Ending of MoL.... Rand and Tam really bothered me (spoilers)

[Disco]

I recently reread the series for the first time in over a decade. Things have changed in my life then, I am now a parent.

 

Something really bothered me and the end of MoL. Okay so.. Rand and Tam was always treated a little strangely. Rand never saw Tam again until Cadsuane brought them together. Rand told himself he was protecting them and maybe be believed it. But this was "dark rand" and to an extent it all made sense.

 

But then we have "Zen Rand" who loves his father and thinks that his upbringing is the main difference between him and Lews. Yet... he lets Tam bury him! Even if Tam finds out the next day that Rand is dead, Tam spent 24 hours having buried his only child. That's horrible. But even having said that, I get no indication Rand is going to reveal himself to Tam as he rides away. 

 

Elayne, Min and Avi know. Cadsuane knows and Nynaeve probably does, or knows enough. Sometimes I think that Moirane had a right to know, but perhaps not. Really as I go away from the book I have to have faith that Nynaeve would figure it out and tell Tam. Despite her... demeanour at the start of the books... she really becomes  a voice of wisdom at the end. And she deeply cares for people, especially Two Rivers folk. I cannot see her allowing Tam to mourn the death of his boy like that. But as I read the books, Rand apparently doesn't care. I do not think Elayne would ever tell Tam, nor do I think Min would. Avi might, she has more honour and sense about these things than the others. But now I am really getting into theory-land. 

 

I have seen a few old threads theorising what Rand will do with his new life. But no one seemed to think that Tam had been mistreated, it was more like "maybe he will tell Tam, maybe he won't". 

 

I guess there is another question.. where does it stop? Mat might tell his wife. Perrin could probably be trusted. The more people know the more it might become known, which obviously Rand wants to avoid. 

 

So I guess my rant ends with... do you think Tam was harshly done by at the end? Do you think Rand would tell him? Do you think anyone else would?

[Sabio]

Thinking Rand died a hero is better than being told your sons soul is now walking around in another body. That might be pretty freaky to deal with.   Rand's plan to live a normal life would be ruined if he told Tam, Perin, Mat, Nyn, Moiraine, etc.  What's that saying in the book a clean wound heals the quickest?  Not to mention Rand has no idea what has happened to all of the Forsaken, anyone he cares about is still a target if any surviving Forsaken gets a hint he might still be alive.

[Disco]

I don't find that convincing for Tam. Tam has seen his son become Dragon and survived the last battle. He could deal with his son looking different. 

 

Tam is still a target whether he knows of Rand or not. You want to keep Mat and Perrin the dark I would understand, but not your father. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Disco

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

5 hours ago, Disco said:

I recently reread the series for the first time in over a decade. Things have changed in my life then, I am now a parent.

 

Something really bothered me and the end of MoL. Okay so.. Rand and Tam was always treated a little strangely. Rand never saw Tam again until Cadsuane brought them together. Rand told himself he was protecting them and maybe be believed it. But this was "dark rand" and to an extent it all made sense.

 

But then we have "Zen Rand" who loves his father and thinks that his upbringing is the main difference between him and Lews. Yet... he lets Tam bury him! Even if Tam finds out the next day that Rand is dead, Tam spent 24 hours having buried his only child. That's horrible. But even having said that, I get no indication Rand is going to reveal himself to Tam as he rides away. 

 

Elayne, Min and Avi know. Cadsuane knows and Nynaeve probably does, or knows enough. Sometimes I think that Moirane had a right to know, but perhaps not. Really as I go away from the book I have to have faith that Nynaeve would figure it out and tell Tam. Despite her... demeanour at the start of the books... she really becomes  a voice of wisdom at the end. And she deeply cares for people, especially Two Rivers folk. I cannot see her allowing Tam to mourn the death of his boy like that. But as I read the books, Rand apparently doesn't care. I do not think Elayne would ever tell Tam, nor do I think Min would. Avi might, she has more honour and sense about these things than the others. But now I am really getting into theory-land. 

 

I have seen a few old threads theorising what Rand will do with his new life. But no one seemed to think that Tam had been mistreated, it was more like "maybe he will tell Tam, maybe he won't". 

