Moiraine and Siuans relationship

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’m curious to hear thoughts on this. Will the show continue to focus on/elevate the romantic relationship between moiraine and siuan, or do you think eventually we’ll see the two end up with the book version of things, moiraine and Thom/siuan and bryne? On the subject of relationships, do you think the show will portray Rand and his 3 ladies the way it is in the books? Seems like it could be a bit cumbersome to portray on screen but who knows?

[Samt]

Spoiler

I felt that making the M/S relationship sexual in the present was tawdry and frankly gross for the character assassination that it perpetrates.  If you read, New Spring, you understand that Siuan and Moraine have given up several decades of their lives to the quest to find the Dragon and make sure that he is positioned to fulfill his mission.   They have set aside all other personal goals, desires, and passions in order to fulfill this mission.  They realize that this is their calling and that if they don't succeed, no one is coming to help them and nothing else matters.  

 

To have them maintain an illicit sexual relationship undercuts all of that.  One of the interesting themes of the books is how even in times of existential crisis, people can't put aside their personal desires and wellbeing.  The leaders of the world and many of the Ages Sedai can't seem to put aside small things in order to save the world and that almost destroys the world.  In the books, Moraine and Siuan have moved past that and are actually only interested in saving the world, whatever it costs them personally.  The sex scene ruins that.  

 

Of course, if the purpose of the scene was to make Moraine and Siuan seem more selfish and less altruistic, maybe that is an interesting change.  But it doesn't seem that this was at all the point.  There is no judgment for the fact that Siuan and Moraine are literally risking the fate of the world because they can't keep it in their pants.  

In regards to what I think will happen in the show, I suspect that Bryne doesn't exist.  Rafe has also wondered if it would be okay to kill off Thom, which probably means that he isn't planning to ship him with anyone.  Of note, the Moraine/Thom relationship develops during the EoTW timeframe in the books.  We don't get it in that book because the PoV characters in EoTW don't notice it.  But it is revealed in later books.  In the show, Thom and Moraine haven't met.  If Rafe wants them to have a show relationship, he will need to rework more of what happens later.  

Some mild book spoilers.  

[king of nowhere]

thom seem to have been demoted to a more minor role, if he even returns at all. bryne may not even exhist. my money is that siuan/moiraine will stay as they are. unless siuan is killed off during the white tower coup.

All in all, I just don't think the show can afford to divert attention to those minor characters.

[psmith1990]

10 hours ago, Samt said:

  Hide contents

I felt that making the M/S relationship sexual in the present was tawdry and frankly gross for the character assassination that it perpetrates.  If you read, New Spring, you understand that Siuan and Moraine have given up several decades of their lives to the quest to find the Dragon and make sure that he is positioned to fulfill his mission.   They have set aside all other personal goals, desires, and passions in order to fulfill this mission.  They realize that this is their calling and that if they don't succeed, no one is coming to help them and nothing else matters.  

 

To have them maintain an illicit sexual relationship undercuts all of that.  One of the interesting themes of the books is how even in times of existential crisis, people can't put aside their personal desires and wellbeing.  The leaders of the world and many of the Ages Sedai can't seem to put aside small things in order to save the world and that almost destroys the world.  In the books, Moraine and Siuan have moved past that and are actually only interested in saving the world, whatever it costs them personally.  The sex scene ruins that.  

 

Of course, if the purpose of the scene was to make Moraine and Siuan seem more selfish and less altruistic, maybe that is an interesting change.  But it doesn't seem that this was at all the point.  There is no judgment for the fact that Siuan and Moraine are literally risking the fate of the world because they can't keep it in their pants.   

Some mild book spoilers.  

 

Mild NS/TGH, I guess:
 

Spoiler

Can I maybe question the use of the words 'tawdry' and 'gross' there? Because, as someone for whom this relationship (implicit as it was in NS) was a hugely important draw to me as a teenage reader who hadn't figured out their own sexuality, it has me recoiling, to be quite honest. 

