Is The Breaking really the make Aes Sedais’ fault?

[Ashaman novice]

One of the things that most bothered me about the wheel of time books was that all of the characters acted like it was the men’s fault that the Breaking happened. Yes, it was the men that did it, but it wasn’t their fault. They were insane. The Aes Sedai dismiss this as being because of the strike at Shayol Ghul, but LTT and the Companions had to do something. The choedan kal were stolen, and the female AS still would not give in. 
 

And yet almost everyone in the WoT seems to still blame the male AS. Does anyone know why?

[Sabio]

You have to remember a lot of the story has been lost over time.  The Aes Sedai might have knowledge in the WT library but they aren't going to share it.  Few if any of the age even have any clue what the Choedan Kal are.  What most people know is LTT and the men went ahead with the plan to seal the DO's prison over the objections of the others.  

Edited January 19, 2023 by Sabio

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

This is an aspect of the unreliable narrator in WOT - indeed several less well informed characters refer to the breaking as the fault of all channelers.  More importantly for the plot

Spoiler

the taint is generally referred to as "the dark ones counterstroke" when it becomes clear that the taint was the inevitable consequence of sealing the bore without control of the true power and that the only effect of male and female working together in the AOL for the sealing would have been to spread the taint to both halves of the source (perhaps more weakly but still a greater catastrophe than actually occurred).

 

[Stedding Tofu]

6 hours ago, Sabio said:

What most people know is LTT and the men went ahead with the plan to seal the DO's prison over the objections of the others.  

 

I think not even this is known.  Early in the story we are shown that rumour and hearsay is that Aes Sedai caused The Breaking or that Aes Sedai are Darkfriends.  As you say, a lot has been lost over three thousand years and The Breaking / Trolloc Wars / War of The Hundred Years.  As there have been no male Aes Sedai for three thousand years the women get the stick - hence The Children of The Light and the suspicion in most countries and traditions like in Tear where a woman who can channel has to leave the day after she learns she can and never return ( of course men who can channel get hunted down and gentled).

 

What they are taught is that The Dragon - a man who went mad and killed everyone he loved - pretty much destroyed the world and will come again and do the same.

 

8 hours ago, Ashaman novice said:

One of the things that most bothered me about the wheel of time books was that all of the characters acted like it was the men’s fault that the Breaking happened. Yes, it was the men that did it, but it wasn’t their fault. They were insane.

 

That seems pretty realistic for a medieval take on individual responsibility / criminal insanity.  And you have to bear in mind the events were catclysmic not merely unpleasant or shocking, civilization was almost destroyed, the physical world was literally reshaped with mountains and seas appearing  and whole cities being destroyed. 

 

Take Rand's Rhuidean vision where his ancestor hears the Aes Sedai recount how two of The Hundred Companions travelled to the second greatest city in the world and destroyed every single Aiel who tried to form a barrier and turn them aside by singing before utterly destroying the city and anyone who had not managed to flee in time.  Would they really shrug and say the destruction of their world and loss of almost everything and everyone they loved wasn't the fault of the people who did it?  The analogy would be if a madman launched nukes that wiped out 90% of the world's population, destroyed every major civilization, every advanced industry and technology and pushed the shattered survivors back to a nomadic pre-industrial society.  Would we say "but it wasn't his fault because he didn't know what he was doing?".  I don't think that's a likely response.

[Samt]

One of the things that I suspected early on in the series was that the taint was a result of the fact that saidin was exposed by the lack of saidar channelers present at the dark one’s binding.  This is suggested by various things and seems plausible given the general theme that saidin and saidar used together in collaboration produces the best results.  
 

Of course, we find out later that this is not really the case. It’s confirmed that if Saidar channelers had come it would have just tainted both halves. It’s interesting that this suggests things could have been much worse. If all channelers went insane, the world would likely have not survived. At best, maybe you would end up with white cloaks going around and killing everyone who responded to fork root. 
 

