Rafe's answers to Dragonmount #rewotch questions

[expat]

I find these discussion fascinating. 

 

When reading the books, it's was very easy to get in the habit of letting plot points flow and not thinking too deeply about them.  Some of these discussions about the series and where it falls short encourages a deeper analysis to determine agreement/disagreement.  In many cases, the critics are right that the series makes little sense.  This leads to thinking about how the books did similar scenes, which often leads to discovering that the books make as little sense as the series (although sometimes in different ways).

 

In general, if the both the series and the books don't make much sense, I tend to be lenient with the series taking liberties with the source.  

[WhiteVeils]

12 hours ago, Mailman said:

The fact that the commander of the children of the light recommends an Aes Sedai healer totally undercuts the entire forest scene. How a non-book reader would understand that is beyond me.

 

It doesn't undercut it.  It introduces a very important concept: That the Whitecloaks are not a monolithic organization, nor are they an organization dedicated only to defeating/killing Aes Sedai.  In the Show Universe, at least, there are many Whitecloaks who absolutely just want to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can, but there are also another significant faction of the Whitecloaks that aren't there to defeat Aes Sedai, but genuinely are out there to fight Darkfriends, or at least accomplish a political gain.

In the books, Jordan accomplishes this through an extended set of interactions between Bornhold and Perrin.

In the show, they accomplish that with just one line.

[Skipp]

13 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

It doesn't undercut it.  It introduces a very important concept: That the Whitecloaks are not a monolithic organization, nor are they an organization dedicated only to defeating/killing Aes Sedai.  In the Show Universe, at least, there are many Whitecloaks who absolutely just want to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can, but there are also another significant faction of the Whitecloaks that aren't there to defeat Aes Sedai, but genuinely are out there to fight Darkfriends, or at least accomplish a political gain.

In the books, Jordan accomplishes this through an extended set of interactions between Bornhold and Perrin.

In the show, they accomplish that with just one line.

 

Agreed that the scene in question is wearing many hats.  As you said it shows that the Aes Sedai burning Valda is is a Zealot even by Whitecloak standards.  It also introduces the concept of Questioners even if it doesn't get into details.  I hope all of these dynamics are explored more in season 2

 

It also highlights that

• Aes Sedai can make the truth dance to their wit.
• Moraine is still injured
• That there are other things aside from Trollocs that the Two Rivers folk need to be aware of. 

All the while allowing for a bridge for Perrins/Egwenes story line in episode 5.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

It doesn't undercut it.  It introduces a very important concept: That the Whitecloaks are not a monolithic organization, nor are they an organization dedicated only to defeating/killing Aes Sedai.  In the Show Universe, at least, there are many Whitecloaks who absolutely just want to kill as many Aes Sedai as they can, but there are also another significant faction of the Whitecloaks that aren't there to defeat Aes Sedai, but genuinely are out there to fight Darkfriends, or at least accomplish a political gain.

In the books, Jordan accomplishes this through an extended set of interactions between Bornhold and Perrin.

In the show, they accomplish that with just one line.

Agreed.  That one line showed that the organization was not monolithic - as you said.  But a bit of tension between Valda and the commander would have helped as well.  The line from the commander and a annoyed look from Valda in reaction would have pushed the point home - IMO.

[Scarloc99]

On 11/22/2022 at 9:40 PM, expat said:

Someone that thinks the training scenes are so critical to the story that leaving them out/postponing to season 2 is anathema, please explain their logic within the story.  We leave our intrepid heroes escaping from Terren Ferry with large numbers of Shadowspawn on their trail, although temporarily safe.  The Shadowspawn known the general direction that our heroes are traveling, so know where to look to try to pick-up the trail again.

 

In order for the training scenes to make sense, Moiraine and Lan must believe that they are totally safe and are traveling at a reasonably slow pace, camping with hours of daylight still available.  We know this because training requires time, light, and energy.  If they are trying to avoid capture/detection, our heroes have none of these three things because they are traveling as late into the night as is safe for the horses.  I'm not a weapon master, but I doubt that you do successful beginning training in the dark with exhausted pupils.

