Mat's Transformation

[nsmallw]

I'm re-reading The Dragon Reborn and reading Mat's first chapters after his healing from the dagger. 

 

I was taken by how different his character seemed to me. 

How his luck seemed to burst into being that one night he began exploring Tar Valon.

It seemed out of the blue and I wondered if it was an just an aspect of his Ta'veren nature coming to fore

 

Does anyone else have thoughts on this ? 

 

[Scarloc99]

So from a story perspective mats powers did just seem to appear, I feel it’s more than Ta’veren because it is so focused on him. I always wondered if the dagger somehow had something to do with it. 
 

From an author standpoint I really wonder if Robert Jordan had any idea what he was doing with Matt before he started Dragon Reborn. It feels like he starts the character in one direction, picking up the dagger and getting infected. Then it always felt in healing him RJ went “what now” in trying to figure out his role moving forward. I wonder if in these early days he really thought about the mechanics of the ability. 

[Dedicated]

Yea, Mat's character really did a 180 from that point on and personally I loved it. Mat's character just kept getting better and better until he was finally my favorite character by the end. 

 

On 8/22/2023 at 1:02 AM, Scarloc99 said:

So from a story perspective mats powers did just seem to appear, I feel it’s more than Ta’veren because it is so focused on him. I always wondered if the dagger somehow had something to do with it. 

 

I feel like much of Mat's character could be explained by the dagger's influence up to that point. The entire time Mat had the dagger he was more of a source of conflict. Also I feel like the entire idea of Ta'veren kind of meta or 4th wall breaking. It's almost like the characters' word for "plot armor". 

 

 

On 8/22/2023 at 1:02 AM, Scarloc99 said:

...

From an author standpoint I really wonder if Robert Jordan had any idea what he was doing with Matt before he started Dragon Reborn. It feels like he starts the character in one direction, picking up the dagger and getting infected. Then it always felt in healing him RJ went “what now” in trying to figure out his role moving forward. I wonder if in these early days he really thought about the mechanics of the ability. 

 

I think a read somewhere that RJ wrote Eye of the World as a fun project to reexplore the ideas of LOTR. That he didn't think it would be as big of a series as it wound up being. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I love the development of mat’s character throughout the series. We have 3 taveren and they all come with their own unique abilities. I never really knew what explained the luck factor….Perrin has this ancient wolf thing and Rand is the dragon effing reborn, and those two are so serious and intense. Then mat has some deeply rooted skills and what not but the luck thing just is what it is and can’t be traced to anything else in the universe. Plus he’s not as brooding or serious as the other two and it was refreshing for me as the reader. Not that he doesn’t have his own internal conflict about his role, but I enjoyed the less defined and explainable aspects of his “superpowers”

[Elendir]

Ta'veren working is about probability. That it bend outcome in favor of ta'veren.

Mat several time say, that his luck work best, when outcome is random.

 

Rand and Perrin try to keep some level of control over situation and they cannot have so much random luck therefore.

Mat is a gamer who goes against chance and can have more random luck that way.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Elendir

[Scarloc99]

Re reading TGH mats luck kicks in even as he slips into darkness as they chase the horn. Hurin remembers later on in MOL that he wouldn’t play dice against him. So it is not post healing but pre. 

[Samt]

On 8/23/2023 at 5:00 PM, Dedicated said:

Also I feel like the entire idea of Ta'veren kind of meta or 4th wall breaking. It's almost like the characters' word for "plot armor". 

Absolutely.  RJ literally wrote plot bandaids into his story.  The whole idea of the pattern is this to a lesser extent, but Ta'veren especially. 

[Dedicated]

On 8/27/2023 at 6:49 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Re reading TGH mats luck kicks in even as he slips into darkness as they chase the horn. Hurin remembers later on in MOL that he wouldn’t play dice against him. So it is not post healing but pre. 

 

Good point, but I've always felt his previous gambling was just in his nature. He was a skilled gambler, knew how to play the odds and just loved games. He naturally would develop a good intuition for when he has a streak going. Then he notices post healing that his luck is abnormally in his favor.