However, more interesting to me is the implication that actually things could not likely have gone much better at the original binding. The forces of light did not know what they needed to bind the dark one nor did they have a reasonable plan to get it. This makes the actions and decisions of Lutra and Lews perhaps both more heroic and more tragic. It wasn’t simply two people too proud to agree to help each other. It was two people who had no good options but had to try.

 

They certainly didn’t fully know everything that would happen, but they probably knew they had no good options.  If LTT doesn’t go to bind the DO, the DO will eventually escape and win.  If they try, failure is likely and the consequences were disastrous.  So I suspect that both of them agreed on some implicit level that they would take responsibility for a likely disaster since it was the only chance they had to save the world. LTT to go likely to his doom and Lutra to stay behind and deal with the likely disastrous consequences.

 

Adding to this theory is that LTT didn’t bring any Saidar channelers to the binding. Of course, we know that Lutra refused to go and convinced many prominent Saidar channelers to promise not to go. But there were tens or even perhaps hundreds of thousands of Aes Sedai at the time.  It’s hard to believe that LTT, who was the Tamerlan Seat and a recognized leader of the forces of light couldn’t have found some Saidar channelers to come with him if he wanted. Perhaps they wouldn’t have been the most powerful, but 37 moderately powerful female Aes Sedai would have allowed him to make a full circle. If he really thought that he could succeed through strength alone, creating a circle that he could lead would have made the most sense.  So it seems that LTT’s decision to not bring any Saidar channelers was a tacit acknowledgment that he understood his chance of success was small and that protecting the future of humanity by keeping Saidar pure at all costs was tantamount.

 

Also, it makes strategic sense to risk Saidin rather than Saidar since Saidar channelers can link on their own.  Any 13 Saidar channelers would be enough to hunt down the most power rogue Saidin channeler.  If 13 rogue Saidar channelers went crazy but maintained enough strategic reasoning to link, it would get messy. Saidin channelers would have no option but to try to just kill the individual Saidar channelers since shielding would not be an option (and the Saidin channelers would themselves be vulnerable to shielding and severing from the linked Saidar channelers).

[SinisterDeath]

14 hours ago, Samt said:

Adding to this theory is that LTT didn’t bring any Saidar channelers to the binding. Of course, we know that Lutra refused to go and convinced many prominent Saidar channelers to promise not to go. But there were tens or even perhaps hundreds of thousands of Aes Sedai at the time.  It’s hard to believe that LTT, who was the Tamerlan Seat and a recognized leader of the forces of light couldn’t have found some Saidar channelers to come with him if he wanted. Perhaps they wouldn’t have been the most powerful, but 37 moderately powerful female Aes Sedai would have allowed him to make a full circle.

I always knew that the hundred companions had no women among them, but it didn't click until today that it would have been impossible for those men to form a circle... That actually reinforces how much of a suicide mission it was for me.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

I always knew that the hundred companions had no women among them, but it didn't click until today that it would have been impossible for those men to form a circle... That actually reinforces how much of a suicide mission it was for me.

Can men form a circle of any size, or were they all on their own?

Edited January 20, 2023 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Can men form a circle of any size, or were they all on their own?

Men cannot form any circle without a woman.

Women can start a circle with up to 12 other women. They can then add in 1 man, and 13 more women, after that it's 1-8 upto 72 total.
 

[Samt]

There are a number of limitations for circle formation and leadership. There always have to be women. There need to be more women than men if there are more than two men. The maximum number of women for a given number of men is given by the rules listed above.  The total number can't be more than 72.  There are also some rules as to when only a man or woman can lead.  The best circles are stated to have as close to a gender balance as possible while not breaking the other rules.  

 

One thing that I wasn't sure on was whether the limitations only apply to circle formation or if they also apply to circle maintenance.  Asmodean states that Lanfear could have linked Rand and him so that the lessons would have been more effective.  This seems to imply that after a circle is formed, other rules apply to whether or not the circle can be maintained.  Could Lanfear create the circle and then leave, with Asmo and Rand remaining linked?  Was Asmodean suggesting that Lanfear should have stayed behind and maintained the link?  Was Asmo just making things up to try and trick Rand?  I'm not even sure how they could have used the circle since I don't see how Rand could have trusted Asmodean with control of the circle and if Rand maintained control of the circle that wouldn't have been much use for demonstration purposes.  

