Why not follow the books more closely?

[henrywho]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Your point is what? He keeps them moving. He keeps Egwene safe. He knows how his friend thinks and makes sure Egwene goes to the Tower to find Rand. I can’t understand how this is so bothersome. 

She keeps them moving as much as he does. What you said is not bothersome, it's how he goes about it. Book Perrin is fundamentally different and would have approached the situation completely different is what I am saying. It's this simple Book Perrin is a man you can like and could call a mate. TV Perrin is unlikable and hardly worth knowing. I'm talking deep inside, driving force, heart and strength!

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, henrywho said:

he would not be a useless mopy sad sack.

Okay. I get that’s your opinion. I don’t share the opinion that Perrin is a ‘useless mopy sad sack’ in the show. So there’s nothing else to talk about, I guess. 
 

12 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Book Perrin also has no feelings for Egwene except friendship. The TV series wants you to believe he's been in love with her since birth.

He has loved Egwene since birth. Like a sister. He has never been in love with her. 

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, henrywho said:

TV Perrin is unlikable and hardly worth knowing.

Hard disagree. 

[henrywho]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay. I get that’s your opinion. I don’t share the opinion that Perrin is a ‘useless mopy sad sack’ in the show. So there’s nothing else to talk about, I guess. 
 

He has loved Egwene since birth. Like a sister. He has never been in love with her. 

In the Books yes. In the show no. Re watch the Tavern scene from E1 and the following scene at the forge with his non-existent wife, even she can see it.

[Kaleb]

19 hours ago, henrywho said:

A side note influenced by the above:

Rosamund Pike not only plays Moiraine, she is a producer of the show.

A side note to this side note: Casting stars of Pike's caliber, along with non-US star actors like Fares Fares, Alvaro Morte and Priyanka Bose, has expanded the audience for The Wheel Of Time exponentially, and will continue to do so over time. Rosamund Pike is so invested in the books that she's recording new authorized audio books, which I have read great reviews of. Regardless of how a book purist might feel about the show, it's objective fact that the Prime adaptation of the show is introducing huge numbers of people to the beloved story in the books. henrywho, it sounds like you're one of these, and that's great!

 

I'm glad this forum and others allow people to not only have critical discussions and theorizing about the show, but collect the bile and spleen of those who need a place to vent about their shattered expectations. That said, even recognizing that every new book purist is going to go through this phase and it's certainly valid for them to post it, the "they shouldn't even call it Wheel Of Time" gatekeeping take is just so boring at this point.

Edited April 8 by Kaleb

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Kaleb said:

I'm glad this forum and others allow people to not only have critical discussions and theorizing about the show, but collect the bile and spleen of those who need a place to vent about their shattered expectations. That said, even recognizing that every new book purist is going to go through this phase and it's certainly valid for them to post it, the "they shouldn't even call it Wheel Of Time" gatekeeping take is just so boring at this point.

Well said!

[fearbrog]

2 hours ago, Kaleb said:

the "they shouldn't even call it Wheel Of Time" gatekeeping take is just so boring at this point.

Maybe if showrunner made show to be more like books you wouldn't be bored by people acknowledging how show shatters certan aspects of books and completely destroys storylines and good scenes to add unnecessary fanfiction to showrunners and producers favourite characters 

[Kaleb]

31 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

Maybe if showrunner made show to be more like books you wouldn't be bored by people acknowledging how show shatters certan aspects of books and completely destroys storylines and good scenes to add unnecessary fanfiction to showrunners and producers favourite characters 

People have been doing this since prehistory. The entire premise of Robert Jordan's The Wheel Of Time - reiterated at the beginning of Chapter One in every book - is that all stories are confused retellings of misunderstood experiences. The writers and producers of the Prime adaptation do a wonderful job of illustrating that point in their version of the story as well, highlighting that many of these characters have incomplete or just simply incorrect understandings of their world. It's particularly tedious that this specific fandom has so many people who choose to get angry about that basic fact of this imaginary world and Jordan's larger point about the real world we are all trying to make sense of.

 

I understand we're all just people who love a good story and we feel connected to characters and events in ways that are intensely personal. But I also feel that Wheel Of Time fans have an in-the-text-of-the-canon responsibility to absorb adaptational flexibility without being knee-jerk reactionary against it.

