WoT Season 2 - I WATCHED ALL THE EPISODES TOPIC

[Yamezt]

18 hours ago, trw1972 said:

Another long term reader here who registered just to discuss the show with other readers - i may have had a membership years ago, i used to spend a lot of time on wotmania and theoryland back in the day.

Me too! 

 

I am surprised I still had my Dragonmount account LOL - decided to login to see what people think after binging of S2 (i waited till all episodes are up before I sub to prime).

 

S2 was a fun ride - I enjoyed more than S1. Though to be fair, I hated Eye of the World. I always thought eotw was an awful book. So the adaptation probably reasonated less with me. The ONLY reason i got through eye of the world was that I already bought the subsequent books and gritted my teeth through it.

 

Enjoyed book 2 onwards (and actually love the dreaded 7-11 books - no accounting my awful taste in books!)

Edited October 10, 2023 by Yamezt

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Me too! 

 

I am surprised I still had my Dragonmount account LOL - decided to login to see what people think after binging of S2 (i waited till all episodes are up before I sub to prime).

 

S2 was a fun ride - I enjoyed more than S1. Though to be fair, I hated Eye of the World. I always thought eotw was an awful book. So the adaptation probably reasonated less with me. The ONLY reason i got through eye of the world was that I already bought the subsequent books and gritted my teeth through it.

 

Enjoyed book 2 onwards (and actually love the dreaded 7-11 books - no accounting my awful taste in books!)

7-11 are some of my fav books as well, in fact my love of the series is a bell curve, book 1 for me is one of the weakest, followed then by Sandersons 3, then 2 and 3 so yes the 6 books that bookend the series for me are the weakest of the series, and yest I keep coming back lol. 

[ilovezam]

Not sure if this is been posted around here yet, but Rafe seems to have semi-confirmed the Power Rangers theory in this new interview here with the last question, that the Dragon was "all of them". This also explains how ineffectual Rand has been across both seasons.

 

https://ew.com/tv/the-wheel-of-time-season-2-finale-showrunner-interview/

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

7 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Not sure if this is been posted around here yet, but Rafe seems to have semi-confirmed the Power Rangers theory in this new interview here with the last question, that the Dragon was "all of them". This also explains how ineffectual Rand has been across both seasons.

 

https://ew.com/tv/the-wheel-of-time-season-2-finale-showrunner-interview/

I don't see how his answer is any different the three ta'veren in the books being necessary, and Moiraine, Egwene, Min, Aviendha, Elayne, Birgitte, Lan, Nynaeve, Tam... The Dragon was the one facing the Dark One, but he could not do it alone. He did not say they were all the Dragon, but they were all the world-saving force. 

[ilovezam]

Just now, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't see how his answer is any different the three ta'veren in the books being necessary, and Moiraine, Egwene, Min, Aviendha, Elayne, Birgitte, Lan, Nynaeve, Tam... The Dragon was the one facing the Dark One, but he could not do it alone. He did not say they were all the Dragon, but they were all the world-saving force. 

I mean he... answered "Yeah" to the question "Doesn't it feel like "The Dragon," this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about, is really all of them?"

Where "this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about" is the appositive beside the noun "The Dragon".

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

6 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I mean he... answered "Yeah" to the question "Doesn't it feel like "The Dragon," this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about, is really all of them?"

Where "this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about" is the appositive beside the noun "The Dragon".

They are the world-saving force, not they are all Lews Therin Telamon reborn. It is a possible widening of what the Dragon is as a concept, something the books completely ignore, not who Rand is, or who is called the Dragon, but what the Dragon is at a base level.

Edited October 10, 2023 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Mirefox]

34 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Not sure if this is been posted around here yet, but Rafe seems to have semi-confirmed the Power Rangers theory in this new interview here with the last question, that the Dragon was "all of them". This also explains how ineffectual Rand has been across both seasons.

 

https://ew.com/tv/the-wheel-of-time-season-2-finale-showrunner-interview/

I get a page not found error on that link.

 

It might be referring to the pages that Rafe Judkins gets his lore from.

[EmreY]

It was never about Rand.

[ilovezam]

18 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I get a page not found error on that link.

Strange. Here's the content of that page:

 

Quote

Warning: This article contains spoilers for the season 2 finale of The Wheel of Time, "What Was Meant To Be."

How about that for a season finale, huh? "What Was Meant To Be" brought an epic, triumphant end to a season that did not shy away from darkness or danger. Thankfully, the Hollywood writers' strike ended just in time for EW to catch up with showrunner Rafe Judkins and pick his brain about his "holistic" approach to the adaptation of Robert Jordan's long-running fantasy series.