[SinisterDeath]

@Samt
Found this on the interview database.
 

This final bit explains that they weren't linked at all.

[Sabio]

It is the men's fault, but the pattern pretty much set them up for failure.  They had no chance, it was part of LTT's memories that gave Rand the knowledge and ideas how to do it successfully.  LTT and the companions really had no idea what they were doing, they had to fail so the Dragon could be reborn etc.  The pattern made sure the plan would be enacted but that it would also fail.  LTT pretty much got screwed over.

[Elendir]

I see breaking of world as fault of poor communication. Both male and female sedai had their insane plane and couldn't agree which of them carry out.

 

We have no reliable information about any what if.

What if female sedai went with Dragon. Would be DO unable to retaliate or both half of one power would end corrupted?

If Choedan Kal (female plane) was used, would they defeat DO without risk of counterattack or would they tear apart the fabric of reality as LTT feared?

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

4 hours ago, Elendir said:

Would be DO unable to retaliate

The DO did not retaliate - the taint was an inescapable consequence of sealing the bore without control of the DO's own true power.  The references to "the dark ones counterstroke" are use of the unreliable narrator.   Using both halves would have tainted both halves.

[Sabio]

19 hours ago, Elendir said:

I see breaking of world as fault of poor communication. Both male and female sedai had their insane plane and couldn't agree which of them carry out.

 

We have no reliable information about any what if.

What if female sedai went with Dragon. Would be DO unable to retaliate or both half of one power would end corrupted?

If Choedan Kal (female plane) was used, would they defeat DO without risk of counterattack or would they tear apart the fabric of reality as LTT feared?

I believe RJ did say both male and female halves would have been corrupted had they both tried.  Which pretty much would have doomed the world.  

[Stedding Tofu]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:32 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The DO did not retaliate - the taint was an inescapable consequence of sealing the bore without control of the DO's own true power.  The references to "the dark ones counterstroke" are use of the unreliable narrator.   Using both halves would have tainted both halves.

 

What would be interesting to know is when callan'dor was made and why.  We see it in Rand's ancestor vision in Paaran Disen so if it was available in The Age of Legends someone must have made it who understood The True Power and how to use it against The Dark One.  Unless of course it was seen as an even riskier strategy than Lews Therin's strike on Shayol Ghul so was simply mothballed like the Choedan Kal.

 

It's also interesting to conjecture that in future turnings The Second Age might successfully seal away The Dark One if men and women work out a plan together, leaving The Third Age an entirely different course.

[Sabio]

I never understood Callandor either.  Since only the DO can grant someone access to use it and it wasn't something the DO just allowed any person to use.  All the companion says is created during the War of Power , toward the end of the technological age.  A manufacturing flaw was discovered when it was used during the War of Power, it lacked a buffer, which made it possible to draw too much of the One Power while using the item.  

 

One thing I noticed the Companion left out is the part about the possibility a man (if not in a circle) could be forced into a link by women. It could simply be that when it was made it allowed all channeling so the One Power could be used and the people who made it never knew.  It certainly took Ishy by surprise.  My guesses are that like the Choden Kal, the forces of light had no access to Callandor anymore.  it could have been deemed too dangerous to use there.  Since there were no females present, whoever used it would be vulnerable to being controlled.  Or the female Aes Sedai hid it from LTT so he couldn't use it.

[Samt]

3 hours ago, Sabio said:

I never understood Callandor either.  Since only the DO can grant someone access to use it and it wasn't something the DO just allowed any person to use.  All the companion says is created during the War of Power , toward the end of the technological age.  A manufacturing flaw was discovered when it was used during the War of Power, it lacked a buffer, which made it possible to draw too much of the One Power while using the item.  

 

One thing I noticed the Companion left out is the part about the possibility a man (if not in a circle) could be forced into a link by women. It could simply be that when it was made it allowed all channeling so the One Power could be used and the people who made it never knew.  It certainly took Ishy by surprise.  My guesses are that like the Choden Kal, the forces of light had no access to Callandor anymore.  it could have been deemed too dangerous to use there.  Since there were no females present, whoever used it would be vulnerable to being controlled.  Or the female Aes Sedai hid it from LTT so he couldn't use it.