 

I've seen this argument a few times about how them stealing this one private moment together for the first time in years somehow negates their self-sacrifice and focus on their mission, but I don't truly understand why this is such a sticking point for people. A large part of their private scene together was them discussing how they've set their personal relationship aside in order to serve their mission, after all. "Nothing but the seat." It's underlined in the later scene with Nynaeve and Egwene, where Siuan reiterates how people - her - might want other things for their lives, but it's not to be. They leave Episode 6 not knowing if, suspecting, they'll never see each other again in this life. They took a risk, a known one, admitting they don't always 'follow the rules', which is true in books as well as TV. 

 

"Can't seem to put aside small things", you say, as though the person they love most in the world, that relationship, is no matter. They have prioritised "the fate of the world" and the risk, the real acknowledged risk, is not that their sexual relationship is found out, but that any relationship between them is found out, because it's that collusion, that keeping of their secret plan regarding the Dragon Reborn, that puts them at risk of stilling. When they meet in the Great Hunt and discuss the dangers in a room together, is it any less risky than meeting up in some assumed dream shard for a few stolen hours together? Moiraine and Siuan in the books have faults (pride amongst them), no matter that they only retained their friendship instead of their sexual relationship, and this - to me - holds more potential for interesting dynamics and stories going forward. Frankly, if it does mean they also completely scrap the romantic relationships with Thom and Gareth (and the accompanying stripping away of much of their mission/power in service to those men), I will be THRILLED. 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by psmith1990

[Samt]

4 minutes ago, psmith1990 said:

 

Mild NS/TGH, I guess:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Can I maybe question the use of the words 'tawdry' and 'gross' there? Because, as someone for whom this relationship (implicit as it was in NS) was a hugely important draw to me as a teenage reader who hadn't figured out their own sexuality, it has me recoiling, to be quite honest. 

 

I've seen this argument a few times about how them stealing this one private moment together for the first time in years somehow negates their self-sacrifice and focus on their mission, but I don't truly understand why this is such a sticking point for people. A large part of their private scene together was them discussing how they've set their personal relationship aside in order to serve their mission, after all. "Nothing but the seat." It's underlined in the later scene with Nynaeve and Egwene, where Siuan reiterates how people - her - might want other things for their lives, but it's not to be. They leave Episode 6 not knowing if, suspecting, they'll never see each other again in this life. They took a risk, a known one, admitting they don't always 'follow the rules', which is true in books as well as TV. 

 

"Can't seem to put aside small things", you say, as though the person they love most in the world, that relationship, is no matter. They have prioritised "the fate of the world" and the risk, the real acknowledged risk, is not that their sexual relationship is found out, but that any relationship between them is found out, because it's that collusion, that keeping of their secret plan regarding the Dragon Reborn, that puts them at risk of stilling. When they meet in the Great Hunt and discuss the dangers in a room together, is it any less risky than meeting up in some assumed dream shard for a few stolen hours together? Moiraine and Siuan in the books have faults (pride amongst them), no matter that they only retained their friendship instead of their sexual relationship, and this - to me - holds more potential for interesting dynamics and stories going forward. Frankly, if it does mean they also completely scrap the romantic relationships with Thom and Gareth (and the accompanying stripping away of much of their mission/power in service to those men), I will be THRILLED. 

 

It’s tawdry and gross because it’s clearly a sex scene for the sake of having a lesbian sex scene. It doesn’t add complexity or interest to the characters or story. In fact, it undermines them.  That feels like shallow pandering. 
 

Yes, in real life it’s valid to make the argument that the sexual nature of their relationship is not really a huge increased risk. But including it in the story undermines the narrative and nature of their characters.  It looks like they took time to add a lesbian sex scene because they thought it would check a box.  

[WhiteVeils]

1) It's not a sex scene. You don't see anything.  I mean, I admit I'm a huge prude overall, but you did not see them having sex at all.  Camera cut away.  
2) You can in no way prove it was done 'for the sake of having a lesbian sex scene'.  If it was done for titillation, you'd see a whole lot more...just like you did in GOT.   

3) It adds to the complexity of the characters.  The relationship is there in the books, but they only think about it.  You can't show thoughts in a show, so if they showed just what was in the books, we would not know there was a close relationship between them anyway.  What they showed is not only them talking about a relationship, but also seeing/empathaizing with the depth of their relationship, so we know not only that they are sacrificing everything for the Dragon, but what that 'everything' truly means tot hem. It scales the sacrifice up incredibly in a way the audience can see and empathize with. Only very hard-hearted people could not feel that sacrifice after what they showed.