[Elder_Haman]

46 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

how show shatters certan aspects of books and completely destroys storylines and good scenes

I'm still trying to understand exactly which aspects of the books were "shattered" or "completely destroyed". I understand that some of the changes to particular backstories change characters in ways people could find unlikable. But I see no changes that "break" or "shatter" or "obliterate" the books. 

 

[henrywho]

4 hours ago, Kaleb said:

Prime adaptation of the show is introducing huge numbers of people to the beloved story in the books.

 

My point is they are not! The two stories only show vague similarities with the books being superior in the extreme. It is an interesting side effect, very probably because of the vehement critical comparisons to the books, that since the show started book sales have increased.

It could go something like this for someone after watching the first season. "I enjoyed that. But I read that the lovers of the books criticise the drastic changes and state the books the be much better etc etc I think I'll read the book."

[Kaleb]

Just now, henrywho said:

My point is they are not! The two stories only show vague similarities with the books being superior in the extreme. It is an interesting side effect, very probably because of the vehement critical comparisons to the books, that since the show started book sales have increased.

It could go something like this for someone after watching the first season. "I enjoyed that. But I read that the lovers of the books criticise the drastic changes and state the books the be much better etc etc I think I'll read the book."

And voila! The Prime adaptation has introduced the books to a new person. 

 

You're trying to parse some kind of significance out of the differences in the narrative details to invalidate any credit for this effect going to the show, but I don't know what satisfaction you hope to gain through that effort.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

It is an interesting side effect, very probably because of the vehement critical comparisons to the books, that since the show started book sales have increased.

It could go something like this for someone after watching the first season. "I enjoyed that. But I read that the lovers of the books criticise the drastic changes and state the books the be much better etc etc I think I'll read the book."

Is that a bad thing? Books are ALWAYS better than their film versions. So what difference does it make what the motivation for picking up the books might be?

 

4 minutes ago, henrywho said:

The two stories only show vague similarities

This is the silliest kind of hyperbole, by the way. There are far more than “vague similarities” between the two. I have a hard time taking anybody seriously when they resort to these types of overwrought dramatics. 

[henrywho]

4 hours ago, Kaleb said:

Rosamund Pike is so invested in the books that she's recording new authorized audio books, which I have read great reviews of.

 

I'm a big fan of Rosamund, Loved her in Radioactive and as a bond girl and most things she's in. I've listened to the first 5 minutes of her narration. I prefer the version I have and cannot recommend it enough. The tag team telling of TWoT by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer. This couple are amazing.

https://www.audible.com.au/pd/The-Eye-of-the-World-Audiobook/B00FMPTVTO?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_series_Th_c4_lProduct_1_2&pf_rd_p=854fefcc-6417-4e97-b97e-4bd809af7581&pf_rd_r=EVWB61EV3X5FFGSH4FQG&pageLoadId=6vwlKXq1VRa07Dzz&creativeId=5f922f04-7f27-45a7-ba24-7bf0c1def1d9

 

Not invested enough or not being listened to, I hope it's the latter.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

I'm a big fan of Rosamund…

 

Not invested enough or not being listened to, I hope it's the latter.

Why would you hope people would not listen to her narration if you’re a “big fan”? 

[Kaleb]

2 minutes ago, henrywho said:

I'm a big fan of Rosamund, Loved her in Radioactive and as a bond girl and most things she's in. I've listened to the first 5 minutes of her narration. I prefer the version I have and cannot recommend it enough. The tag team telling of TWoT by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer. This couple are amazing.

https://www.audible.com.au/pd/The-Eye-of-the-World-Audiobook/B00FMPTVTO?ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&ref=a_series_Th_c4_lProduct_1_2&pf_rd_p=854fefcc-6417-4e97-b97e-4bd809af7581&pf_rd_r=EVWB61EV3X5FFGSH4FQG&pageLoadId=6vwlKXq1VRa07Dzz&creativeId=5f922f04-7f27-45a7-ba24-7bf0c1def1d9

 

Not invested enough or not being listened to, I hope it's the latter.

Audiobooks are for the weak and the blind 😉

(Tongue firmly in cheek, I just hate listening to people talk and avoid audiobooks and podcasts and talk radio/news as a general rule.)