 

 

On 8/25/2023 at 6:55 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I love the development of mat’s character throughout the series. We have 3 taveren and they all come with their own unique abilities. I never really knew what explained the luck factor….Perrin has this ancient wolf thing and Rand is the dragon effing reborn, and those two are so serious and intense. Then mat has some deeply rooted skills and what not but the luck thing just is what it is and can’t be traced to anything else in the universe. Plus he’s not as brooding or serious as the other two and it was refreshing for me as the reader. Not that he doesn’t have his own internal conflict about his role, but I enjoyed the less defined and explainable aspects of his “superpowers”

 

Right, of the 3 Ta'veren both were dutiful, but Perrin got into puzzles and hanging with wolves while Rand's shtick as a doomed doom-bringer, doomed to doom for the sake of postponing more doom wasn't really carved out and shaped until his world got flipped turned upside and had to move in with his Auntie (Moraine) and Uncle (Lan) in Fal Moran. So Mat definitely served some much needed comic relief and offered some interesting juxtaposition as a Ta'varen who refuses to accept his role and keeps trying to run from it.

 

I think Mat's memories of his past lives play a role here. In almost all of those lives Mat remembers enjoying gambling and fighting. Maybe Mat's intuition and character are products of his current life through the lens of his subconscious access to memories of past lives. Maybe all of our intuitions and personalities are shaped by memories of past lives we're consciously unaware of. Whatever it is for Mat it gets taken a few levelers higher by the snake/fox peoples. 

 

And as for the origins of the "luck" factor, I think a sense of luck is just a common thing for people have. I personally I think I have above average luck. I also have frequent "gut feeling's" about stuff that I feel confident about (though if there were some rigorously arrived at measurements I wouldn't be surprised if I was just right 50/50). Of all the inherent character qualities to have of the 3 Ta'veren I feel like this is one many would realistically identify with. 

 

And read the spoiler for one of my favorite Mat moments. 

Spoiler

One of my favorite scenes is when Rand kneels to Tuon and starts humming the song those Traveling people had been searching for under his breath. Everyone is stunned by all the greenery growing around them and freaking out because they know it's not channeling. Then Mat is sitting there tapping his foot, nodding his head and is like, "I know that song... what is it that? 3 Barmaids in [something something I can't remember exactly] ..."

 

 

[JyP]

I think we can go earlier as a source for Mat's luck.

 

Whenever Rand and Mat are traveling together after Shadar Logoth, being hunted by Darkfriends : remember the time lightning crashed and they were able to flee ? We expect that it is Rand unknown powers at the time, but it could be Mat's insane luck ?

 

Note that we have 3/5 taveren's in Emond's Field, with Rand being the biggest one by far. What if Rand subconsciously granted taveren powers to his friends over time, with the lightning scene being whenever he triggered Mat's insane luck ?

 

 

[Dedicated]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:57 AM, JyP said:

I think we can go earlier as a source for Mat's luck.

 

Whenever Rand and Mat are traveling together after Shadar Logoth, being hunted by Darkfriends : remember the time lightning crashed and they were able to flee ? We expect that it is Rand unknown powers at the time, but it could be Mat's insane luck ?

 

...

 

 

Possibly, but then Rand got super sick afterwards which is indicative of first time channeling. 

 

On 9/4/2023 at 11:57 AM, JyP said:

...

 

Note that we have 3/5 taveren's in Emond's Field, with Rand being the biggest one by far. What if Rand subconsciously granted taveren powers to his friends over time, with the lightning scene being whenever he triggered Mat's insane luck ?

 

I've actually brushed this idea once of twice before. Right now it's only a vague snippet of one or two ideas tied to a bigger point/understand, but I can't remember enough of it right now to succinctly describe it. 

[Scarloc99]

I mean you could argue Matts luck came to play in Shadar Logath, it lead him to finding the dagger, which then ultimately led to Rand curing the taint. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

With the lightening thing, does not Ba'alzamon say "one minute you hide, the next minute you light a bonfire that can be seen for miles"? I paraphrase, and perhaps I am misremembering but I am pretty sure this was referring to Four Kings, and with his illness following it, I think it is quite certain it was not natural lightening.