4) You are assuming it's to check a box because it didn't 'land' with you. But it landed with many many other people. That means, even if you thought it was useless, it moved and proved the point to others, others likely more numerous than you.

[psmith1990]

59 minutes ago, Samt said:

It’s tawdry and gross because it’s clearly a sex scene for the sake of having a lesbian sex scene. It doesn’t add complexity or interest to the characters or story. In fact, it undermines them.  That feels like shallow pandering. 
 

Yes, in real life it’s valid to make the argument that the sexual nature of their relationship is not really a huge increased risk. But including it in the story undermines the narrative and nature of their characters.  It looks like they took time to add a lesbian sex scene because they thought it would check a box.  

 

Can you elaborate on how it's even a 'sex scene'? Because honestly, it was like one kiss, followed by a fade to black; and a huge percentage of the scene was focused on the reliability of prophecy, the potential of stilling, the consequences of their plans, backgrounding the Eye, etc. And a sex scene, grounded in character work and plot, WHICH IT WAS, isn't inherently tawdry or gross. If you're suggesting it's because it was because it wasn't het, that's another matter altogether and one I won't engage with.

 

For what it's worth, explicitly showing them as having a romantic relationship with each other (complete with physical affection, teasing and so forth) means a lot to me as a fan of these books. I don't feel pandered to; I feel validated and affirmed as someone who didn't understand why younger me was sooooo drawn to New Spring and Siuan and Moiraine's relationship. It ramps UP the nature of their sacrifice, places it in even higher import to me. 

 

I honestly just disagree that it somehow undermines the narrative and their character. The added fact that their relationship remained sexual, not platonic, isn't impactful on the crux of the matter - that if they're caught, if people become aware of their schemes (not that they had sex for the first time in years), they'll be stilled. That was the case in the book series and remains the same for TV.

 

The fact that you're talking about 'box checking' and 'shallow pandering' really does make it clear what the issue is, however, so I might leave it there.

Edited June 19, 2023 by psmith1990

[Samt]

Some people like being pandered to. No shame in that.  It’s fantasy.

[psmith1990]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

Some people like being pandered to. No shame in that.  It’s fantasy.

 

Can we not with the condescending tone? I love WoT and I had zero expectations of Episode 6 and the snideness as though I'm just some demographic to pander to is rough. 

 

Or MAYBE just MAYBE they looked at two characters who are canonically queer and in a relationship in one of the books (and even if they weren't, loved the other person above all others), and thought continuing that relationship through to the current time was both good representation AND interesting for the plot and characters going forward. 

 

If they choose to include moments or character beats you consider interesting or relevant or important or that you feels represents you in some way or that you've always head-canoned, does it mean they're inherently pandering to you? 

[Samt]

Canonically queer is a bit of a stretch.

[psmith1990]

28 minutes ago, Samt said:

Canonically queer is a bit of a stretch.

 

Spoilers for New Spring, I guess. Just character/relationship quotes.

 

Spoiler

They're canonically pillow friends "continuing up the time they were raised Aes Sedai and to some extent for a time thereafter." According to RJ's own words, pillow friends canonically have sexual relationships. Moiraine also canonically "had never been as close to anyone as she was to Siuan. Or loved anyone as much." They canonically share a bed many times, including late in the book. At the time of New Spring, they've canonically been "practically in one another's belt pouches" for "six years". The other sisters canonically wonder why they don't just share a room and on their ascension to full sister, make sure their rooms are next to each others'. The other sisters also enable them their joint raising, very not of tradition, done as they hold hands. Late in New Spring, we learn that in their very first months in the Tower, they "pledge[d] "that what one owned belonged to the other as well." What's mine is yours...

 

Moiraine also canonically gets embarrassed and red-faced when they are explicitly referred to as pillow friends. Because of Cadsuane "spreading out all these intimacies!", reflecting that "how close she and Siuan had been was no one's business but theirs." I'm sorry, but how are you going to interpret that non-queerly? This is her own mind. Her POV. She's told that she'll want to take care choosing her "first man" and Moiraine is indignant. "First her and Siuan, now this. There were things one talked about, and things one did not!" Moiraine immediately compares and connects the comment about the man to what was said about Siuan earlier, even though the former is very clearly referring to a romantic/sexual relationship. And, so one assumes, does the latter. 

