other than malice or laziness.  COVID didn't make them completely alter the final battle there and after S2 E8 they just confirmed they are going to keep on doing it. 

 

I have had fun watching things from people like The Sword and Pen reflections among others so have seen many scenes from the show.  In no way have those scenes made me want to go back and give it a chance.  

 

I'm assuming the reply will be how can you judge the show without watching the whole thing?  The  answer is easy.  If I bite into a steak and find out it is actually tofu without seasoning and I don't finish it it the reason is because I ordered steak.  I'm not offended by people who like tofu (I even like it with seasoning and vegetables), but when I order steak I expect steak.   In this case I ordered Wheel of Time and got something else. 

 

This whole trend of updating for modern audiences, or subverting expectations is getting old.  The reason why people like classic works is because of the works themselves.  When you give them something else why are you surprised when they don't like it?

No, I am quite sure you would not enjoy show. 

 

Though I do not see why you appear to be attempting to speak for the whole of the community who enjoy the book. You are taking your opinion and applying it to everyone. You are wondering why anyone could think it is a good adaptation, but you are so sure of your opinion that I don't think you will manage to see someone else's perspective. 

 

If watching a few minutes can convince you that they have not understood the books, that would appear to speak volumes of how you view the books, far more than anything it might say about the show itself.

 

I am enjoying seeing the books be brought to life, I am enjoying the actors' performances overall and I am very happy that they are making the show and hope that they make the full series and that they might allowed to have more/longer episodes per season. That does not mean that I agree with everything the show is doing, far from it, and some of it is very frustrating. But I cannot say the books were different, and the show per se has a lot of stuff to deal with with the funding, time limits, need to keep number of locations down, etc, etc, before you even start on the artistic decisions. And I can disagree with those decisions without insulting anyone, or feeling cheated. 

[Jake Sykwalker]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

No, I am quite sure you would not enjoy show. 

 

Though I do not see why you appear to be attempting to speak for the whole of the community who enjoy the book. You are taking your opinion and applying it to everyone. You are wondering why anyone could think it is a good adaptation, but you are so sure of your opinion that I don't think you will manage to see someone else's perspective. 

 

If watching a few minutes can convince you that they have not understood the books, that would appear to speak volumes of how you view the books, far more than anything it might say about the show itself.

 

I am enjoying seeing the books be brought to life, I am enjoying the actors' performances overall and I am very happy that they are making the show and hope that they make the full series and that they might allowed to have more/longer episodes per season. That does not mean that I agree with everything the show is doing, far from it, and some of it is very frustrating. But I cannot say the books were different, and the show per se has a lot of stuff to deal with with the funding, time limits, need to keep number of locations down, etc, etc, before you even start on the artistic decisions. And I can disagree with those decisions without insulting anyone, or feeling cheated. 

 

I'm not speaking about people's enjoyment of the show.  I have freely admitted that I do not like it and have no problem with people that do.

 

What you are doing is conflating objective truth to opinion.  

 

Liking the show or not is opinion.  

 

Saying it isn't a good adaptation is objective truth.  This shouldn't be a point of contention.  You may rationalize the changes and may be ok with them, but they still exist and are many.  Change is ok and expected.  Changing main plots and characters to the point where it isn't coherent to the larger narrative is why Amazon's WoT it isn't a good adaptation.  Even if people like the changes.

 

The 1978 Bakshi Lord of the Rings was nearly a 1:1 adaptation of the books dialog wise, but it is extremely mixed if people like it.  Peter Jackson changes way more in his adaptation, but it kept the spirit of the books alive and people consider it one of the best examples of a fantasy adaptation.  

 

Saying the writing is low quality is objective truth.  That really shouldn't be a point of contention either.  In no universe is the writing on this show good.  People may like it, but it isn't good.

 

People need to get past the need to say something is objectively good because they like it.  I like many shows that aren't good writing.  I liked Ready Player One the book.  The writing in that book is objectively not good, but I enjoyed it.  That movie while ok wasn't a good adaptation either though it didn't seem to go out of its way to twist the entire story. 

 

I liked the original dune 1985 movie as well because I was younger and hadn't read the books yet.  Doesn't mean that it wasn't fairly poorly written and very cringe.  It did at least try to stay true to the story if by taking way to many short cuts to fit into a 2+ hour movie.  They freely admit this when they talk about it.  That is why they had the Irulan voice over added to the beginning.  Which seems to be copied by everybody now.  😄

 

 

 

 

 

[DigificWriter]

6 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

Saying it isn't a good adaptation is objective truth

 

6 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

Saying the writing is low quality is objective truth

 

A

[RitualM]

9 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

 

A

But it is a bad adaptation and bad writing

........