Edited April 8 by Kaleb

[henrywho]

12 minutes ago, Kaleb said:

And voila! The Prime adaptation has introduced the books to a new person. 

 

You're trying to parse some kind of significance out of the differences in the narrative details to invalidate any credit for this effect going to the show, but I don't know what satisfaction you hope to gain through that effort.

No satisfaction at all. Only disappointment. Mostly because I have imagination enough to imagine how much better this show would be if it stuck to the books. Just sit back and imagine that. All that money bringing the books to life on the screen. GoT would be in second place. TWoT series currently doesn't even make it to the top 10. A bigger disappointment is that several of the top 10 have been cancelled. 

[henrywho]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Why would you hope people would not listen to her narration if you’re a “big fan”? 

Sorry you missed my point there, I didn't make it very clear on second reading what I wrote.

What you have quoted was not related to her audio books but her being a producer of the series.

[henrywho]

9 minutes ago, Kaleb said:

Audiobooks are for the weak and the blind 😉

(Tongue firmly in cheek, I just hate listening to people talk and avoid audiobooks and podcasts and talk radio/news as a general rule.)

I don't get time to sit and read much. Good audio books make the hours and hours traveling to and from town or slashing on the tractor or the 6 hours it takes to mow the lawn on the ride-on pass much more pleasantly.

Note: It's a 3 hour drive one way to the nearest major shopping centre. It's a 1 hour drive to the nearest post office.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Mostly because I have imagination enough to imagine how much better this show would be if it stuck to the books.

It would be unfilmable as written. But I would be very interested in seeing someone's "more accurate" treatment. I think it could be made to hew closer to the original, but I don't know that the finished product would be as engaging.

 

I certainly think the series would have been better served if the writers had not tried to play "Who is the Dragon" in S1. I know what they were going for, but it was never going to work. Still, S2 was a huge improvement.

[Kaleb]

13 minutes ago, henrywho said:

No satisfaction at all. Only disappointment. Mostly because I have imagination enough to imagine how much better this show would be if it stuck to the books. Just sit back and imagine that. All that money bringing the books to life on the screen. GoT would be in second place. TWoT series currently doesn't even make it to the top 10. A bigger disappointment is that several of the top 10 have been cancelled. 

I barely watch TV and I don't really care about ranking any kind of media, nor do I concern myself with the machinations of the entertainment industry, at all. I really like The Wheel Of Time specifically and am excited to see an adaptation of it, one which brings the characters and concepts to life in ways that are sometimes spot-on illustrations of the ones in the books and other times present contrasting interpretations that enhance the richness of the world - we're not just theorizing on fan forums, there's now actually an official alternate canon that can be engaged with on its own and in relation to the original!

 

I love seeing off-page scenes presented, like Logain's initial rise to power. I love the alternate realities, like Selene's completely different approach to attempting Rand's seduction. Jordan, much more than most other authors, wrote a world where these differences should be expected, welcomed and engaged with creatively. We can absolutely argue about whether aspects of the Prime version are more worthy of a court bard performing High Chant or a simple country gleeman in the common tongue, but let's not stoop to saying it's not the same story.

[henrywho]

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Is that a bad thing? Books are ALWAYS better than their film versions. So what difference does it make what the motivation for picking up the books might be?

 

This is the silliest kind of hyperbole, by the way. There are far more than “vague similarities” between the two. I have a hard time taking anybody seriously when they resort to these types of overwrought dramatics. 

The very basic major thread of the books is there. Most every thing else has changed except names.

Between the poor casting, scripts and character changes the series is not the books. Also think on this, they will not make 13 or 14 seasons of the series. That means massive condensing and editing. Editing as in cutting out entire character arcs and the like. You can sort of see where they may be heading already. I'm thinking Perrin will suffer the axe more than most but I can see most characters except Rand and Moiraine getting cut down to virtual insignificance compared to what's in the books.

 

The entire Mat and the daughter of the nine moons arc could easily be cut and replaced with a single scene that brings the Saunchen onto the side of Rand.

 

BTW it's not always. Steven Kings "The Mist" is one of the very few examples where the movie (2007) is better than the book, especially the ending.

PS: Wow, there was a TV series made of "The Mist" it was cancelled during the first season. Didn't know that until now.