 

In Siuan's single POV, after internally correcting somebody who dared call Moiraine pretty instead of beautiful, and after reflecting on how they never keep secrets from each other, they canonically KISS. And then the chapter ends. Fade to black. 

 

Look, even in The Great Hunt, we learn they still consider each other "my dearest friend", that they still feel tingles when the other channels, even though it's been established how rare that is after the beginning, let alone the decades it's been for them since they've spent substantial time together. "You are the only one, Moiraine, with whom I can remember who I was." Their relationship is so important to them and their paths, and the fact that they can't spend time together is painful to them. Now we add in a continued romantic and sexual relationship as per the show and the stakes are even higher. 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by psmith1990

[DigificWriter]

There really is no need for the condescending dismissal of Siuanraine.

 

It happened, there's precedent for it in the source material, and it adds nuance and stakes to the overall narrative as it directly pertains to the television series' primary POV character (Moiraine).

[Samt]

1 hour ago, psmith1990 said:

 

Spoilers for New Spring, I guess. Just character/relationship quotes.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

They're canonically pillow friends "continuing up the time they were raised Aes Sedai and to some extent for a time thereafter." According to RJ's own words, pillow friends canonically have sexual relationships. Moiraine also canonically "had never been as close to anyone as she was to Siuan. Or loved anyone as much." They canonically share a bed many times, including late in the book. At the time of New Spring, they've canonically been "practically in one another's belt pouches" for "six years". The other sisters canonically wonder why they don't just share a room and on their ascension to full sister, make sure their rooms are next to each others'. The other sisters also enable them their joint raising, very not of tradition, done as they hold hands. Late in New Spring, we learn that in their very first months in the Tower, they "pledge[d] "that what one owned belonged to the other as well." What's mine is yours...

 

Moiraine also canonically gets embarrassed and red-faced when they are explicitly referred to as pillow friends. Because of Cadsuane "spreading out all these intimacies!", reflecting that "how close she and Siuan had been was no one's business but theirs." I'm sorry, but how are you going to interpret that non-queerly? This is her own mind. Her POV. She's told that she'll want to take care choosing her "first man" and Moiraine is indignant. "First her and Siuan, now this. There were things one talked about, and things one did not!" Moiraine immediately compares and connects the comment about the man to what was said about Siuan earlier, even though the former is very clearly referring to a romantic/sexual relationship. And, so one assumes, does the latter. 

 

In Siuan's single POV, after internally correcting somebody who dared call Moiraine pretty instead of beautiful, and after reflecting on how they never keep secrets from each other, they canonically KISS. And then the chapter ends. Fade to black. 

 

Look, even in The Great Hunt, we learn they still consider each other "my dearest friend", that they still feel tingles when the other channels, even though it's been established how rare that is after the beginning, let alone the decades it's been for them since they've spent substantial time together. "You are the only one, Moiraine, with whom I can remember who I was." Their relationship is so important to them and their paths, and the fact that they can't spend time together is painful to them. Now we add in a continued romantic and sexual relationship as per the show and the stakes are even higher. 

 

Like I said, canonically queer is a bit of a stretch. There is a passing hint that the characters experimented sexually as teenagers, years before the prequel and decades before the main story. We get not so much as a hint that either of them has the slightest thought about this during the timeframe of the books.  If you don’t read the prequel very carefully, you wouldn’t even suspect that there was anything.

[DigificWriter]

^ Every word of what you just said is wrong.

 

I'm not a book reader, and yet it's not hard to figure out what the true nature of Moiraine and Siuan's relationship was during their years of study at the Tower if one bothers to do even the most trivial amount of research.

 

Case in point being this article: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Pillowfriends...

[psmith1990]

30 minutes ago, Samt said:

Like I said, canonically queer is a bit of a stretch. There is a passing hint that the characters experimented sexually as teenagers, years before the prequel and decades before the main story. We get not so much as a hint that either of them has the slightest thought about this during the timeframe of the books.  If you don’t read the prequel very carefully, you wouldn’t even suspect that there was anything.

