Moridin? Shaidar Haran?

[Shai-tan]

Hmm could Aes Sedai still make ter-angreal then though? Could moridin given it to her?

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Aes Sedai in Rand-land couldn't. We don't know much about the Aes Sedai in Seanchan other than that they predated Luthair's arrival and fought him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Stone of Tear and Callandor were both made after the Breaking of the World. The Wards and Traps on Callandor were made with both saidin and saidar.

 

Knowledge from the Age of Legends persisted for a long time after the War of Power. Cooperation between male and female Aes Sedai persisted for a long time.

[Jedimuppet]

The Stone of Tear and Callandor were both made after the Breaking of the World. The Wards and Traps on Callandor were made with both saidin and saidar.

 

Knowledge from the Age of Legends persisted for a long time after the War of Power. Cooperation between male and female Aes Sedai persisted for a long time.

 

Until the females realized the males were going insane and destroying things...I didn't think that took too terribly long.

 

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Breaking itself took somewhere from 239 to 344 years [bWB, p 84]. The Stone of Tear and Callandor weren't created until after that had ended.

[Jellybelly]

No, Bob. Callandor was created in the Age of Legends. Reread Rand's trip to Rhuidean. And cooperation between men and women basically stopped when they realized the men were going insane, which would not take more than maximum a year after the Sealing, I should think. There were of course special cases, such as the creation of the Eye.

 

And Siswai. Dude, you have really got to read the books again. Some points here:

Messana/Lannfear/Cynade revealed the dark one, not the Betrayer of hope

Wrong. Mesaana was not a member of the research team that drilled the hole in the Dark One's prison. Lanfear was, but she did not reveal the Dark One to anyone. She served him silently in the beginning. When the Bore was drilled, society saw a collapse, and increase in violence, social problems etc. People did not know why this happened, but it was caused by the influence of Shai'tan. As the Collapse occurred, no one knew of the Dark One. Ishamael revealed to them what was going on, thus also revealing the Dark One to the world.

 

the Jak'o'shadows is the DO, not SH.

Nope. Jak o' the Shadows is a nickname for death.

 

but JellyBelly, how did the DO help him in TDR?

When Rand is about to kill him, he calls out "aid me!" and the darkness surrounding him coalesces into a solid ball of shadow. Which Rand summarily destroys.

 

JediMuppet, he hasn't been free the longest, Balthamel and Aginor were the first to get out, or the "nearest to the surface".

Oh yes he was the first freed. In fact, he was never more than partially trapped. He visited Lews Therin after the sealing, which is certainly indicative to anyone other than a complete loco. As well, we know that he was spun out for a 40 year period at three points in time. He started the Trolloc wars under the name Ba'alzamon, and he served as Hawkwing's advisor a thousand years later, sending out the Seanchan expedition and causing the war against the Aes Sedai. And he was finally released twenty years prior to TWotW.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Exactly when Callandor was created is murky. What the BWB has to say is:

...Callandor is believed to have been constructed during the War of Power... Perhaps aware of the dangers inherent in such a weapon, its makers placed the sword within the Stone of Tear and specially shielded it sometime during the Breaking, probably in an attempt to protect it from maddened male Aes Sedai.

 

About Tear, the BWB says:

The Stone is believed to be the oldest stronghold of mankind. It was built sometime during or shortly after the Breaking of the World, and was made using the One Power.

 

I assume you're referring to Jonai's POV. From that, it certainly seems that Callandor existed as of the date they abanonded Paran Disen.

[Siswaiaman]

Ad Jelly-

 

when i said messana, i had meant Mierin*, Lannfear's old name. She had freed him.

 

I admit my gnorance to the others, cept the DO helping Ishmael. I have some doubts of his ability to do so at that point.

 

TWotW? And where does it note his early realease?

 

 

p.s. thnx alcal

[alCal]

Lanfear's name was Mierin Eronaile 8)

[Jellybelly]

I meant to say TEotW, of course. I am sitting on a laptop, and am not quite used to the keyboard.

 

Mierin or Mesaaa notwithstanding, Mierin was not the one who revealed the existence of the Dark One to the world. She might have had some clue as to what this source of power she had located really was (as RJ has more than strongly implied) and she probably knew a short time after opening the Bore, but she never revealed his existence to the world as such. Ishamael did. Case settled, ok? :P

 

As for evidence for Ishamael resurfacing numerous times, they are spread all over the books. The one which is most glaring: Ishamael visiting Lews Therin after the sealing. Should indicate that he does not follow the same rules as the other Forsaken in things related to the sealing, right? There is also a mention of in Rand's trip to Rhuidean about an Aes Sedai who talked to the Ogier about sightings of Ishamael after the Strike. Then you have the whole Ba'alzamon starting the Trolloc wars and doing his business with Hawkwing, which I am sure you haven't forgotten. Plenty of early releases here.

 

I guess you meant his final release when you asked, though. The strongest evidence of this (that I have found) is in the prologue of ACoS when Alviarin reflects on the fact that Ishamael made her head of the Black Ajah years ago, after killing Jarna Malari for her orders to the BA of killing the Dragon Reborn. Alviarin became head of the Black around 980. TEotW starts in 998.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Heres a theory I have been nursing for a while.

 

It has been said (by one female forsaken or another) that Ishamael, while posing as Ba'alzamon in the early books, really thought he was the Dark One. This would undoubtedly be a side effect of using True Power too much. After Isgamael was reincarnated as Moridin maybe he created the image of a Superfade with the True Power, and now the insanity is returning and he is beginning to think he really is a Myrrdraal when he uses the disguise. This would explain why Shaidar and Moridin have never been seen together even though theyve been at the same place at once.