 

What is more logical, that Moiraine and Lan are so confident after escaping that they allow a leisurely journey or that they take steps to avoid their trail being picked-up by Shadowspawn that preclude weapon training?

 

This question may have a different answer in a TV series and in the books.  The TV series structure requires rising and falling tension within episodes while the books allow longer tension building.

 

 

 

 

Exactly, in the book the Journey from Emonds field, while tense, is much slower and measured. There is no "army or trollocs" pouring from the mountains on there tail. In fact, for what feels like several weeks (I forget the real timeline) the party make an almost relaxed journey. As you point out camp is made while there is still daylight and Lan therefore has time and space to train them. 

later as the escape becomes more desperate that training stops, the party ride hard and fast ending up in SL when there is no where else to go. 

Rafe decided to skip that opening more languid ride (which would have eaten up at least half an episode) to get them to where they needed to be (SL) as quickly as possible. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/22/2022 at 8:26 PM, WheelofJuke said:

No Eye of the Tiger training montage with Lan and The Boys is #1 reason I won't be back for Season 2. 

 

Well, really it's because they totally butchered the source material, but I'd like to think it's the reason.🙃

I mean for me, having read the books multiple times, it is such a minor moment that I hadn't even considered it being important in season 1 (and I still don't). I have always been looking forward far far more to Lan Rand training after book 1, when Rand is truly learning how to fight with a sword and Lan teaches him to Sheath the Sword, and, more then that, training with Rhurac and Lan in the 3 fold land. Learning the Sword with Lan, then the Spears with Rhurac and then hand to hand fighting with both (I really want a scene where he manages to hold them both off as they try and fight him together. 

For Mat, the fight with Galad and Gawyn is the one I have always looked forward to, far far better then some farmboys learning the rudiments of fighting with a sword. I mean, to show it properly that opening book one fight montage should involve the dropping of the sword/axe, slipping on there own feet, being put on their backs by lan. I never pictured it as a heroic moment, I pictured it as what it was, 3 boys who had never fought like that before falling over themselves and looking stupid for day after day. I never wanted TV time wasted on the kind of montages I have seen over and over on TV. 

No give me a montage of an already competent Rand fighting with the spears, the Aiel standing around watching, more and more every day, small wagers being made with the betting slowly shifting to being placed on Rand to win. That is the scenes I want. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Scarloc99]

On 11/22/2022 at 10:24 PM, ForsakenPotato said:

Wasn't the biggest training period with Lan and Rand in Fal Dara at the start of book 2 anyway, or am I misremembering a lot of training in book 1? Doesn't it just need to happen before Turok?

Yes, I always saw those book 1 moments as the clumsy first attempts to pickup a sword. Book 2 opens with Rand and Lan training hard with the suggestion Lan has been teaching Rand far more then just sword fighting. That is the moment Lan becomes a second father figure to Rand, teaching him not just how to fight, but how to stand before the Amirylian Seat, that is also the moment Lan teaches Rand how to sheath the sword, a key lesson that resonates right the way through the series. I always saw that Sheathing the Sword lesson as not just foreshadowing the sword fight at the end of book 2, but also giving up control at the last battle, he allowed Moridin to take control so then the women could make their own thrust. 

[Scarloc99]

On 11/23/2022 at 4:23 PM, expat said:

I asked you once already and you ducked the question.  How do you change episode 2 to accommodate an extra 10 minutes of new material?  You don't have the option of making it a 70 minute episode while reducing episode 5 to 50 minutes.  The only way to do it is to restructure episode 2 by cutting/shortening/moving existing material.  Existing material includes SL, dream scene, Manetheren explanation, Rand getting mad at Moiraine, Moiraine starting to teach Egwene, sinking the ferry, Valda meeting setting up Perrin and Egwene capture, and being chased/escaping from Shadowspawn.

 

Let's take these individually:

 

SL - ends the episode on a cliffhanger, so moving it to the beginning of episode 3 doesn't work well within the confines of TV story telling.  Critical to the overall story.  Already seems rushed, so shortening not an appealing choice.

