Aes Sedai aging

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Regarding the liandrin face caress, if I was on the receiving end of such a thing from anyone besides my SO or a beloved family member, I’d be too shocked, confused and uncomfortable to respond. But I’m an introvert and not sophisticated in the ways of manipulation and scheming and power moves. 

 

You might not be able to consciously respond in such a situation, but I'm willing to bet that, to an outside observer, your body language would betray your thoughts.

 

I hadn't ever even considered @Scarloc99's interpretation because there's nothing in the scene between Moiraine and Liandrin as presented onscreen that even remotely hints at discomfort on Moiraine's end.

[Scarloc99]

28 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

You might not be able to consciously respond in such a situation, but I'm willing to bet that, to an outside observer, your body language would betray your thoughts.

 

I hadn't ever even considered @Scarloc99's interpretation because there's nothing in the scene between Moiraine and Liandrin as presented onscreen that even remotely hints at discomfort on Moiraine's end.

2 things to note here, first Aes Sedai are trained to never show any outward sign of emotion, unless they want to to force some effect. In the books there are moments where Aes Sedai who get emotional (for the death of a warder for instance) are almost shunned by there sisters and left to just get on with it in there own privacy. 

Second, Moiraine is one of the very best at controlling her own emotions, she takes that stoic expression to new hights, so this entire scene I took as showing her character, that she is not intimidated at all, even by an Aes Sedai who the audience has seen has a lot of power (both in the power and politically), Liandrin tried to intimidate her to tell her what she knew and out the boys, and she just shrugged it off as if it was nothing. 

[Elder_Haman]

On 9/9/2023 at 12:24 PM, DigificWriter said:

justifying the level of intimacy that Liandrin caressing Moiraine's cheek in Season 1 implies

See I never read it as intimate at all. I saw it as Liandrin being one of those creepy people who has no respect for personal space. It was meant to demean Moiraine, treating her like a child.

[DaddyFinn]

19 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

In the books Liandrin is in her 30's or 40's and Moraine is much much older

Moiraine is in her 40's in the books. She became Accepted at ~19 years old and Aes Sedai at ~22 years old. She was Accepted during the Aiel War which was ~20 years from book 1

[Guire]

So what is Moraine, Siuan, and Alanna's age range? This might really affect their roles in  Aiel War and Mo and Lan's relationship dynamic.  Also Mo/Siu would have been in a fairly long relationship prior to foretelling that put them on down low.  Would there have been any reason for them to have a hidden relationship before Dragon Mission?

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Moiraine is in her 40's in the books. She became Accepted at ~19 years old and Aes Sedai at ~22 years old. She was Accepted during the Aiel War which was ~20 years from book 1

Apologies I don't know where I got into my head she was older then that. Thankyou for fixing it.

[Scarloc99]

40 minutes ago, Guire said:

So what is Moraine, Siuan, and Alanna's age range? This might really affect their roles in  Aiel War and Mo and Lan's relationship dynamic.  Also Mo/Siu would have been in a fairly long relationship prior to foretelling that put them on down low.  Would there have been any reason for them to have a hidden relationship before Dragon Mission?

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/ages-of-characters.html

Just found this handy link 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/ages-of-characters.html

Just found this handy link 

Show ages are different.  Mo has a 5-10 year younger sister in her late 60s.  Book Mo is mid to late 40s.  Show Mo 20 plus years older.  If Aiel war 20 years ago marks Gitara fortelling she spent 20 extra years in tower possibly all with Siuan.  Also she is now a few decades older than Lan instead of slightly younger. And she would have probably been actively involved in Aiel War.

[Storeebooq]

10 minutes ago, Guire said:

Show ages are different.  Mo has a 5-10 year younger sister in her late 60s.  Book Mo is mid to late 40s.  Show Mo 20 plus years older.  If Aiel war 20 years ago marks Gitara fortelling she spent 20 extra years in tower possibly all with Siuan.  Also she is now a few decades older than Lan instead of slightly younger. And she would have probably been actively involved in Aiel War.

In the portrait in Mo's room, it seemed to show her being at least in her late teens or older so (definitely not a child or adolescent), and her sister said "it's been six decades" since she saw her last, so I bet Mo's at minimum in her 70's. 

 

And I think show Liandrin is much older too. According to the blog she was 36 (which made sense to how impulsive and immature she was in the books)..where'as the show version had a son who was between 80-90 at least (according to her speech to Nyn), so she has to be close to or over 100 at the least.

 

I like that they aged up the Aes Sedai in the show. They already had aged up the Two Rivers kids by a few years, so it fits in the scale.

[DigificWriter]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

So what is Moraine, Siuan, and Alanna's age range? This might really affect their roles in  Aiel War and Mo and Lan's relationship dynamic.  Also Mo/Siu would have been in a fairly long relationship prior to foretelling that put them on down low.  Would there have been any reason for them to have a hidden relationship before Dragon Mission?