[Elder_Haman]

17 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Also think on this, they will not make 13 or 14 seasons of the series. That means massive condensing and editing. Editing as in cutting out entire character arcs and the like.

Obviously. If you want the books, you're gonna have to read the books. There's no way any series (even an animated one that some people are clamoring for) can adapt the entire saga without massive condensing and editing.

19 minutes ago, henrywho said:

the poor casting,

Again, I disagree strongly. I think the casting (and by extension, the acting) is the strongest part of the series thus far. The writing has been the weakest.

 

21 minutes ago, henrywho said:

The entire Mat and the daughter of the nine moons arc could easily be cut and replaced with a single scene that brings the Saunchen onto the side of Rand.

Highly doubt this, since they have already mentioned "the Daughter of the Nine Moons" in the show.

[henrywho]

36 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It would be unfilmable as written. But I would be very interested in seeing someone's "more accurate" treatment. I think it could be made to hew closer to the original, but I don't know that the finished product would be as engaging.

 

I certainly think the series would have been better served if the writers had not tried to play "Who is the Dragon" in S1. I know what they were going for, but it was never going to work. Still, S2 was a huge improvement.

Agree totally.

14 books is very hard to put on screen.

Dune Saga is 22 books the 1st 6 by Frank Hurbert. The 1984 movie of book one only covered a fraction of it, which was 896 pages. It was also not the book but was skillfully crafted and makes a very enjoyable watch. I had not listened to the books, (That came decades later), when I watched the movie and I don't make comparisons of it to the book. The movie stands alone as an excellent piece of SciFi.

[henrywho]

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Obviously. If you want the books, you're gonna have to read the books. There's no way any series (even an animated one that some people are clamoring for) can adapt the entire saga without massive condensing and editing.

Again, I disagree strongly. I think the casting (and by extension, the acting) is the strongest part of the series thus far. The writing has been the weakest.

 

Highly doubt this, since they have already mentioned "the Daughter of the Nine Moons" in the show.

Oh yes she has shown up. (Not as expected and what is with the finger nails!!, they are only an inch long in the books.) But will she marry Mat. Or should I say will Mat accidentally marry her. Look what they've done to Perrin! right is the first episode!!!

[Samt]

7 hours ago, Kaleb said:

I barely watch TV and I don't really care about ranking any kind of media, nor do I concern myself with the machinations of the entertainment industry, at all. I really like The Wheel Of Time specifically and am excited to see an adaptation of it, one which brings the characters and concepts to life in ways that are sometimes spot-on illustrations of the ones in the books and other times present contrasting interpretations that enhance the richness of the world - we're not just theorizing on fan forums, there's now actually an official alternate canon that can be engaged with on its own and in relation to the original!

 

I love seeing off-page scenes presented, like Logain's initial rise to power. I love the alternate realities, like Selene's completely different approach to attempting Rand's seduction. Jordan, much more than most other authors, wrote a world where these differences should be expected, welcomed and engaged with creatively. We can absolutely argue about whether aspects of the Prime version are more worthy of a court bard performing High Chant or a simple country gleeman in the common tongue, but let's not stoop to saying it's not the same story.

The WoT is obviously a very complex story and lots of things happen just because and you can change them and still have a good story.  The problem is that it is a very complex story and lots of things happen and changing some of them has consequences for what happens later.  

 

For instance, having Rand go off on his own at the end of season 1 means that you can't have Lan train him in season 2 and that means that you have to re-work the Turak fight and can't have him sheath the sword at Falme.  (I'm using the word "can't" here somewhat lightly since storytelling is flexible, but the point is that choices also have consequences as to what happens next logically).  

 

Imagine something like Dumai's wells.  To set that up, you need the tower schism, the Shaido defeated at Cairhien, Mazrim Taim setting up the black tower, and Perrin back from the Two Rivers with wolves and the Two Rivers men.  Can they do all of that?  Maybe.  But it's a lot.  

 

Now go further.  Consider all of the threads that have to be brought together at the last battle.  That list is long and subjective and certainly some of the things will be cut.  Hinderstap probably doesn't make it in.  Dragons might not be there.  Five great captains is probably out.  At this point, we don't even know how Rand is going to get Callandor.  How many of these little cuts can you make before it's just a different story.  

Edited April 9 by Samt