 

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: In addition to being the showrunner, you're also the co-writer on the season 2 finale. What's the difference for you between leading the room throughout the season and actually being in the writer's seat for such a big episode? 

 

RAFE JUDKINS: Yeah, I mean, I love writing. That's why I got into this gig and I love all the pieces that I get to do as a showrunner, but I love to write scenes. I love to just be alone with a computer working on a script. And so it was great to get to do that with this finale and make sure that I could tie together all of the pieces that we've been trying to build toward all season. We have a complicated job in terms of adapting two books into one season and pulling in certain things from later in the books, but also holding other things for later in the show. We've got a complicated juggling act going on right now. Our job by the end of season 2 was making sure that when you see those five characters up on the tower at the end, you understand who each of them are and what the core crux of their character is. You may have favorites and lesser favorites amongst those five, but you know who they are and you know what they stand for.
 

Totally. And not only are you combining books two and three, but you're also bringing stuff in from the first book since we didn't really touch on Perrin's wolf stuff in the first season and that had to come in here too — and obviously that plays a big role in the finale.
 

Yeah, I'm always viewing my job as adapting the entire series of Wheel of Time, not just each book individually. Because the series is so massive — it fills my whole wall behind me — we have to think of it holistically. Especially in these early stages, we really have to set up correctly what people need to understand because the books start to go into storylines that more cleanly adapt to television the later we go on as well. 

 

When we talked about season 1, you mentioned that the first book, The Eye of the World, is very different from the rest of the series. It starts out by seeming like a standard fantasy quest, but then at the end of that story it becomes clear that The Wheel of Time has only just begun. What was fun about diving deeper into Robert Jordan's world in season 2? 
 

I think that's one of the best things about The Wheel of Time is the deeper you get into it, the more interesting things happen, the more unique cultures you meet, the more unusual characters and conflicts that still feel so fresh even decades later. I think the books really do that. When you read them, you feel like you grow up with them, you feel like they become more sophisticated and deep. I hope the show does the same, so that by the time you get to season 3, you're just rattling off things about the One Power and the Black Ajah. You just become fluent in the world of Wheel of Time the deeper you get into it. 

 

Speaking of the unique cultures of Wheel of Time, the Seanchan are such a big element of season 2. What was fun about bringing them to the screen, and also making them feel so dangerous? One of the reasons this finale feels so triumphant is that there were several episodes this season where it felt like the Seanchan were just steamrolling everything. In season 1 it's like, "There are troll soldiers, there's a Dark Lord and his minions, I know how this goes." But with the Seanchan you just feel like, "Wait, I don't know what's going on. I haven't seen anything like this before." 
 

One of the things that really excited me about taking on this adaptation was that memory of getting to the second book and meeting the Seanchan. I remember getting there when I was younger and feeling like, "I don't know where this story is going, and that makes me excited!" That makes you lean in, and I feel like we had to achieve that in the show too. Everyone worked so hard across every department, from the writers to the costumes to the dialect team to the production design to make sure that the Seanchan really come in and just absolutely sideswipe you and drive every story in a direction that you never saw coming. I think for the show to really work, we needed the Seanchan to work because it could give that audience the feeling of, "I don't know what's going to happen next in this show and I need to watch to find out." 
 

In particular, their threat feels so real because they really beat down Egwene (Madeleine Madden). So her breaking free and working together with everyone to defeat the Seanchan in this finale feels so exciting and triumphant because it really did seem like they were walking away with it for a little bit there.
 

We really wanted her personal journey this season to feel impossible to get out of. As a logical person, you're putting yourself in her mind and you're like, "There is no way out. We cannot escape from this." She feels like our sort of representation for the Seanchan writ large: How do our leads get out of this? And I feel like the best finales that any movie or TV show have are something where you as the audience feel like your lead is up against impossible odds and you don't know how they can overcome them. And then when they do, it's surprising and amazing. The Seanchan really give us that story, where it's really satisfying for the audience to follow Egwene on that journey and then see all of our characters overcoming the Seanchan in a similar way.

 

I wanted to ask you about that climactic scene with the five Two Rivers characters on the tower and the fiery dragon in the sky behind them. We spent season 1 wondering which of them was the Dragon Reborn, and we eventually learned that Rand (Josha Stradowski) was the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon. Throughout season 2, Moiraine (Rosamund Pike) has been reciting this prophecy of how the Dragon Reborn will declare himself to the world on that tower. But I just couldn't help but notice that if Rand had been on his own up there, it would not have gone down like that. He would've been gentled by the Seanchan and killed by Ishamael (Fares Fares). Their triumph was only possible because they were all there together. Doesn't it feel like "The Dragon," this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about, is really all of them? 
 

