Questions arising from LOC reread

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’ve read the whole series once and currently on my first reread. On LOC now and a couple of things I have questions about. Do we know who killed the tinkers found by mats band and do we know who attempted to kill mat? Also do we know who is behind sending the “supposed aiel” to attack damira of the salidar emissary implicating Rand was behind it? 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

For each of those the most likely candidate is Fain - he exhibits a profound dislike of tinkers in the previous book and has a number of followers influenced by mashadar who he sets to interfere with Rand.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

25 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

For each of those the most likely candidate is Fain - he exhibits a profound dislike of tinkers in the previous book and has a number of followers influenced by mashadar who he sets to interfere with Rand.

Wow I never even considered it could be Fain! I feel like a dumb dumb. Thank you so much for your clarification. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

14 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Wow I never even considered it could be Fain! I feel like a dumb dumb. Thank you so much for your clarification. 

All I could think of was maybe the shaido sponsored by the forsaken (was it sammael and graendal?)  for the first two I mentioned, especially the assasination attempt on mat since he is sure someone made a gateway for the assassins and maybe some daes de mar shananagins for the last scenario I discussed. Fain certainly potentially has more influence on events than I previously considered. 

[KakitaOCU]

Less specific evidence and more just fitting.  Remember, at the time of writing LOC Demandred was not in Shara, he was Mazrim Taim sent to sew chaos in the westlands.   So when I originally read it I assume it was him behind it.  Because I didn't have clear answers but in the end Demandred asks Shai'Tan if he is pleased.

Then later when RJ changed Demandred's story I never thought back to realize that caused a gap.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

11 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Less specific evidence and more just fitting.  Remember, at the time of writing LOC Demandred was not in Shara, he was Mazrim Taim sent to sew chaos in the westlands.   So when I originally read it I assume it was him behind it.  Because I didn't have clear answers but in the end Demandred asks Shai'Tan if he is pleased.

Then later when RJ changed Demandred's story I never thought back to realize that caused a gap.

I didn’t know demandred WAS originally taim. I was certain that demandred  was taim when I was reading and I was so sure that it was him and then when it wasn’t I accepted that I missed something or it was a deliberate attempt to mislead. I read the books back to back not so long ago so I didn’t realize a lot of the knowledge the OG community has gained during the wait between books. I remember feeling so satisfied with demandred fitting in so well with what I thought was the plot, then so disoriented with the mental regroup when it wasn’t him. Good insight, thank you 

[KakitaOCU]

Terez over at Theoryland found it in the notes a while back.  Here's the actual quotes from RJ's notes and then the link where Terez talks about it.  It also reveals who originally killed Asmodean.

Regarding the section called "People" in Box 55
"Taim/Demandred showed up, not so much because his party wants Rand free -- though that might be a point in their plans; on the other hand, Rand in the hands of the White Tower, and thus within Mesaana's power, could still cause one hell of a lot of chaos -- but because of learning that the Shaido were moving in. They could not be sure the Aes Sedai could drive off the Shaido, nor that the Shaido would not kill Rand. And a rescued Rand, pissed at the Aes Sedai will [U]really[/U] be a source of chaos and disunity."

Then in the same box about what Nynaeve does or doesn't know at the time of writing.
 

"She does not know that Aginor (Osan'gar) and Balthamel (Aran'gar) were resurrected, the latter as a woman who is now masquerading as Halima, Delana's secretary/companion.

She knows that Moghedien was prisoner, of course. Until she is/was informed by Egwene, Siuan or Leane, she thinks Moghedien is still a prisoner.

She does not know that Asmodean was a prisoner of Rand, nor, of course, that he was killed by Demandred."

http://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767

No one knows exactly when he changed his mind, but pretty sure him deliberately having Demandred not recognize Finn during the Cleansing was a purposeful "Hey, Demandred isn't in the Black Tower." piece.

Edited February 14, 2023 by KakitaOCU

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

She does not know that Asmodean was a prisoner of Rand, nor, of course, that he was killed by Demandred."

 

Wait what, I thought Graendal killed Asmodean? I mean that has been stated pretty clearly, did RJ change his mind on that before or after writing the death? 

[SinisterDeath]

12 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Wait what, I thought Graendal killed Asmodean? I mean that has been stated pretty clearly, did RJ change his mind on that before or after writing the death? 

Old notes vs New Notes.
Similar to the notes that talk about a 6th Emmond fielder that fled with Moiraine.

[KakitaOCU]

Official Canon is that Graendal killed Asmodean.  That's the end result.

The above quote is from RJ's personal notes, which were labyrinthine and jumbled in a way that he understood but precious few others did.  The notes I quoted were all written while he was working on Lord of Chaos.   At that time Demandred showed up in Caemlyn, killed Asmodean, introduced himself to Rand as Mazrim Taim and began infiltrating the Black Tower (Then the Farm).