[DigificWriter]

10 minutes ago, RitualM said:

But it is a bad adaptation and bad writing

 

In your opinion

[RitualM]

2 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

In your opinion

Nope as he said, objective fact. If you objectively look at the writing and adaptation choices they are bad from many many levels.

Anyone who can't see that is in denial and I'm not sure why you would want to defend such horrible writing and adaptation choices. Sanderson himself pointed out tons in just a few minutes. It's poorly done on almost all levels. The only positive thing about the show is a few actors putting out some good performances.

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

8 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

Saying it isn't a good adaptation is objective truth. 

In my opinion, you are misusing the word "good". The show is an adaptation of the book, whether it is good or not is subjective. I think you are meaning "faithful" or "true to the source" or some such.

 

Many seem to underestimate the difficulties in turning a book into a series, and treat it as if it is only a case of abridging the book so that it is less pages. But it has to be simplified in many ways well before you reach that point, such as the number of locations, the number of active characters, etc. I don't pretend that I understand it all.

 

And the first book had to be changed a lot. The book teases the idea of the Dragon in a way the show could never as it has to come out and publicise that the show is about the Dragon reborn. Also even people that like the books very often claim that they would never have continued reading after the first book if not for reasons such as already owning the sequels. I know at least one rabid fantasy fan who gave up after a few books. We also can be pretty much certain that if RJ was writing the books knowing that it would 14 books long, that the beginning would have been completely different. So the idea that the show should adapt the books in a way captures all the bad things, the cliches, the things that put off even the most ardent of fans, could be taken as slightly controversial.

 

Anyway each person will have a different idea of what makes a good adaptation, which yes is different than a good TV show, but they are undeniably related.

 

That you and other fans of the books are disappointed, is sad. I can feel that disappointment myself. But amongst the negatives there are also positives that can be enjoyed, and some of it in my eyes, is spectacular. To wallow in the negativity does no one any favours, at worst, just let it go, why torture yourself? 

 

The video Mirefox linked above for example (I only watched a few minutes of it) appears to be two hours of someone criticizing every single second of the episode. Someone who does not seem very insightful, full of pronouncements of "you just cannot do that". Maybe that was only the section I watched, but it seemed to be the pattern. Why would anyone subject themselves to two hours of watching that? Two hours of someone saying, this is awful and that is awful, and this does not work, and here is a funny little image with Rafe's head stuck on it, and that is stupid, and I don't like this... I am not sure that I can imagine anything better explains what an echo chamber is. Which is really annoying for those of us that want to discuss the show, the good and the bad, to be constantly confronted by such two-dimensional opinions about how awful everything is.

[Scarloc99]

18 hours ago, Mirefox said:

 

Hints?  He corrupts everything around him in prison, act and talks like a madman, taunts Rand with a message written in blood, then nails a fade to a wall through its face...I think that's a little beyond hints...

I meant we don't see what his goal is or that he is truly separated from the dark lord and something new, even in killing the Fade on first read through I was not 100% if that was for or against the dark lord. 

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Maybe it was salty language but i don't see it as ad hominem attack.

Probably Rafe is a marvellous human being, salt of the earth etc. etc. but I think it is still fine to express that opinion that I would instantly swap him with a random user of this forum as a showrunner of WoT (with a few exceptions @Elder_Haman 😝)

I think the kind of show that some on here would want to see whould end up being an atrocious mess of long exposition followed by cuts from scene to scene with no real character development or growth, a confused mess of a story that even book fans would watch and hate. 

making a TV show is not easy, you might want all sorts of things on screen but you have a budget, you have time restrictions and you have limitations. Lord of the Rings took 438 days pretty much filming every day, it took 7 film units, 150 locations and peter jackson monitoring each unit remotely via satellite feed. He was constantly re writing the script and ony got about 4 hours of sleep a night. 

 

WOT does not have that budget, it does not have that amount of time, 438 days to make 9 hours of movie. So decisions have to be made as to what can be shot, what locations can be used, where to spend the money on effects. That then feeds into the creative choices. 

I would love to see "almost anyone" on this board have a go at making that al come together in something passably looking like WOT lol. You might not like the WOT tv show, that is your personal opinion, there are many many who do, who think it is a really good show, that might confuse you but, guess what, its opinion there is no right or wrong here. What is a fact is that a human being does not pick up a project like WOT intending to use it as a vanity project, trying to prove they are a "better writer" or  "wanting to tank the show". Have mistakes been made, yes, in my opinion minor ones that in the grand scheme of things don't stop it from being one of the best fantasy shows on TV at the moment.

 

Is season 2 an improvement, yes, where changes always going to need to be made, yes, and is there a version of this show that makes everyone, book reader and non book reader happy all at the same time. Absolutely not, there is no way this show could be adapted and make everyone happy with everything. A version that stuck "closer to the books" whatever that means would probably have tanked with non book reading audiences and that would have killed the show 100%.