I had assumed Callandor was created sometime after the breaking by some group of Aes Sedai (probably both female and not yet insane male) who realized that they needed to make preparations for the future ages to correct that which had gone so horribly wrong.  They sealed it in Tear so that no crazy people could get it and that it would specifically be available to LTT reborn.  Obviously, this is just my theory, but to me it makes more sense than assuming that the thing that was specifically need to seal the DO was created accidentally without planning.  

 

I wasn't aware that Callandor specifically created a vulnerability where a lone male using it could be forced into a circle (is this confirmed anywhere?).  I had interpreted the possibility of losing control to be more generic where a man might draw too much of the one power and just literally do things that no one was controlling like Rand did in the battle against the Seanchan (it's not implied that someone had taken control in that instance, is it?).  It is stated that this vulnerability is overcome by a man using Callandor while linked to two women, which is presumably why (or at least one of the reasons why) Rand brought Moiraine and Nynaeve with him to Shayol Gul.  However, I believe that Cadsuane also specifies that one of the women must be leading the circle in order to overcome the vulnerability. Since Rand is leading the circle at Shayol Gul, I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean (maybe Rand could have lost contol at SG but just didn't).  

 

In regards to Callandor being a generic everything S'angreal, it is specifically Saidin and True Power only.  It doesn't channel Saidar and is of no particular use to a lone woman.  I believe Lanfear says something to this effect at the beginning of tSR.  

[Scarloc99]

The Aes Sedai knew about the true power, they had detected it and bored for it. So they at the very least understood its essence. I do wonder if work on Callandor was made during the silent war before the dark one revealed itself and the war proper started. Possibly by a black aes sedai working in secret, or the aes sedai investigating the bore following the explosion. 

[wotfan4472]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:51 AM, DojoToad said:

Can men form a circle of any size, or were they all on their own?

They were on their own.

There are circles that men can lead, but only women can initiate any circle option.

No women, no circles.

[Stedding Tofu]

@Samt @Sabio  It's pretty unclear to me.  Having checked The Companion all I can say for sure is 1) callandor is a male sa'angreal, 2) it was made during The War of Power, i.e. before the male Aes Sedai went mad, but 3) with a flaw that allowed too much of the One Power, i.e saidin, to be drawn in*, resulting in unpredictable or uncontrolled effects 4) unless the male Aes Sedai was in a circle with women who would provide the buffering.  *We see the consequences of a lack of buffering with Rand losing control of his lightning weaves against the seanchan but also with the use of the bowl of the winds affecting the one power in general around Ebou Dar.

 

It's not clear that one of the women needs to control the circle and I think Rand's reluctance to use callandor was simply distrust of any Aes Sedai, a trust finally overcome when he weathers his personality crisis but then only with Moiraine and Nynaeve available to link with.

 

It's not clear at all how it was made a true power sa'angreal or how Rand discovered this, something I found confusing, and doubly so as only The Dark One can grant someone access to it, nullifying its use against him, surely.  The only ways I see round that is if Rand's connection with Moridin allows him to connect to the True Power without The Dark One knowing (something I considered a possibility in his defeat of Semirhage but discounted, as The Dark One considering her dispensable felt more in keeping with the story); or that to deny Rand the True Power would also mean denying Moridin the True Power, a step The Dark One decided unnecessary; or that The Dark One was, like all The Forsaken, full of hubris and fully expected to defeat Rand anyway (despite his infinity of previous defeats 🤔).

 

Given the presence of Deindre, an Aes Sedai with the Foretelling talent, in Paaran Disen during the critical events and decisions made during the Breaking I took the decision to leave callandor warded and somewhere safe as stemming from her foretellings, similar to the need to preserve the Aiel for some purpose, to construct The Eye of The World and to leave the last of the Nym, the Green Man, to guard it along with The Horn of Valere.