Yeah, one of the most famous quotes of the final book is it wasn't a story about him, it was about all of them. That's what we're trying to represent in that scene on top of the tower: This is not a Chosen One story just about him, it's a Chosen One story that's about all of them, and they each fit into it in their own different way. That makes it a much more interesting story. You don't know where it's going to go. Also it makes you think, was it about all of them last time? Were Lanfear and Ishamael similar or dissimilar to Mat and Egwene? That cyclical nature of time and how it repeats itself opens up really interesting ideas.

It's a little strange to me. It really is not all about Rand. He very much needed help from others and his character arc concludes with that realization. That does not mean he suddenly isn't the Dragon Reborn, the most powerful channeler of all time, the prophesized saviour and destroyer of the world, in both the show and the books.

The first book literally starts with this depiction before the first chapter even starts:

 

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

 

I am totally cool with a more ensemble focused storytelling, but Rand still has to be the most powerful and impactful figure within the context of that ensemble. His character development depends on that on top of his his unwillingness and fear with regards to dealing with that power while needing to use it in order to do the right thing. 

 

In the books Elayne and post-damane Egwene tries to "teach" Rand how to use the Power, only to realise that they're completely bodied by Rand randomly channeling by feel. 

In the show thus far, none of his "feats" could not have been recreated by a novice like Elayne or a rando Aes Sedai like Liandrin. We are two seasons in and he knows neither how to use the sword nor channel, and it's a weird writing choice to say the least.
 

Edited October 10, 2023 by ilovezam

[Elder_Haman]

38 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't see how his answer is any different the three ta'veren in the books being necessary, and Moiraine, Egwene, Min, Aviendha, Elayne, Birgitte, Lan, Nynaeve, Tam... The Dragon was the one facing the Dark One, but he could not do it alone. He did not say they were all the Dragon, but they were all the world-saving force. 

Yeah. This is the pull quote:

 

Quote

This is not a Chosen One story just about [Rand], it's a Chosen One story that's about all of them, and they each fit into it in their own different way.

Tells me Rafe understands the source material. 

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yeah. This is the pull quote:

 

Tells me Rafe understands the source material. 

Saying that the Gospels is about Jesus does not make you a theologian.

 

Recognizing that the main characters of a 14-book behemoth all have their roll to play proves nothing either.

 

For a bunch of people who scream from that rafters that things like the Steppin arc are so important to “show, not tell,” there seems to be a whole lot of reliance on Rafe’s nebulous statements outside of the show to prove that when the show demonstrates a tenuous grasp at best of the source material, they are actually playing 4D chess…

Edited October 10, 2023 by Mirefox

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

For a bunch of people who scream from that rafters that things like the Steppin arc are so important to “show, not tell,” there seems to be a whole lot of reliance on Rafe’s nebulous statements outside of the show to prove that when the show demonstrates a tenuous grasp at best of the source material, they are actually playing 4D chess…

Hmmm. Who is “screaming from the rafters”? Seems like a more apt characterization of those who feel the need to bash the show at every opportunity.  

 

Rafe is making a show that is focused on the characters. The characters (all of them, not just Rand) are what make Wheel of Time special. 

[ilovezam]

35 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Rafe is making a show that is focused on the characters.

 

Focused on the characters minus Rand. Which is the problem most people have. You don't have to agree, but it's a huge strawman to pretend that people want the show to be all about Rand. 

 

Rand should not be one of the most minor characters in this ensemble.

If you agree that "it's not about Rand" is what the books were already going for, why is there a need to take away all the big Dragon Reborn moments that these same books had away from him. Would having Rand fight Ishy instead of Egwene be problematic for you somehow?

Edited October 10, 2023 by ilovezam

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Focused on the characters minus Rand. Which is the problem most people have. You don't have to agree, but it's a huge strawman to pretend that people want the show to be all about Rand. 

 

Rand should not be one of the most minor characters in this ensemble.

If you agree that "it's not about Rand" is what the books were going for, why is there a need to take away all the big Dragon Reborn moments that these books had away from him?