 

Manetheren explanation - Possible, but it is an important lore component to our hero's backstory.  Has to be in this episode because it requires all our heroes to be together.  It is about a 4 minute scene, so it doesn't generate the necessary 10 minutes by itself.

 

Dream scene - critical story element.  Has to be in this episode because it requires all our heroes to be together.  It is about a 5 minute scene, so it doesn't generate the necessary 10 minutes by itself.

 

Rand showing distrust of Moiraine - possible.  It shows the stress the EF5 are under and communicates the overall distrust of Aes Sedai in the world, so it provides important world/character building information.  Since Rand is the dragon, foreshadows his distrust.  Might be able to be moved to later when Rand/Mat are found by Moiraine.  It is a short scene, so it doesn't generate the necessary 10 minutes by itself. 

 

Moiraine starting to teach Egwene about the one power - critical world building because she is teaching the audience about the one power. Has to be done in episode 2 because Egwene uses the one power against the Whitecloaks prior to seeing Moiraine again.  Another short scene which doesn't provide the necessary 10 minutes.

 

Sinking the ferry - must be done in episode 2.  Climax to the immediate threat of trollocs.  While the specific scene might be cuttable, something is needed to resolve the immediate trolloc threat in a TV friendly way.  Another short scene which doesn't provide the necessary 10 minutes.

 

Valda meeting - possible.  You could use the book encounter for Perrin's and Egwene's capture which allows this to be moved to a later episode.  Problems with that is the character introduction of Valda as a big baddie is reduced, you lose character development of the Tinkers and Whitecloaks, and you need to spend more time on the Wolf Brother aspect, but doable.  This is a reasonably long scene, so moving it gets you a long way to your needed 10 minutes.

 

Escaping/being chased by Shadowspawn - This is the tension of the episode.  You can play around with the specifics; you need our heroes to be under threat.

The ferry also does a key important thing, it helps reinforce the 3 laws. Morraine can't kill the ferrymen, but she can get Lan to, or she can create a whirlpool and if the men drown in it that is their decision. 

The distrust of Morraine is a key story thread right the way through to when Morraine becomes submissive to Rand in the journey from the 3 fold land. 

The Valda meeting is again used to help highlight the 3 laws, this time about the ability to tell the truth while not giving all away. It also highlights the danger of Whitecloaks to Aes Sedai, even those in training. 

I completely agree with you adding in the training montage means you either spread those first 2 episodes over 3, or you compress them down even more. It is clear (and I think the right decision) that Rafe made a decision that he wanted to get the boys to SL in 2 episodes because that is really where the story proper starts, it is also where the story starts to break from the fellowship of the ring a bit more. 

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Rafe decided to skip that opening more languid ride (which would have eaten up at least half an episode) to get them to where they needed to be (SL) as quickly as possible. 

Yes he did.  He chose and we will see where that leads.

 

So now Rand's first experience with the sword comes much later - and he still has to fight the blade master in pretty short order.  Or maybe Lan takes care of that for him.  Or the teaser did show Nynaeve getting some sword training.  Whew!  Rand will be protected...

[holger]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes he did.  He chose and we will see where that leads.

 

So now Rand's first experience with the sword comes much later - and he still has to fight the blade master in pretty short order.  Or maybe Lan takes care of that for him.  Or the teaser did show Nynaeve getting some sword training.  Whew!  Rand will be protected...

To be fair, in the books Lan does not know that Rand is the DR until the end of book 1, so all of the training Lan gives the boys earlier is just basic weapon-based self defense and pretty much irrelevant for becoming a blademaster. The real training sword training of Rand happens in the few months in Fal Dara at the beginning of book 2.

 

Personally I am much more worried that THAT part of the books won't happen in the show, since Fal Dara will likely not be picked up again, because in a TV show it is simply not realistic to have several months of wrap-up for the previous season at the beginning of a new season, since each season needs to start executing on its theme right away. Compared to that, the omission of training in S1 simply does not matter.

 

Rand will just have to be trained by Lan on-the-go, after reuniting with Moiraine. That will have to be enough.