 

They are canonically pillow friends. Pillow friends canonically have a sexual relationship as per RJ. Even ignoring that confirmation, it's pretty clear, surely, based on Moiraine's own inner thoughts when Cadsuane refers to them that way? I don't quite understand how it's a 'stretch'. Do you need an explicit sex scene, or for them to announce their sexual orientation? I know how RJ often framed pillow friends as gay until graduation, so to speak, but these two literally - within months - were pledging to share everything and were together all the time. They were novices for three years, accepted for another three, and were 'close' for a time after that as well. That's over SIX YEARS. That's not a sexual experimentation, lol, especially considering that Moiraine speaks to never having been closer to or loving anyone as much as Siuan. 

 

I quoted some of The Great Hunt in my earlier post because I love that chapter. A lot. 

 

[SPOILER ToM]

 

Spoiler

Whilst I think RJ dealt with Moiraine's post Ghenjei relationships with Siuan AND Lan immensely unsatisfactorily, I think that's a reflection of author, not how we read the character earlier in the novels.

 

Moiraine and Siuan's relationship, in my reading, is foundational to New Spring, specifically, so I don't think their closeness is a blink and miss it type of thing. Or maybe it is and I'm just more attuned to it because I was so starved for representation. Who knows. Either way, it's canonical.

Edited June 19, 2023 by psmith1990

[Humbugged2]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

Like I said, canonically queer is a bit of a stretch. There is a passing hint that the characters experimented sexually as teenagers, years before the prequel and decades before the main story. We get not so much as a hint that either of them has the slightest thought about this during the timeframe of the books.  If you don’t read the prequel very carefully, you wouldn’t even suspect that there was anything.

 

Explained in very great detail by the author himself about just how gay they were and it was very ,

 

And about how gay are the other pillow friends ? Also very

 

So if  go by Jordan it is not 'a stretch '

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Since I originally posted this topic I figured I’d add my two cents. To start, I will say that I was surprised reading through the responses to see that this is a much deeper and more complex issue than I realized. I was curious about how people thought the relationship would be portrayed moving forward but only because the books don’t focus on it much not “because it’s two women”. I’m humbled by the opportunity to learn that I didn’t fully grasp how much deeper the issue is. thank you all for sharing your perspectives. 
 

I was surprised that some viewers saw it as a way to work in a sex scene to check a box, which implies they found it meaningless and without any basis for it in the source material or importance to the story. Until now I took it for granted that anyone who has read NS would be happy to see the inclusion of the deeper nature of their relationship. It made a significant difference to me when I read NS because I read it after completing the main series and I admit I didn’t pick up on it until I read NS. It really helped me to understand how much they’ve shared and how no one except the two of them could comprehend what they’ve given up for this cause. We don’t get to see it on page so much after NS but I appreciated seeing it on screen as a reminder of how sacred and deep the bond between them is. 
 

That’s my perspective on it but I thank you all for sharing yours. I’m still curious how it will play out and to be honest I would have no problem at all if the relationship continues on screen to the exclusion of Thom and bryne. On screen it might make more sense than trying to fit in the other love interests in a way that makes sense to viewers. Whatever happens I look forward to finding out!
 

[Gypsum]

Just chiming in to say that if the show cut out the whole plot line of Siuan's service to Bryne, I, for one, would not complain. That whole arc, going from some very demeaning servitude (and the spanking) to falling in love, was pretty squicky.

[king of nowhere]

13 hours ago, psmith1990 said:

 

 

  Hide contents

 Frankly, if it does mean they also completely scrap the romantic relationships with Thom and Gareth (and the accompanying stripping away of much of their mission/power in service to those men), I will be THRILLED. 

 

what stripping of power in servico to those men? both moiraine and siuan are the important person in the relationship, with the man being her warder. even gareth, a mighty general, ultimately is an aes sedai underling.

ok, siuan has to do menial work for bryne, I never considered how that can be seen by somebody as "putting women in their place - the kitchen". i've always seen it as just an indication that both siuan and gareth put a lot of stock into one's word. in any case, siuan's mission and power are not stripped in the slightest.

13 hours ago, Samt said:

It’s tawdry and gross because it’s clearly a sex scene for the sake of having a lesbian sex scene.

 

No, it's not. others have given details.