 

Per Rosamund Pike, Show!Moiraine is in her 70s, which, by proxy, also puts Show!Alanna and Show!Siuan in their 70s because Season 1 dialogue and onscreen interaction established the three characters - Moiraine, Siuan, and Alanna - as having been Novices at the same time.

 

The presumption among many (but apparently not all) within the fandom had been that Show!Liandrin had also been a Novice at the same time as Moiraine and that the two of them had had some kind of intimate relationship in the past, but Season 2 has disproven the first part of that presumption.

[Guire]

Just now, DigificWriter said:

 

Per Rosamund Pike, Show!Moiraine is in her 70s, which, by proxy, also puts Show!Alanna and Show!Siuan in their 70s because Season 1 dialogue and onscreen interaction established the three characters - Moiraine, Siuan, and Alanna - as having been Novices at the same time.

 

The presumption among many (but apparently not all) within the fandom had been that Show!Liandrin had also been a Novice at the same time as Moiraine and that the two of them had had some kind of intimate relationship in the past, but Season 2 has disproven the first part of that presumption.

Good info.  I wonder if her extra years were spent as novice/accepted or if she had  few decades as full Aes Sedai.  I also wonder if Liandrin and Moraine had kind of weird Dom/sub relationship as part of Moraines training.  If Liandrin is slightly older and became Aes Sedai earlier she may have been working to get Mo to reach her full potential similar to her mentorship of Nynaeve.  Mo would also have been a highly sought after recruit for black ajah because of strength and family background.

[DigificWriter]

10 minutes ago, Guire said:

Good info.  I wonder if her extra years were spent as novice/accepted or if she had  few decades as full Aes Sedai.  I also wonder if Liandrin and Moraine had kind of weird Dom/sub relationship as part of Moraines training.  If Liandrin is slightly older and became Aes Sedai earlier she may have been working to get Mo to reach her full potential similar to her mentorship of Nynaeve.  Mo would also have been a highly sought after recruit for black ajah because of strength and family background.

 

This comment just made me think of something: the story that Moiraine tells Rand in Episode 1x08 about an Aes Sedai beating her with the One Power in order to get her to channel could possibly have been about Liandrin.

 

It doesn't explain the intimacy that many fans saw in her touching Moiraine's face, but it's still a fascinating notion.

Edited September 11, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Storeebooq]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This comment just made me think of something: the story that Moiraine tells Rand in Episode 1x08 about an Aes Sedai beating her with the One Power in order to get her to channel could possibly have been about Liandrin.

 

It doesn't explain the intimacy that many fans saw in her touching Moiraine's face, but it's still a fascinating notion.

Liandrin's treatment of Nyn seems to support this. I wonder if she was also originally trying to coax Mo into the Red Ajah too 

[DigificWriter]

 

5 minutes ago, Storeebooq said:

Liandrin's treatment of Nyn seems to support this. I wonder if she was also originally trying to coax Mo into the Red Ajah too 

 

Beating Moiraine with the One Power and calling it helping is definitely something that fits Show!Liandrin's more nuanced, less black-and-white characterization, but the idea hadn't occurred to me until now because the implication had, as noted, been that she and Moiraine had been Novices at the same time.

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This comment just made me think of something: the story that Moiraine tells Rand in Episode 1x08 about an Aes Sedai beating her with the One Power in order to get her to channel could possibly have been about Liandrin.

 

It doesn't explain the intimacy that many fans saw in her touching Moiraine's face, but it's still a fascinating notion.

That explains it a lot more, the creepy stroke of a teacher with her favoured, but wayward pupil, I have gone back and rewatched that scene and really don't see anything that suggests they where in a relationship at all, it is to creepy and just a little bit evil. My wife who has never read the books agreed as well when I told her she actually laughed and said that is a stupid suposition it is clear Liandrin and Moiraine have never really liked each other and Liandrin is just creepy as F 

[Guire]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

That explains it a lot more, the creepy stroke of a teacher with her favoured, but wayward pupil, I have gone back and rewatched that scene and really don't see anything that suggests they where in a relationship at all, it is to creepy and just a little bit evil. My wife who has never read the books agreed as well when I told her she actually laughed and said that is a stupid suposition it is clear Liandrin and Moiraine have never really liked each other and Liandrin is just creepy as F 

I always assumed Liandrin was instructor that beat her.  I do think that Liandrin does have feelings for Mo and Nyn in show world.  She is a very self centered power hungry person who believes her view of the world and men as the problem is the correct view.  She needs powerful allies to achieve her goals and seems to want allies/tools in her journey.  But at this level of narcissism and this far into her life any person or bond is subservient to gaining power because she is the one who knows how to use it.  Basically she is 3/4 of the worlds politicians and upper business elite.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

23 minutes ago, Guire said:

I always assumed Liandrin was instructor that beat her.  I do think that Liandrin does have feelings for Mo and Nyn in show world.  She is a very self centered power hungry person who believes her view of the world and men as the problem is the correct view.  She needs powerful allies to achieve her goals and seems to want allies/tools in her journey.  But at this level of narcissism and this far into her life any person or bond is subservient to gaining power because she is the one who knows how to use it.  Basically she is 3/4 of the worlds politicians and upper business elite.