 

How callandor can work as a True Power sa'angreal and who knew how to make it is either something completely lost in The Breaking or RJ didn't want to leave any clues for us to work out how Rand was going to defeat The Dark One.  It's all a bit obscure to me.

[Sabio]

It was Rand's connection to Moridin that allowed him to use the True Power. 

 

 

All I could really find about Callandor is after hearing of the fortellings of the Prophecy of the Dragon, the Aes Sedai of the time built the Stone of Tear to safeguard callandor. They used the One power to make powerful wards to prevent anyone but the true Dragon Reborn from touching it.  The wards were so effective that not even the Forsaken could circumvent them. Which does raise more questions on how these wards would allow Rand to get the sword and no one else.

[Samt]

4 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

@Samt @Sabio  It's pretty unclear to me.  Having checked The Companion all I can say for sure is 1) callandor is a male sa'angreal, 2) it was made during The War of Power, i.e. before the male Aes Sedai went mad, but 3) with a flaw that allowed too much of the One Power, i.e saidin, to be drawn in*, resulting in unpredictable or uncontrolled effects 4) unless the male Aes Sedai was in a circle with women who would provide the buffering.  *We see the consequences of a lack of buffering with Rand losing control of his lightning weaves against the seanchan but also with the use of the bowl of the winds affecting the one power in general around Ebou Dar.

 

It's not clear that one of the women needs to control the circle and I think Rand's reluctance to use callandor was simply distrust of any Aes Sedai, a trust finally overcome when he weathers his personality crisis but then only with Moiraine and Nynaeve available to link with.

 

It's not clear at all how it was made a true power sa'angreal or how Rand discovered this, something I found confusing, and doubly so as only The Dark One can grant someone access to it, nullifying its use against him, surely.  The only ways I see round that is if Rand's connection with Moridin allows him to connect to the True Power without The Dark One knowing (something I considered a possibility in his defeat of Semirhage but discounted, as The Dark One considering her dispensable felt more in keeping with the story); or that to deny Rand the True Power would also mean denying Moridin the True Power, a step The Dark One decided unnecessary; or that The Dark One was, like all The Forsaken, full of hubris and fully expected to defeat Rand anyway (despite his infinity of previous defeats 🤔).

 

Given the presence of Deindre, an Aes Sedai with the Foretelling talent, in Paaran Disen during the critical events and decisions made during the Breaking I took the decision to leave callandor warded and somewhere safe as stemming from her foretellings, similar to the need to preserve the Aiel for some purpose, to construct The Eye of The World and to leave the last of the Nym, the Green Man, to guard it along with The Horn of Valere.

 

How callandor can work as a True Power sa'angreal and who knew how to make it is either something completely lost in The Breaking or RJ didn't want to leave any clues for us to work out how Rand was going to defeat The Dark One.  It's all a bit obscure to me.

I re-read chapter 47 of AMoL and it does say that Callandor was specifically a trap that allowed an unlinked man to be controlled by a woman.  I had misinterpreted that section before as Rand simply being insecure about being in a circle that a woman controlled, but it is actually quite explicit.  Min discovered that Callandor can be used to control a man as a sort of trap and told Rand (We are not told exactly when this happened. Rand just recalls it from his POV at Shayol Gul).  This is how Elan/Morridin is controlled.  And although Rand can channel the true power due to his connection with Morridin, the book says that Rand is channeling Saidin.  It is actually Morridin who is channeling the TP.  So Rand is channeling Saidin, Nynaeve and Moiraine are channeling Saidar, and Morridin is channeling the TP.  Initially either Moiraine or Nynaeve is controlling the circle (it doesn't specify which, maybe Rand doesn't know) as they use it to force Morridin into the circle.  They then add Rand to the circle and pass control of it to him.  Rand uses the whole circle with all three types of channeling to bind the DO.  

 

In regards to the lack of a buffer on Callandor being overcome only when a woman is controlling the circle, I distinctly remember reading this.  I just don't remember at this point which book it would be in since this explanation doesn't correlat to any particular part of the story in my mind.  It definitely happens after the battle with the Seanchan and before Shayol Gul.  I can't remember if it is something that Min discovers or something that Cadsuane already knew and explained.  