Sometime between then and when he was writing Winter's Heart this changed.  Don't know why, some think he felt we (the fandom) figured it out too easy, some that he just rewrote for other reasons. 

  

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Similar to the notes that talk about a 6th Emmond fielder that fled with Moiraine.

Ah, poor Dannil.

Edited February 14, 2023 by KakitaOCU

[DojoToad]

😱Aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

Demandred is/isn't Taim

Olver is/isn't Gaidal Cain

Bela did/didn't die

Nakomi is/isn't the creator's avatar

 

Add changes for the show.  My poor, simple mind is turning to mush...

Edited February 14, 2023 by DojoToad

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Official Canon is that Graendal killed Asmodean.  That's the end result.

The above quote is from RJ's personal notes, which were labyrinthine and jumbled in a way that he understood but precious few others did.  The notes I quoted were all written while he was working on Lord of Chaos.   At that time Demandred showed up in Caemlyn, killed Asmodean, introduced himself to Rand as Mazrim Taim and began infiltrating the Black Tower (Then the Farm).

Sometime between then and when he was writing Winter's Heart this changed.  Don't know why, some think he felt we (the fandom) figured it out too easy, some that he just rewrote for other reasons. 

  

Ah, poor Dannil.

You learn something new every day, although somehow learning that something as minor as “who killed Asmodean” possibly  re written because the audience had figured it out makes me feel slightly less of him as an author. Not sure why, I suppose I always assumed that once he had committed something to paper then that would become cast in stone, even if the “background” was never known by the reader. 
 

I equate it to my experience as a DM, I create my world as I go around what my players do and what they ask. I have a myriad of ideas floating around that change and flux, until the moment I have to say something out loud. At that point the idea is fixed in place, even if it isn’t all known by the players yet. It’s also, on a simpler level, like changing the hitpoints of a monster midway through combat. Just not cricket :). 

[KakitaOCU]

To be clear, that's a theory, we don't know for sure.  

But I'd point out this is very like your DM example.  These weren't things written into the actual story and then ret-conned, these were his personal notes.  Akin to something like when I ran Wild Beyond the Witchlight I added in two grandchildren of Zybilna based on Gwydion and Arianrhod of Welsh Mythology.  If you read the notes of the book they don't exist, but my changing things to put them in isn't retconning, it's establishing Canon in my universe.

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 it's establishing Canon in my universe.

So in my universe canon can be Olver is Gaidal?  😉

[KakitaOCU]

I mean for you personally?  Sure.   Same way I am 100% on board with Fain being set up to be the new DO if Rand chose wrong.

Nothing wrong with Fan Canon so long as it's acknowledged as such.

Heck, WAY back in the 90's there was a Wheel of Time based Chatroom Role Play on AOL.  I randomly came up with an idea that if you could channel opposite sides of the sources AND they had created artificial life, why not both?

Had a whole convoluted lore set up for creatures that were made that wielded the opposite power of their presenting gender that were old, like the Golam.   Was very well developed.  Never existed in the real book, but in my imagination they're still there, one of them as an Asha'Man serving Rand directly. 🙂 

It's all fun and imagination in the end.  

Edited February 14, 2023 by KakitaOCU

[Scarloc99]

14 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

To be clear, that's a theory, we don't know for sure.  

But I'd point out this is very like your DM example.  These weren't things written into the actual story and then ret-conned, these were his personal notes.  Akin to something like when I ran Wild Beyond the Witchlight I added in two grandchildren of Zybilna based on Gwydion and Arianrhod of Welsh Mythology.  If you read the notes of the book they don't exist, but my changing things to put them in isn't retconning, it's establishing Canon in my universe.

Oh no issues if they are just in notes and he decided when he actually published Asmodeans death he decided Graendal

did it, I suppose I see it as cheating if 5 books later he changed his mind. 

 

It is supposedly why such bad choices where made late on in GOT, no idea if it is true but the accepted idea is that D&D saw that the fans had predicted certain things, and so changed them so as to make the twist shock and surprise. 

[KakitaOCU]

Possibly, and also, we don't know when he changed his mind, the time frame I put is the extreme.   We know from his notes that during the writing of LOC Demandred was Taim and killed Asmodean.

We know in The Cleansing during Winter's Heart that Demandred clearly has no idea who Finn is, meaning he can't be Taim since Taim personally tested and trained Finn at the start.

There's no telling when during that stretch RJ made the change, just that he did.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:33 AM, DojoToad said:

😱Aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

Demandred is/isn't Taim

Olver is/isn't Gaidal Cain

Bela did/didn't die

Nakomi is/isn't the creator's avatar

 

Add changes for the show.  My poor, simple mind is turning to mush...

I love this. We should be friends irl 😂