I think they are going for a slow build with Rand for a few reasons:

 

(1) you have to give screen time to the other actors. A series focused primarily on Rand would suffer from weaker characterization of the remaining players. A good example is The Last Kingdom (one of my favorite shows). They are able to develop Uhtred, Brida, and Alfred quite well. Other characters are relegated to the side which works for TLK but would not for WoT

 

(2) avoiding the power problem. Rand has god-tier abilities. It is very difficult to craft situations where it feels as if he is in real jeopardy, especially when you can’t be in his head. RJ was able to really drill down on Rand’s internal conflicts, his fear of the OP, his madness-tinged rationalizations, and his personal code. Those things are harder to do in the show. Going slower will allow for his big moments to be earned and avoid the “Mary Sue” problem. 
 

(3) avoiding repetition. Rand has basically the same arc in each of the first three books. 
 

I certainly agree that Rand has been sidelined for much of the series so far. But I am confident that his time is coming. Remember, some of the same people who are complaining the loudest actually thought that Nyn was going to be the Dragon. That didn’t happen, nor is Rand going to be a bit player for much longer. He is ascendant as demonstrated by the visuals of the final scene atop the tower in Falme. 

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, ilovezam said:

Not sure if this is been posted around here yet, but Rafe seems to have semi-confirmed the Power Rangers theory in this new interview here with the last question, that the Dragon was "all of them". This also explains how ineffectual Rand has been across both seasons.

 

https://ew.com/tv/the-wheel-of-time-season-2-finale-showrunner-interview/

Rand hasn't been ineffectual, but the books where always about the 5, I never saw Rand as the sole main character. Rand is one part of the last battle, but, if there is no Egwene, Nynaeve, Matt and Perrin then the last battle is lost regardless of Rand and the DO wins. Rand is the tip of the sword but the others are equally as important. 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

I mean he... answered "Yeah" to the question "Doesn't it feel like "The Dragon," this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about, is really all of them?"

Where "this world-saving force for good we've heard so much about" is the appositive beside the noun "The Dragon".

He then asks if Matt and Egwene are ishy and Lanfer in this turning, which discredits the point you are trying to make 

[Scarloc99]

43 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

 

Focused on the characters minus Rand. Which is the problem most people have. You don't have to agree, but it's a huge strawman to pretend that people want the show to be all about Rand. 

 

Rand should not be one of the most minor characters in this ensemble.

If you agree that "it's not about Rand" is what the books were already going for, why is there a need to take away all the big Dragon Reborn moments that these same books had away from him. Would having Rand fight Ishy instead of Egwene be problematic for you somehow?

Egwene didn't "fight" ishy, a fight indicates she had a chance of winning, she put up a desperate last ditch defence that was crumbling as Ishy played and toyed with her. He wanted Rand to feel helpless, to experience real loss, to punish him for locking him away 3000 years ago instead of killing him. This is going to be a fantastic cal back to when Egwene takes on Taim in the last season and absolutely owns him in a reversal. 

And I asked the many people around me who have never read the books and they absolutley get that Rand is a key character to this story, he is the one Lanfer tried to seduce, he is the one Ishy is trying to corrupt, he is the focus of everything. Yes in the first 2 books RJ made him a point of focus, but that quickly changed so that in book 3 he is barely in it. 

Rafe has simply balanced out the story time of each character, because that is how you make a TV show. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Scarloc99

[ilovezam]

24 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think they are going for a slow build with Rand for a few reasons:

 

(1) you have to give screen time to the other actors. A series focused primarily on Rand would suffer from weaker characterization of the remaining players. A good example is The Last Kingdom (one of my favorite shows). They are able to develop Uhtred, Brida, and Alfred quite well. Other characters are relegated to the side which works for TLK but would not for WoT

 

(2) avoiding the power problem. Rand has god-tier abilities. It is very difficult to craft situations where it feels as if he is in real jeopardy, especially when you can’t be in his head. RJ was able to really drill down on Rand’s internal conflicts, his fear of the OP, his madness-tinged rationalizations, and his personal code. Those things are harder to do in the show. Going slower will allow for his big moments to be earned and avoid the “Mary Sue” problem. 
 

(3) avoiding repetition. Rand has basically the same arc in each of the first three books. 
 

I certainly agree that Rand has been sidelined for much of the series so far. But I am confident that his time is coming. Remember, some of the same people who are complaining the loudest actually thought that Nyn was going to be the Dragon. That didn’t happen, nor is Rand going to be a bit player for much longer. He is ascendant as demonstrated by the visuals of the final scene atop the tower in Falme. 

I would much rather Rand have much more participation in the events thus far, but that's reasonable enough, cheers.