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

I re-read chapter 47 of AMoL and it does say that Callandor was specifically a trap that allowed an unlinked man to be controlled by a woman.  I had misinterpreted that section before as Rand simply being insecure about being in a circle that a woman controlled, but it is actually quite explicit.  Min discovered that Callandor can be used to control a man as a sort of trap and told Rand (We are not told exactly when this happened. Rand just recalls it from his POV at Shayol Gul).  This is how Elan/Morridin is controlled.  And although Rand can channel the true power due to his connection with Morridin, the book says that Rand is channeling Saidin.  It is actually Morridin who is channeling the TP.  So Rand is channeling Saidin, Nynaeve and Moiraine are channeling Saidar, and Morridin is channeling the TP.  Initially either Moiraine or Nynaeve is controlling the circle (it doesn't specify which, maybe Rand doesn't know) as they use it to force Morridin into the circle.  They then add Rand to the circle and pass control of it to him.  Rand uses the whole circle with all three types of channeling to bind the DO.  

 

In regards to the lack of a buffer on Callandor being overcome only when a woman is controlling the circle, I distinctly remember reading this.  I just don't remember at this point which book it would be in since this explanation doesn't correlat to any particular part of the story in my mind.  It definitely happens after the battle with the Seanchan and before Shayol Gul.  I can't remember if it is something that Min discovers or something that Cadsuane already knew and explained.  

This “trap” aspect suggests that Callandor may have been created by the forces of the dark lord while pretending to be forces of the light. Maybe hoping to trap Lewis Therin with the sword, but then events overtook and that plan was long forgotten? 

[Stedding Tofu]

18 hours ago, Samt said:

I re-read chapter 47 of AMoL and it does say that Callandor was specifically a trap that allowed an unlinked man to be controlled by a woman.  I had misinterpreted that section before as Rand simply being insecure about being in a circle that a woman controlled, but it is actually quite explicit.  Min discovered that Callandor can be used to control a man as a sort of trap and told Rand (We are not told exactly when this happened. Rand just recalls it from his POV at Shayol Gul).  This is how Elan/Morridin is controlled.  And although Rand can channel the true power due to his connection with Morridin, the book says that Rand is channeling Saidin.  It is actually Morridin who is channeling the TP.  So Rand is channeling Saidin, Nynaeve and Moiraine are channeling Saidar, and Morridin is channeling the TP.  Initially either Moiraine or Nynaeve is controlling the circle (it doesn't specify which, maybe Rand doesn't know) as they use it to force Morridin into the circle.  They then add Rand to the circle and pass control of it to him.  Rand uses the whole circle with all three types of channeling to bind the DO.  

 

In regards to the lack of a buffer on Callandor being overcome only when a woman is controlling the circle, I distinctly remember reading this.  I just don't remember at this point which book it would be in since this explanation doesn't correlat to any particular part of the story in my mind.  It definitely happens after the battle with the Seanchan and before Shayol Gul.  I can't remember if it is something that Min discovers or something that Cadsuane already knew and explained.  

 

Thanks.  A good explanation of what the good guys did at Shayol Ghul and how.  Who made callandor and how they made a true power sa'angreal is still a mystery.  Given Ishamael/Moridin picks it up, allowing himself to be captured, it seems neither he, nor by extension The Dark One, can know the danger and that it was not The Shadow that made it.

 

That is was Min who stumbled on something in a book was one of the least satisfying or credible developments to me but it still leaves the question of whether this is a flaw in callandor's making (another flaw like the absence of buffering) or deliberate.  The requirement that a servant of The Dark One be forced into a circle by baiting them with a powerful sa'angreal and that only then could The Dark One be defeated seems a high risk, low probability scenario!  Then again, desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

But if Rand can touch the True Power through his connection to Moridin is callandor even necessary?  Did he kill Semirhage without The Dark One tempting him with it?

 

It's Cadsuane who tells him about the buffer as part of her contribution to Tarmon Gai'don of withholding critical information until Rand acts according to her "behavioural requirements" or gets smacked.