Interesting insights. So in your view, is liandrins narcissism/self interest entirely complete or when you say that you think she does have feelings for moiraine and nyn in show that you think she’s capable of experiencing genuine feelings for others, at least on some level? And what do you make of her emotional reactions in other scenarios such as her son?  Do you buy it or do you suspect that she has no capacity for authentic displays of emotion and rather is putting on a performance based on her own personal motivations? I’ve heard convincing opinions on both sides but I’m not certain yet of the current intent of her character 

[Guire]

6 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Interesting insights. So in your view, is liandrins narcissism/self interest entirely complete or when you say that you think she does have feelings for moiraine and nyn in show that you think she’s capable of experiencing genuine feelings for others, at least on some level? And what do you make of her emotional reactions in other scenarios such as her son?  Do you buy it or do you suspect that she has no capacity for authentic displays of emotion and rather is putting on a performance based on her own personal motivations? I’ve heard convincing opinions on both sides but I’m not certain yet of the current intent of her character 

I think she can have genuine affection but it is so twisted by her own self importance that it is almost unrecognizable.  So son might be real. But probably really needed a therapist and lots of meds besides crimsonthorn.

[DigificWriter]

Despite the urge from some people to view her as such, Show!Liandrin is not a black-and-white baddie (nor should she be), and there's clearly affection for certain people in her behavior and demeanor, whatever else she might say or do.

 

Her being the Aes Sedai who beat Moiraine to get her past her channeling block actually starts to make more and more logical sense the more I think about it, so now that's the theory I'm running with until/unless the show does or says something different.

 

As far as the face touch goes in light of the Instructor theory, I still see affection in it where others apparently see a creep factor, but to each their own, I guess.

[Guire]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Despite the urge from some people to view her as such, Show!Liandrin is not a black-and-white baddie (nor should she be), and there's clearly affection for certain people in her behavior and demeanor, whatever else she might say or do.

 

Her being the Aes Sedai who beat Moiraine to get her past her channeling block actually starts to make more and more logical sense the more I think about it, so now that's the theory I'm running with until/unless the show does or says something different.

 

As far as the face touch goes in light of the Instructor theory, I still see affection in it where others apparently see a creep factor, but to each their own, I guess.

Showing affection to someone who doesnt desire it is about as nuanced creepy as it gets.  Think a mother who abuses her children but expects constant affirmation and physical affection from a child.  

[DigificWriter]

The scene as presented is devoid of anything that counters the overt intimacy of the face touch itself with any overt or subtle communication of malice or intimidation.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Despite the urge from some people to view her as such, Show!Liandrin is not a black-and-white baddie (nor should she be), and there's clearly affection for certain people in her behavior and demeanor, whatever else she might say or do.

 

Her being the Aes Sedai who beat Moiraine to get her past her channeling block actually starts to make more and more logical sense the more I think about it, so now that's the theory I'm running with until/unless the show does or says something different.

 

As far as the face touch goes in light of the Instructor theory, I still see affection in it where others apparently see a creep factor, but to each their own, I guess.

You might be right, but also please accept you might be wrong, will you be disappointed if, when asked about her "son" she laughs at nyn and tells her he wasn't her son, just part of the lie I weaved. Will you be dissapointed if it turns out she is just evil? She has been planning for months to send the girls to Falme to be turned into slaves, how is that not evil? 

[DigificWriter]

1 minute ago, Scarloc99 said:

Will you be dissapointed if it turns out she is just evil?

 

Yes, because doing so wouldn't make practical narrative sense given the choices made thus far.

 

It's possible to make a one-dimensional villain compelling, but you have to be upfront about them being one-dimensional, which has not been the case here despite you and the people you've discussed the show with feeling otherwise.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

Just now, DigificWriter said:

 

Yes, because doing so wouldn't make practical narrative sense given the choices made thus far.

 

It's possible to make a one-dimensional villain compelling, but you have to be upfront about them being one-dimensional, which has not been the case here despite you and the people you've discussed the show with feeling otherwise.

 

 

She can still be multi dimensional, I mean, putting together a lie that intricate and detailed for reasons is certainly not one dimensional, but it then means you have to go back and revisit every action she has had, and maybe see them all in a different light. End of the day we will have to WAFO but I think you are trying to see the good in a character who has no redeemable qualities. 

[DigificWriter]

4 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I think you are trying to see the good in a character who has no redeemable qualities. 

 

And I think you're ignoring the show's clear demonstration that she does have some redeemable qualities.

 

We're clearly at loggerheads here and just going around in circles, so it's probably best to just amicably agree to disagree and move on.

 

🙂