9 hours ago, Samt said:

Like I said, canonically queer is a bit of a stretch. There is a passing hint that the characters experimented sexually as teenagers, years before the prequel and decades before the main story.

"experimented sexually" would be appropriate if they had sex a couple times. it could pass as appropriate if it was just sex, considering aes sedai novices are kept away from men and some homosexual experimentation is normal in those circumstances (cfr. prisons).

but that's not the case here. siuan and moiraine have been extremely close for all of their years as novices and accepted (total 10 years, iirc), and they've been sharing a bed through most of that time.

You could argue that they were not lovers but best friends forever superplus who also had sex regularly, but I would argue that the two are basically the same thing.

so, queer.

Edited June 19, 2023 by king of nowhere

[DigificWriter]

6 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Since I originally posted this topic I figured I’d add my two cents. To start, I will say that I was surprised reading through the responses to see that this is a much deeper and more complex issue than I realized. I was curious about how people thought the relationship would be portrayed moving forward but only because the books don’t focus on it much not “because it’s two women”. I’m humbled by the opportunity to learn that I didn’t fully grasp how much deeper the issue is. thank you all for sharing your perspectives. 
 

I was surprised that some viewers saw it as a way to work in a sex scene to check a box, which implies they found it meaningless and without any basis for it in the source material or importance to the story. Until now I took it for granted that anyone who has read NS would be happy to see the inclusion of the deeper nature of their relationship. It made a significant difference to me when I read NS because I read it after completing the main series and I admit I didn’t pick up on it until I read NS. It really helped me to understand how much they’ve shared and how no one except the two of them could comprehend what they’ve given up for this cause. We don’t get to see it on page so much after NS but I appreciated seeing it on screen as a reminder of how sacred and deep the bond between them is. 
 

That’s my perspective on it but I thank you all for sharing yours. I’m still curious how it will play out and to be honest I would have no problem at all if the relationship continues on screen to the exclusion of Thom and bryne. On screen it might make more sense than trying to fit in the other love interests in a way that makes sense to viewers. Whatever happens I look forward to finding out!
 

 

I would argue that it's not actually a reasonable take to be demeaning and dismissive of the Siuanraine relationship or to deny that there's explicit Word of God (Robert Jordan) confirmation that there is textual precedent for it in the source material, precedent that Rafe and his writers drew on in order to deepen and enhance both of the characters involved, and will leave it at that.

 

I would like to point out, though, that the show doesn't just draw on Robert Jordan's comments about pillow-friends and the text of the novels in order to deepen Moiraine and Siuan's characters in relation to each other; it extends that to other characters as well, namely Alanna, her warders, and Liandrin, and does so by either heavily implying or outright stating that Moiraine also had pillow-friend relationships with Liandrin and Alanna and that Alanna's warders are as sexually active with and attracted to each other as they are to/with her (Alanna) directly.

 

 

[Samt]

I don't object to the relationship because it is homosexual.  I object because I think it's bad for the plot and character development.  My point about box checking is that I think it's clear they added a non-canonical, non-sensical sexual aspect to their relationship because they wanted to check a box.  It never would have been added to begin with if it had been a heterosexual relationship.  

 

Lots of characters in the stories share beds and most of the time it is non-sexual.  Moraine and Siuan are very close friends.  But both Robert Jordan's explanation of pillow friends and the plain reading of the text suggests that they stopped experimenting sexually long before the beginning of New Spring.  And at a minimum it would have stopped once they were raised.  They sacrificed a lot, but they didn't sacrifice their sexual relationship.  In the book, it was over for other reasons long before Gitara's death.  In the show, they haven't stopped it so nothing was sacrificed.  

 

@psmith1990I find it strikingly lacking in self awareness to simultaneously claim how important the representation was to you while also claiming that it wasn't about checking the box.  Box checking is done because some people think that representation is important.  I might be assuming, but it seems to me that the Siuanraine relationship is personally important to you precisely because of the homosexuality.  That is an example of precisely why I think that it was added in order to add more homosexuality to the show and not for plot and character development reasons.  

[DigificWriter]

17 minutes ago, Samt said:

I think it's clear they added a non-canonical, nonsensical sexual aspect to their relationship

 

And it's been demonstrated to you that your thinking is objectively and unequivocally wrong with regards to the canonical validity of the show making this choice, so your continued objections do very much come across as homophobic and condescendingly dismissive.