 

I guess there is another question.. where does it stop? Mat might tell his wife. Perrin could probably be trusted. The more people know the more it might become known, which obviously Rand wants to avoid. 

 

So I guess my rant ends with... do you think Tam was harshly done by at the end? Do you think Rand would tell him? Do you think anyone else would?

I hear ya. I know it’s a story and all but it’s hard for me to dismiss the effects of the outcome on people like tam. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

4 hours ago, Sabio said:

Thinking Rand died a hero is better than being told your sons soul is now walking around in another body. That might be pretty freaky to deal with.   Rand's plan to live a normal life would be ruined if he told Tam, Perin, Mat, Nyn, Moiraine, etc.  What's that saying in the book a clean wound heals the quickest?  Not to mention Rand has no idea what has happened to all of the Forsaken, anyone he cares about is still a target if any surviving Forsaken gets a hint he might still be alive.

In the context of in world logistics, this makes sense 

[Wassup]

I have read the ending both before and after becoming a father.  I have a different perspective to the ending now, though. 

 

What do you think would be a better, less harsh ending overall?

Tam believes his son died a hero and has the closure of burying him and grieving properly or he learns of Rand still living, but cannot ever see him again and will always wonder what kind of end he will come to?  Will his son live well, will he be hunted, will he be suffering or lonely?  There is no closure there, just a never ending yearning and hope to see his son again before he himself passes on.

 

I know I painted the latter kind of bleak.  However, to me it is cleaner to have the closure.  So, it was a little biased in the presentation.

[Disco]

3 hours ago, Wassup said:

I have read the ending both before and after becoming a father.  I have a different perspective to the ending now, though. 

 

What do you think would be a better, less harsh ending overall?

Tam believes his son died a hero and has the closure of burying him and grieving properly or he learns of Rand still living, but cannot ever see him again and will always wonder what kind of end he will come to?  Will his son live well, will he be hunted, will he be suffering or lonely?  There is no closure there, just a never ending yearning and hope to see his son again before he himself passes on.

 

I know I painted the latter kind of bleak.  However, to me it is cleaner to have the closure.  So, it was a little biased in the presentation.

I mean suffering/lonely is just "life" and something that applies to all kids

 

Would I prefer my kid is dead or "might become dead" yes I'm thinking the latter

 

Overall I'm sorry I can't see any reason why Tam shouldn't know the truth and why he would prefer to think of his son as dead than alive

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

2 hours ago, Disco said:

I mean suffering/lonely is just "life" and something that applies to all kids

 

Would I prefer my kid is dead or "might become dead" yes I'm thinking the latter

 

Overall I'm sorry I can't see any reason why Tam shouldn't know the truth and why he would prefer to think of his son as dead than alive

The only thing I can think of depends on how Tam learns the truth. If Rand himself confides in Tam, that would probably be easier than if Tam found out some other way because then he might feel hurt by Rand choosing to leave him behind believing him dead. But who knows…as parents we might prefer any outcome for our children compared with death. “Death is so final, life is full of possibilities” one of which might include reuniting with Rand in the future. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

6 hours ago, Wassup said:

I have read the ending both before and after becoming a father.  I have a different perspective to the ending now, though. 

 

What do you think would be a better, less harsh ending overall?

Tam believes his son died a hero and has the closure of burying him and grieving properly or he learns of Rand still living, but cannot ever see him again and will always wonder what kind of end he will come to?  Will his son live well, will he be hunted, will he be suffering or lonely?  There is no closure there, just a never ending yearning and hope to see his son again before he himself passes on.

 

I know I painted the latter kind of bleak.  However, to me it is cleaner to have the closure.  So, it was a little biased in the presentation.

