A thread on the tv show forum inspired this question regarding the taint of saidin

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Is there any explanation for why saidin was corrupted and not saidar? I just realized that I must have assumed that the DO was defined by a gender construct, namely male in general. Now I’m feeling naive and embarrassed to admit that I assumed the DO was inherently “male ish” and therefore the taint had to be tied to saidin. So moving past my blunder and acknowledging that forces of nature/creation on the level of the DO itself are not constrained by gender constructs, what caused specifically the male half of the power to be vulnerable to the DO corruption? Is it because the men were the ones actively channeling at the time so the DO had easier access to saidin? 

[VooDooNut]

4 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Is there any explanation for why saidin was corrupted and not saidar? I just realized that I must have assumed that the DO was defined by a gender construct, namely male in general. Now I’m feeling naive and embarrassed to admit that I assumed the DO was inherently “male ish” and therefore the taint had to be tied to saidin. So moving past my blunder and acknowledging that forces of nature/creation on the level of the DO itself are not constrained by gender constructs, what caused specifically the male half of the power to be vulnerable to the DO corruption? Is it because the men were the ones actively channeling at the time so the DO had easier access to saidin? 

Yep, that's how I understand it. The "counter-stroke" was the DO's last, desperate act to lash out, and Saidin  was the only nearby source. If women had been involved, and in a circle with the 100 companions, Saidar would probably be tainted too.

[Scarloc99]

Yes Rand identifies (post his merging with Lewis Therin) the mistake that Lewis made, while Min identifies the role that Callandor needs to play in using the true power as a buffer to protect saidin and saidar. Had Rand not done that at the last battle then the darklord would have corrupted both halves of the power sending men and women mad. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Wow, thanks for your clarification and fascinating and significant realization it then presents. While at first glance the lack of participation by women clearly created an inherent diminishing of the potential strength that may have been utilized in the effort to defeat or at least definitively imprison the DO, leading to an understandable assumption that this was the obvious weakness or explanation for the failure to achieve the intended mission. The awareness that had the women actually participated and aligned with the men may very well have been more catastrophic is very enlightening and fundamentally important or at least thought provoking information. I’m way behind in general when it comes to having an understanding of the situations that more experienced fans know inside and out. 

[VooDooNut]

I believe RJ has contradicted this theory at some point, but I like to think it’s possible Lews Therin would have succeeded if the women Aes Sedai had joined the 100 companions. Most likely it would have meant the tainting of both halves of the power, but perhaps in another turning of the wheel the taint was avoided entirely.

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

I believe RJ has contradicted this theory at some point, but I like to think it’s possible Lews Therin would have succeeded if the women Aes Sedai had joined the 100 companions. Most likely it would have meant the tainting of both halves of the power, but perhaps in another turning of the wheel the taint was avoided entirely.

Yes, if women had joined, it would have meant both haves would have been corrupted. They would have required the True Power + the One Power to seal the DO.

[VooDooNut]

Another framing I like to keep in mind, as inaccurate as it might be: 
In the show, more-so than the books, Moraine’s opening dialogue comes across as judgmental of Lews Therin and the 100 companions, as if the women Aes Sedai had any other option at the time. But the reality of the situation was that everyone was mostly clueless about how to seal the DO’s prison (no one intended to use the True Power) and they were running out of time. So Lews Therin acted, and the consequences of that action were immense, but it was done in a state of emergency. If anything, I think Lews Therin is judged more on the outcome of his actions than for the actions themselves, in both book and tv show. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:41 AM, VooDooNut said:

Another framing I like to keep in mind, as inaccurate as it might be: 
In the show, more-so than the books, Moraine’s opening dialogue comes across as judgmental of Lews Therin and the 100 companions, as if the women Aes Sedai had any other option at the time. But the reality of the situation was that everyone was mostly clueless about how to seal the DO’s prison (no one intended to use the True Power) and they were running out of time. So Lews Therin acted, and the consequences of that action were immense, but it was done in a state of emergency. If anything, I think Lews Therin is judged more on the outcome of his actions than for the actions themselves, in both book and tv show. 

I like your train of thought here. I don’t know if this is relevant to your point or not but I don’t quite know how to reconcile the viewpoint declaring the “arrogance” of men was a flawed motive and fundamentally caused the audacity to attempt to contain the dark one in the first place….but what was the preferred alternative? Submit and resolve to be forever oppressed by the DO in order to not appear or act arrogant? I tend to view it more as an act of courage born out of desperation and desire to benefit humanity as a whole than an ego fueled display of arrogance. It may have been doomed to fail but I find it more appalling to think that no one would have resisted or attempted to fight for freedom at all. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Is it certain that if the female half of the power had participated in the event then both aspects of the OP would have been tainted? Or could it be possible that both forces working together may have been strong enough to successfully overpower the DO? No way to know for sure, for many reasons (for example the story would never have happened) but it seems like it is accepted as fact by readers that this was the only outcome possible. 

[Scarloc99]

40 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Is it certain that if the female half of the power had participated in the event then both aspects of the OP would have been tainted? Or could it be possible that both forces working together may have been strong enough to successfully overpower the DO? No way to know for sure, for many reasons (for example the story would never have happened) but it seems like it is accepted as fact by readers that this was the only outcome possible. 

Don’t have the book to hand but it specifically states at the last battle as Rand forges the new seals that the DO tries to taint both halves of the power but is unable to as they are protected by the true power being drawn from Moridin. So yes, he would have made all channelers mad, and who is to say in the next turning that isn’t what happens. 

[Elendir]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:42 PM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Is it certain that if the female half of the power had participated in the event then both aspects of the OP would have been tainted? Or could it be possible that both forces working together may have been strong enough to successfully overpower the DO? No way to know for sure, for many reasons (for example the story would never have happened) but it seems like it is accepted as fact by readers that this was the only outcome possible. 

 

No, it wasn't confirmed. This theory is based on extrapolation of result, LTT get with 100 companions. But without anybody try it with both, males and females.

We know that Rand needed all 3 powers. But it could be necessary for permanent patch of DO prison, not as safety measures.

 

On 8/25/2023 at 12:32 PM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I like your train of thought here. I don’t know if this is relevant to your point or not but I don’t quite know how to reconcile the viewpoint declaring the “arrogance” of men was a flawed motive and fundamentally caused the audacity to attempt to contain the dark one in the first place….but what was the preferred alternative? Submit and resolve to be forever oppressed by the DO in order to not appear or act arrogant? I tend to view it more as an act of courage born out of desperation and desire to benefit humanity as a whole than an ego fueled display of arrogance. It may have been doomed to fail but I find it more appalling to think that no one would have resisted or attempted to fight for freedom at all. 

 

Choedan Kal was female As Sedai plan, two giant sa'angreal.

However LTT as well as forsakens fear of this plan because of risk destroying world.

 

So it looks like they argued between 2 plans. One which partially destroyed world and other which would destroy it entairly.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think the arrogance of men/Lews Therin is that when there was a disagreement, he just threw his toys out of the pram and went off and did what he wanted anyway, rather than reaching any consensus. That was always my reading of it, that he was so confident that his plan was right because it was his plan. As if he was the main character in a book! The arrogance, he's not even a side kick.

 

Rand learned from this and... worked out how to do it himself, and persuaded two friends to come along, which as they were girls counted for more consensus than 100 men. You see, how he managed it better? Then he swans off with a smirk on his face, thinking about all the times that he begged for sympathy because he was the only one guaranteed to die in the last battle, remarkably unconcerned about the heaps of dead of the field of Merrilor. Sorry, I think I am still processing the ending. I'm sure there is light at the end of the tunnel.