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean for me, having read the books multiple times, it is such a minor moment that I hadn't even considered it being important in season 1 (and I still don't). I have always been looking forward far far more to Lan Rand training after book 1, when Rand is truly learning how to fight with a sword and Lan teaches him to Sheath the Sword, and, more then that, training with Rhurac and Lan in the 3 fold land. Learning the Sword with Lan, then the Spears with Rhurac and then hand to hand fighting with both (I really want a scene where he manages to hold them both off as they try and fight him together. 

For Mat, the fight with Galad and Gawyn is the one I have always looked forward to, far far better then some farmboys learning the rudiments of fighting with a sword. I mean, to show it properly that opening book one fight montage should involve the dropping of the sword/axe, slipping on there own feet, being put on their backs by lan. I never pictured it as a heroic moment, I pictured it as what it was, 3 boys who had never fought like that before falling over themselves and looking stupid for day after day. I never wanted TV time wasted on the kind of montages I have seen over and over on TV. 

No give me a montage of an already competent Rand fighting with the spears, the Aiel standing around watching, more and more every day, small wagers being made with the betting slowly shifting to being placed on Rand to win. That is the scenes I want. 

So from 0 to 100 in nothing flat?

 

I'd prefer the bumble-footed farm boys that progress 15 to 30 seconds at a time.  Mat already knows what he needs with the staff though I'm sure he could refine his technique (plus maybe picking up more tricks after visit with Aelfinn).  Someone mentioned Perrin might pick up an advantage from his wolf connection (instinct) - and his strength is already a plus once he learns how to control it.  Rand has the flame and the void, channeling, and perhaps Lews Therin's knowledge.  So all three could progress faster than expected but would all start with clumsiness.

 

Seems more realistic than moving from farmboy to Nynaeve ninja level 100 with no intervening steps.  But given what we saw from S1, you are probably correct - All the boys will be weapons masters without any training required.

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, holger said:

To be fair, in the books Lan does not know that Rand is the DR until the end of book 1, so all of the training Lan gives the boys earlier is just basic weapon-based self defense and pretty much irrelevant for becoming a blademaster.

That is incorrect.  Even a blade master learns basics.  That is how they keep from injuring/killing themselves and their training partners as they move on to more advanced techniques.

[holger]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

That is incorrect.  Even a blade master learns basics.  That is how they keep from injuring/killing themselves and their training partners as they move on to more advanced techniques.

Yes, of course, lol, that was not my point. The point is that from a narrative perspective basic self defense training does not contribute meaningfully to the story. Anyone can learn self defense, and from a non-book-readers perspective Rand might well already have learned that in the Two Rivers. What makes Rand special is that he becomes a blade master. THAT is what we need to see happen, and THAT only starts in book 2 / S2.

Edited November 25, 2022 by holger

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, holger said:

Yes, of course, lol, that was not my point. The point is that from a narrative perspective basic self defense training does not contribute meaningfully to the story. Anyone can learn self defense, and from a non-book-readers perspective Rand might well already have learned that in the Two Rivers. What makes Rand special is that he becomes a blade master. THAT is what we need to see happen, and THAT only starts in book 2 / S2.

We shall see.  I wouldn't be surprised if Rafe changes something here and Rand never becomes a blade master.

[holger]

6 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

We shall see.  I wouldn't be surprised if Rafe changes something here and Rand never becomes a blade master.

I don't think there is any doubt that he will become a blade master. If Rafe had wanted to change that then he would not have given Rand a Heron-marked sword, with hints at its significance (e.g. by Ishy commenting on it in E8).

 

I see two ways for them to play this: one is to get Rand close to blade master skills by the end of S2, like in the books. For that we would have to see at least three scenes with Lan and Rand training (1. beginning/setup, 2. making progress, 3. becoming very skilled), and a few dropped lines in Lan/Moiraine/Rand conversations about their ongoing training. Also, they would have to stretch that time to at least two months. THAT is where I am worried, because that long of a period of time would have to match the events in the main plot, and would also have to match the other characters' story arcs.

 

The other option is to get Rand only partially towards blade master skills in S2, and use different mechanics in the final S2 fights, e.g. concentrate more on the One Power for that, to make them believable. Rand would then probably have to pause his training during S3 (Aiel waste), and could continue the training once he is in Cairhien and Caemlyn, probably from someone other than Lan.