 

On a side note, I love Mat's character, but I hate the trope of the gambler that always wins. If you always win, or even only win 51% of the time, it is not a gamble; it is an investment. It is cheating. For someone who loves to gamble, it would be horrible. If you win more than you lose, it is not reckless to gamble, it is common sense. You are not a gambler if you always win more than you lose. It is such a contradiction that becomes a plot mainstay that is really frustrating. It is like being a great drinker, but you cannot get drunk, and it has no effect on your health...

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Following along the topic of Mat’s supernatural luck ability…I always felt there were moments where he had extraordinary lucky breaks that he was clearly certain had nothing to do with his “luck” but just happened to go his way. The main example I can remember is when he bets a significant amount of his money on the horse race with olver, but beyond this there are numerous times where he manages to come out of encounters where the odds were stacked against him and the circumstances should have not worked in his favor. The overall point or observation I’m attempting to convey is that Mat seems to attribute his luck as only activated in certain ways, but in my opinion it seems to permeate his life and outcomes much more than he realizes. On the other hand, maybe those other things are due to his being teveren and not intrinsically connected to the luck gift?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yes, in the story he simply can tell Wind is the best horse. And of course he is one the main characters in a story, how can you tell when he is being lucky and when just wearing plot armour? I mean, he is never going to fall down some stairs and break his neck. 

 

But I would certainly say it does seem like his luck is activated. Like in the Tower of Ghenji, he has to randomly choose directions. Why not just go any which way and that will be the right one? Or when he sees where Nynaeve and co are in Tear in the lightening strike (lucky!) but does not go there even though Thom has a cold (unlucky!). If you were always lucky, you would not have that kind of terrible bad luck, it nearly got them all killed! But of course, that did not happen because plot armour.  

 

I'd say when you think about, it becomes clear you just cannot look too deep into it as "luck" is not rational or objective, so you cannot have it perform in a rational way. You just have to accept it. 

[Finnssss22]

It wasn't random imo.

First off, let me premise this with my belief that Mat is Aemon reborn.

That said, I believe the Taint from SL opened Mat up to memories, personality traits and even fighting reflexes from a past life. In this case Aemon.

During the healing he was spouting off in the Old Tongue and the first thing that happens when he wakes is his reliving the last battle of the fall of Manetheren through the eyes of who can only be Aemon.

He is now 100% fluent in the Old Tongue as evidenced by his trip through the Doorway in Tear.

His luck to me was simply just him being free of the SL taint and the first of the 3 to actually accept and actively try to benefit from being Ta'veren.

Rand and Perrin by contrast fight against being Ta'veren most of the time until later on where both of them at different times eventually use it to actively direct events around them just like Mat.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Was doing a bit of research on folklore around hangings and found this:

 

‘Even the rope made its way into the hands of souvenir hunters. Tied around the head, the hangman's
rope could cure headaches. It also acted as a good luck charm, particularly for those who played
cards.’

 

Robert Jordan really knew his folklore and created and a densely layered world. 

[Finnssss22]

17 hours ago, Owayn The Traveller said:

Was doing a bit of research on folklore around hangings and found this:

 

‘Even the rope made its way into the hands of souvenir hunters. Tied around the head, the hangman's
rope could cure headaches. It also acted as a good luck charm, particularly for those who played
cards.’

 

Robert Jordan really knew his folklore and created and a densely layered world. 

 

Good quote lol but like how Rand's mythos is clearly King Arthur, Mat's mythos is clearly Odin, RJ didn't even try and disguise it.

Spear, losing an eye, being hung, right down to Odin's Ravens Munin and Hugin (translated to english, Memory and Thought).

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Good quote lol but like how Rand's mythos is clearly King Arthur, Mat's mythos is clearly Odin, RJ didn't even try and disguise it.

Spear, losing an eye, being hung, right down to Odin's Ravens Munin and Hugin (translated to english, Memory and Thought).

Yep, I just hope that when he and Tuon have a child he gets Perrin to make him a hammer 🙂