I can definitely appreciate the value of closure…hate to bring up a devastating scenario but parents whose kids have gone missing tend to suffer more than the ones who know for certain they have passed. Horrific to consider choosing between the two and implying one is actually preferable to another, but I mention it only to illustrate that I see your point. The thing that I find important in life though is letting people have the ability to make choices. I’m always uncomfortable with the idea that someone is deceived or in whatever way deprived of their right to their decisions, (in this case assuming Tam is better off not knowing,) no matter how well intentioned it may be, because someone else decides that it’s “for their own good”. Just a thought, but I do see your point and understand where you’re coming from. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Wassup]

8 hours ago, Disco said:

I mean suffering/lonely is just "life" and something that applies to all kids

 

Would I prefer my kid is dead or "might become dead" yes I'm thinking the latter

 

Overall I'm sorry I can't see any reason why Tam shouldn't know the truth and why he would prefer to think of his son as dead than alive

 

I was not looking at this as a case where Tam shouldn't know the truth.  It was more looking at how Jordan wrote it.  If I remember correctly, it was Rand's decision.  I think it is in line with how Rand made choices regarding his father and others that he cared about.  Our children never know or understand us as well as we know/understand them.  Until they have children of their own, their perspective and understanding is truly one sided.  I can see Rand thinking this is what is best for his father.

That is what I was drawing my previous response from, anyway.

 

6 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

The only thing I can think of depends on how Tam learns the truth. If Rand himself confides in Tam, that would probably be easier than if Tam found out some other way because then he might feel hurt by Rand choosing to leave him behind believing him dead. But who knows…as parents we might prefer any outcome for our children compared with death. “Death is so final, life is full of possibilities” one of which might include reuniting with Rand in the future. 

 

I agree with your sentiment on how parents feel.  However, using the perspective of Randland, they mourn the loss of loved ones, but feel some comfort in knowing the wheel will spin them out again.  So, to them, death is not final.

 

I would definitely want to know if my child was alive.  I can fully see my child thinking it is best if I think they are dead, especially if there may still be evil forces out there that would use or hurt me because of it.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

17 hours ago, Wassup said:

 

I was not looking at this as a case where Tam shouldn't know the truth.  It was more looking at how Jordan wrote it.  If I remember correctly, it was Rand's decision.  I think it is in line with how Rand made choices regarding his father and others that he cared about.  Our children never know or understand us as well as we know/understand them.  Until they have children of their own, their perspective and understanding is truly one sided.  I can see Rand thinking this is what is best for his father.

That is what I was drawing my previous response from, anyway.

 

 

I agree with your sentiment on how parents feel.  However, using the perspective of Randland, they mourn the loss of loved ones, but feel some comfort in knowing the wheel will spin them out again.  So, to them, death is not final.

 

I would definitely want to know if my child was alive.  I can fully see my child thinking it is best if I think they are dead, especially if there may still be evil forces out there that would use or hurt me because of it.

All very good points IMO

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I was thinking about Rand choosing to live on after the events of WOT but as a new/anonymous identity, and had a question that I thought might fit in with this thread, at least enough to not require its own thread. So…speaking of what comes after, presumably Rand starting a new life. Does that leave room for his wives and children or does he leave everything behind? The wives seem pretty chill with him leaving 

[Gypsum]

Given the narrative follows him for all of five minutes after he gets out of bed, gathers the horse, clothes, and money that Alivia left for him, then gallops away, what he does afterwards is left to the reader's imagination. And probably some fan fiction (I haven't looked).  At the time, he certainly thinks he's going to stay anonymous and see the world as a nobody traveller, but people change their minds. He's also not stupid -- he will be well aware that the women he's bonded to know he's alive, so he'll have to deal with that at some point.

 

But dealing with them and dealing with his father are Future Rand's Problems when we see him riding into the sunset at the end of the final book. Present Rand is more or less saying, "F^&k it," which is fair, given everything he has been through.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Gypsum

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

17 hours ago, Gypsum said:

Given the narrative follows him for all of five minutes after he gets out of bed, gathers the horse, clothes, and money that Alivia left for him, then gallops away, what he does afterwards is left to the reader's imagination. And probably some fan fiction (I haven't looked).  At the time, he certainly thinks he's going to stay anonymous and see the world as a nobody traveller, but people change their minds. He's also not stupid -- he will be well aware that the women he's bonded to know he's alive, so he'll have to deal with that at some point.

 

But dealing with them and dealing with his father are Future Rand's Problems when we see him riding into the sunset at the end of the final book. Present Rand is more or less saying, "F^&k it," which is fair, given everything he has been through.