[Samt]

5 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

And it's been demonstrated to you that your thinking is objectively and unequivocally wrong with regards to the canonical validity of the show making this choice, so your continued objections do very much come across as homophobic and condescendingly dismissive.

No, it hasn't been demonstrated.  Siuan and Moraine don't have sex in TEoTW.   The show added that.  They don't even have sex in New Spring.  Your assertion to the contrary is both delusional and condescending.  

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

No, it hasn't been demonstrated.  Siuan and Moraine don't have sex in TEoTW.   The show added that.  They don't even have sex in New Spring.  Your assertion to the contrary is both delusional and condescending.  

so what? there's still plenty of canon that they had sex regularly for years and were romantically involved.

rand and egwene did not have sex in teotw - canonically, they never did.

perrin was given a wife.

and while I can agree or disagree with some of those changes, each one of them is clearly motivated by story reason. they want to externalize some points that in the books were internal. they want to show stuff that in the books is rendered through the internal processes of the characters.

siuan and moiraine is the same here. it moves forward a plot point that was made at the beginning of tgh, that M and S are very close and are conspiring together behind the rest of the tower. in the book, the fact that they were close was basically dropped exposition - something like "let's hope nobody in the tower remembers". upgrading their relationship is not a big change, and it does add drama and tension to the whole business. no bigger change than making rand and egwene closer than they ever were in the books.

 

look, I share your disliking for "box checking". I hate when something is marketed as "inclusive", because if you are using it as a selling point, it stops being inclusion and it becomes exploitation.

but that's not what happened here. the relationship makes sense for storytelling - there are reasons to include it. it is only a moderate change from established canon. Equally important, it was never used as marketing point. you don't get a shot of siuan and moiraine in the trailer; you don't hear rafe patting himself on the back on how progressive he was in putting that homosexual relationship.

It is not "just inserted for box checking and/or fanservice".

and the exact details on how exactly close were M and S as novices, and how long they remained such, is irrelevant for such a discussion.

Edited June 19, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Samt]

26 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

so what? there's still plenty of canon that they had sex regularly for years and were romantically involved.

rand and egwene did not have sex in teotw - canonically, they never did.

perrin was given a wife.

and while I can agree or disagree with some of those changes, each one of them is clearly motivated by story reason. they want to externalize some points that in the books were internal. they want to show stuff that in the books is rendered through the internal processes of the characters.

siuan and moiraine is the same here. it moves forward a plot point that was made at the beginning of tgh, that M and S are very close and are conspiring together behind the rest of the tower. in the book, the fact that they were close was basically dropped exposition - something like "let's hope nobody in the tower remembers". upgrading their relationship is not a big change, and it does add drama and tension to the whole business. no bigger change than making rand and egwene closer than they ever were in the books.

 

look, I share your disliking for "box checking". I hate when something is marketed as "inclusive", because if you are using it as a selling point, it stops being inclusion and it becomes exploitation.

but that's not what happened here. the relationship makes sense for storytelling - there are reasons to include it. it is only a moderate change from established canon. Equally important, it was never used as marketing point. you don't get a shot of siuan and moiraine in the trailer; you don't hear rafe patting himself on the back on how progressive he was in putting that homosexual relationship.

It is not "just inserted for box checking and/or fanservice".

and the exact details on how exactly close were M and S as novices, and how long they remained such, is irrelevant for such a discussion.

For sure, I don't like the other changes you mentioned either.  The Rand/Egwene sex scene is probably grosser and lazier.  It just feels like the creators wanted some sex in episode 1 to make it clear this was "adult" fantasy. And then they couldn't figure out how to portray a real relationship been Rand and Egwene with pants on.  So two problems with one sex scene. It doesn't make any sense for unwed sex to be commonplace in a primitive agrarian society.  And the scene isn't really set up like it's a one time/first time thing but rather seems to suggest that Rand and Egwene are regularly sexually active.  

 

And don't get me started on Perrin's wife.  I'll grant that is more of a story choice.  But it's a really bad story choice.  

 

I'll admit my bar is high for good changes.  I think that they should have definitely errored on the side of staying closer to the books.