[DojoToad]

14 minutes ago, holger said:

I don't think there is any doubt that he will become a blade master. If Rafe had wanted to change that then he would not have given Rand a Heron-marked sword, with hints at its significance (e.g. by Ishy commenting on it in E8).

 

I see two ways for them to play this: one is to get Rand close to blade master skills by the end of S2, like in the books. For that we would have to see at least three scenes with Lan and Rand training (1. beginning/setup, 2. making progress, 3. becoming very skilled), and a few dropped lines in Lan/Moiraine/Rand conversations about their ongoing training. Also, they would have to stretch that time to at least two months. THAT is where I am worried, because that long of a period of time would have to match the events in the main plot, and would also have to match the other characters' story arcs.

 

The other option is to get Rand only partially towards blade master skills in S2, and use different mechanics in the final S2 fights, e.g. concentrate more on the One Power for that, to make them believable. Rand would then probably have to pause his training during S3 (Aiel waste), and could continue the training once he is in Cairhien and Caemlyn, probably from someone other than Lan.

Or there could have been one training scene in S1 and they would be a step ahead.

 

They certainly had time with Mat not needing any scenes in the last two episodes...

Edited November 25, 2022 by DojoToad

[SinisterDeath]

What did the last page have to do with Rafe's answers to the #rewotch questions?

 

Nothing. So let's get back in topic and take the show hating else where. 

 

 

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

Have to agree to disagree then because episode 8 had many great moments.

 

Online fandoms are not always the representation of the entire fandom.  Also people tend to voice their complaints louder than their enjoyment, the 3 vs 33 rule and all.

Agree - people voice complaints way faster than compliments.

 

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

And what under performance?  The show being one of Amazon's most watched series of all time?  The show making it back into Amazons top 10 during Rings of Powers season?  Or the fact that many nonbook readers really seem to like the show?

Both objective and subjective reasons to dislike the show.  And the same for liking it.

 

4 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

The season was by no means perfect and I understand I love it more than reasonable by that standard. But I am also a person to tends to enjoy things I enjoy and leave the things I don't.  Knowing all of that the show is not the travesty some people make it out to be.

 

Season 2 will really be the test of R2J2 and the rest of the crew but I wouldn't expect it to change everyone's minds.

Still hoping S2 is an improvement.  Then I can live with the less than stellar S1.  Not an RJ2 fan yet, but I can get past it if he brings the goods in S2.  I was able to get past the first several episodes for S1 of 'The Office' which I didn't like on first blush and can also appreciate the weaker seasons at the end after Steve Carell left.  There is hope for me.  Weak, but it is there...

[Scarloc99]

On 11/26/2022 at 1:56 AM, DojoToad said:

Agree - people voice complaints way faster than compliments.

 

Both objective and subjective reasons to dislike the show.  And the same for liking it.

 

Still hoping S2 is an improvement.  Then I can live with the less than stellar S1.  Not an RJ2 fan yet, but I can get past it if he brings the goods in S2.  I was able to get past the first several episodes for S1 of 'The Office' which I didn't like on first blush and can also appreciate the weaker seasons at the end after Steve Carell left.  There is hope for me.  Weak, but it is there...

For a second there I thought you where saying the first few episodes of the UK Office where bad lol. I always forget you had your own version in the US, never got round to watching it. 

[DojoToad]

50 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

For a second there I thought you where saying the first few episodes of the UK Office where bad lol. I always forget you had your own version in the US, never got round to watching it. 

I never saw the UK version.  US version started slow but was great - IMO.  But as always, individual viewers may experience different results...

[nsmallw]

On 11/25/2022 at 8:45 PM, SinisterDeath said:

What did the last page have to do with Rafe's answers to the #rewotch questions?

 

Nothing. So let's get back in topic and take the show hating else where. 

 

 

 

Hey SD,

Has Rafe answered additional questions beyond the four mentioned on page 1 because I can't find anymore of his answers. Thanks for your help clarifying this for me. 

[WhiteVeils]

Another one:

[WhiteVeils]

[WhiteVeils]

[WhiteVeils]