Thank you for your thoughts, what you say makes sense. One thing though…do you think the bonds remain intact after the body swap? I guess as you pointed out, we have limited information to go on, but I’m curious if it transferred. 

[RextheDog]

the girls know hes alive....bond or no bond....they know, and he knows ...

 

regarding Tam, theres no way Rand just wanders into the sunset and travels the world without putting Tam at ease.......theres 14 books of Rands growth i provide as evidence....

 

i understand its not written in lore, but the lore had to end somewhere.

 

Rand wont leave Tam in misery, if you think he will, just re read the books

[Gypsum]

8 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

the girls know hes alive....bond or no bond....they know, and he knows ...

 

regarding Tam, theres no way Rand just wanders into the sunset and travels the world without putting Tam at ease.......theres 14 books of Rands growth i provide as evidence....

 

i understand its not written in lore, but the lore had to end somewhere.

 

Rand wont leave Tam in misery, if you think he will, just re read the books

 

Indeed. I read it a couple summers ago, but I think it was implied that the bond was intact, and they knew. And he knew that they knew. As I recall, most of the funeral chapter was in Nynaeve's POV, and she was baffled and upset that Min, Elayne, and Aviendha were so calm about it all.

[KimMueller]

I agreed with you, I wasn't expecting it will end like that.

[Scarloc99]

For me I feel this is one of the ways Brandon Sanderson changed things with the characters from what RJ might have done. There are lots of little things where I feel the voices change in terms of things they say, ways they behave (slightly) and sometimes actions they take. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I can only concur the ending feels off. The end part from Rand's POV is just so egocentric, the mounds of dead at Merrilor, Egwene, Rhuarc (ok not at Merrilor, but still), Hurin, etc., but he got out of it, his harem is intact, and he is one jolly little roger. 

 

It just does not fit the book or the character that the cost of victory is not nearly unbearable, that he does not wish that he somehow could have protected them more, he was the Dragon, it was meant to be his blood at Shayol Ghul, it just feels wrong.

 

Nope, I'll just light my cancer-giving pipe (who wants to live hundreds of years?), and toddle off into the sunset with a grin and my new powers that I did nothing to earn. 

 

All those dead people? Bunch of losers, good riddance. And those that survived? Light, I've put up with them long enough. Why couldn't they all have died?

 

Am I overreacting? I think I might be... 

[Aan-Alone]

"To live, you must die". Word-for-word answer to Rand, from the Finns, about how to survive TG, iirc.

With the body swap, this becomes 'we bury Moridin/Ishmael as the Dragon and let Randland mourn'.

 

Hmm...I was going to say, as I have previously elsewhere, that since Avi, Elayne, and Min aren't freaking out due to the loss of their warder, we can know the bond still exists. However, is this bond the same as the AS warder bond? Maybe moot as I also recall Rand commenting that he still has all three inside his head.

 

So I'm going with the bond wasn't severed. Which explains Avi's, Elayne's, and Min's calm demeanor during the funeral. I guess their positions could also explain their lack of wailing and such [Wise One/ Queen/TruthSayer respectively]. Itregardless, I believe they know Rand lives still. Once Nynaeve calms down, she'll figure it out or at least have a conversation with one/all of them. Cads knows based on what she says to Rand as he's leaving the funeral.

 

Can any of these 5 women tell Tam publicly in such a way as to insure the secret remains?  No expert but I don't see how. Whatever threat this false-front is providing cover against, I feel like it's planned to be permanent. So Tam would have to suffer some full measure of grief.

 

But why are we to assume Tam doesn't already know? I recall reading, most likely on here, that Team Jordan put out a statement to the effect that Rand would be involved in raising his kids. If he's doing that, then at some point he's also met with/told Grandpa. His 'superior upbringing' would demand it, no? And why do we assume Rand is riding off to nowhere special? Maybe he's getting a head start back to the Two Rivers and Tam, et all, will catch him up on the road? 

 

Rand will do the right thing. We just won't be there to see it. At least not officially.

 

Didn't expect to ramble this long...