I'm just quite bummed out that "yeah he was sidelined, but watch him kick ass in Season 2!" was a very commonly seen response after Season 1, and then we got another 8 episodes (some of which were otherwise excellent) that treated Rand the same way.

 

[EmreY]

I both fully agree with Elder_Haman (apart from his comment about Alfred (and even more so Edward)), and am also not entirely sure that the Rand we're seeing is depowered in the slightest (the reverse in the fact).

 

Rand should, by rights, become even more enigmatic as time goes on.  Nearly a sort of Sauron-in-inverse, he does actually occasionally turn up, pull something out of his hat that no-one expects or blast everything into smithereens - and then disappear.  And people talk about him, right or wrong or pick up the pieces*. Until almost the very end of the books.

 

*Eg: The Cleansing.  Yes, there is some Rand there, but then everyone is off doing something too.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by EmreY

[Scarloc99]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

I would much rather Rand have much more participation in the events thus far, but that's reasonable enough, cheers.

I'm just quite bummed out that "yeah he was sidelined, but watch him kick ass in Season 2!" was a very commonly seen response after Season 1, and then we got another 8 episodes (some of which were otherwise excellent) that treated Rand the same way.

 

I will add that in a big piece like this it is usual for main characters who are only around a short while to be given more screen time then other characters whos actors get a far longer time to develop and expose them to audiences. Ishy was dying the end of the season, I don't expect that actor to be returning, so he was given some great scenes to chew through because that is how it is worth his while as an artist, Rand had some key moments in season 2, he destroyed a Fade, took out the guy stopping him from seeing Logain, he showed himself as caring and compassionate, which is really important given how dark we know he will get, he risked everything to try and save Egwene, and her not needing rescuing is a theme that will follow her throughout the story (how many people think she needs saving when she doesn't in the books). 

If you think about book 3 Rand hardly appears in it, you see glimpses of him but it isn't until Tear that he joins up with the reat of the group that you catch up with him. Season 1 was about introducing everyone, season 2 was about moving moiraine to the side and making the EF5 the key main characters, it was about developing each of them. I will just add that in the books RJ brought Rand on so quickly because he thought he was writing a trilogy, once he realised it would be much bigger he did sideline Rand and brought on the other characters to get them aligned. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

(apart from his comment about Alfred (and even more so Edward)),

Wait. You didn’t think they did a good job with Alfred?! Edward was mid, but David Dawson’s Alfred is one of my favorite performances ever. 

[EmreY]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Wait. You didn’t think they did a good job with Alfred?! Edward was mid, but David Dawson’s Alfred is one of my favorite performances ever. 

 

Oh, no, I didn't want to imply that.  I should have been clearer.  The characterisation is substantial; only IMO Alfred is seriously "depowered", to borrow a phrase from WOT reactions, and Edward even more so. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by EmreY

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Oh, no, I didn't want to imply that.  I should have been clearer.  The characterisation is substantial; only IMO Alfred is seriously "depowered", to borrow a phrase from WOT reactions, and Edward even more so. 

*Lowers veil. Returns spear to harness.*

[ilovezam]

18 minutes ago, EmreY said:

I both fully agree with Elder_Haman (apart from his comment about Alfred (and even more so Edward)), and am also not entirely sure that the Rand we're seeing is depowered in the slightest (the reverse in the fact).

It's not so much that he's become weaker, but rather he hasn't done anything with the Power that a bottom-tier Aes Sedai couldn't have. 

 

We know his potential is still there with that scene he seized the Source at Logain's, but in the context of the universe and the entertainment value of the shows they've absolutely taken away all the moments from Rand where he learned or demonstrated either his sai'din and swordfighting skills. He's literally got less swordfighting time than Nynaeve(??) and Perrin(???) at this point.

Edited October 10, 2023 by ilovezam

[Ralph]

45 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

It's not so much that he's become weaker, but rather he hasn't done anything with the Power that a bottom-tier Aes Sedai couldn't have. 

 

We know his potential is still there with that scene he seized the Source at Logain's, but in the context of the universe and the entertainment value of the shows they've absolutely taken away all the moments from Rand where he learned or demonstrated either his sai'din and swordfighting skills. He's literally got less swordfighting time than Nynaeve(??) and Perrin(???) at this point.

 

killing turak and his soldiers

 

perrin has not shown skill with the sword, which we have already been told is coming for Rand in S3.

 

Rand has not been involved in any of the fights with multiple fighters, whereas Perrin has. and that is not unlike the books at this stage tbh