 

Fair enough its a wild theory but everything somebody says against it never knocks it off properly. If the theory isnt true then there is definitely a link between the two I am sure of it

[cannon]

I think the idea that Shaidar Haran is Moridin is just looney. No, we haven't seen them together yet, but so what? It's not like we're talking about Superman/Clark Kent here. Moridin doesn't say "Oh, let me go get SH for you" and then SH comes back without Moridin.

 

Just because we haven't seen them together doesn't mean it's a clue. There's no reason for them to both be at the same place. With Moridin as Naeblis he is essentially working under the direct will of the DO. Why would the DO need both of his puppets in the same place? It makes more sense to have them accomplishing separate things at the same time.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

I get what you mean the thing that really made me think this is when Shaidar sheds his armor and it doesnt disappear when it hits the floor (which it should do for a myrdraal aparantly). Personally id hate them to be the same because Moridin and Shaidar are both cool villains. I cant wait for Rand to fight Moridin.

 

P.S. Lews Therin knows who Moridin is. We all know its Moridins face Rand sees when he channels, and the first time he saw the face without the dizzyness Lews Therin said something about him "following their so called True Power now." So Lews Therin can tell Moridin is Ishamael the same way the Forsaken can tell Rand is Lews Therin

[Dionysus]

Wasn't one of S'H previous incarnations before Moridin though? Robert Jordan confirmed that it took the Dark One a couple tries to create Shaidar into what he is right now... All those Myrddraal that smile and such pre-SH were "beta" versions of S'H.

[Luckers]

I get what you mean the thing that really made me think this is when Shaidar sheds his armor and it doesnt disappear when it hits the floor (which it should do for a myrdraal aparantly). Personally id hate them to be the same because Moridin and Shaidar are both cool villains. I cant wait for Rand to fight Moridin.

 

Where does it say Myrrdraal armour dissapears when it hits the floor?

 

P.S. Lews Therin knows who Moridin is. We all know its Moridins face Rand sees when he channels, and the first time he saw the face without the dizzyness Lews Therin said something about him "following their so called True Power now." So Lews Therin can tell Moridin is Ishamael the same way the Forsaken can tell Rand is Lews Therin

 

Actually Rand said that he must have been using their so-called True Power since he didn't sense anything. And Rand makes the connection with the mind in his head and the man from Shadar Logoth. No connection is made between Ishamael and Moridin, and LTT would have no way of knowing that Moridin is the only one allowed to touch the True Power. In his time 39 people could use it.

 

No, Bob. Callandor was created in the Age of Legends. Reread Rand's trip to Rhuidean. And cooperation between men and women basically stopped when they realized the men were going insane, which would not take more than maximum a year after the Sealing, I should think. There were of course special cases, such as the creation of the Eye.

 

Actually the books indicate that for up to 300 years after the breaking Aes Sedai continued to work with, and try to heal men who could channel. It is only after that that they gave up. I believe Elayne tells Egwene this in the second book.

 

TWotW? And where does it note his early realease?

 

There are numerous references in the books to this, and RJ has told us that his ability to escape his prison worked on 40 year cycles.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Lews Therin says to Rand "he uses their so called True Power now" read it again if you dont believe it. I am right

[Luckers]

Lol dude... i do this thing where i always check before i write. But since im not overly given to grandiose statements, ill actually post the quote.

 

He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd either.

 

Indeed, the only thing in the entire passage that Lews Therin says about Moridin is that he was aware of him. I'm guessing your mistake came from the fact that its in italics. Mind your manners next time.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

that was at shadar logoth i wasnt mentioning that i was mentioning that after the balefire incident and after Rand starts seeing Moridins face when channeling, the first time he sees it clearly and without the dizzyness Lews Therin says "He follows their so-called Ture Power" i'll try n get a page number

[Luckers]

Nope, it was in KoD, at the manor house in Tear just before the Trollocs attacked. He never made the connection in Shadar Logoth.

 

Also, sorry, i realized i wrote 'balefire' in that quote instead of True Power. The quote was True Power, i'll edit it.

[seoman]

my view is that moridin-ishamael is nae´blis, a title which only can be given by the darkone himself; i can´t recall the moment but all the forsaken accepted the title with no hesitation.

shaidar haran is the hand of the darkone, a myrdral able to use the true power, from the greatlord, and as someone mentioned before SH is literally the hand of shaitan, is the reincarnation of the partial touch of the darkone through the bore(located in shayol ghul, annd it seems SH can´t be much time far from it)...

[Graendal probably did it]

The reason Ishamael/Moridin was probably made N'aeblis was because of his interactions with Artur Hawking and his consequent meddling with the Seanchan. In one of the books, he aluded to being Hawking's advisor, and almost turning him insane/making his lietenants turn in on each other. His actions were responsible for Hawkings downfall and the hundred years war. All this lead to half his descendents going to the other side of the Aryth ocean, in fact Ishamael got Hawking to tell them to go.

 

He then later meddled with the Seanchan prophecies of the return and created an invasion force to take on the mainland, which happend to coincide with the turning of the the third to fourth age. He might have been a mad fella, but he's certainly done quite a bit to help the Dark One out. With the iminent arrival of Tarmon Gaidon, he's put a lot of forethought into it.

 

Spoiler book 11

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Obviously Semirhage has helped out a bit, with the assasination of the Imperial royal family...

[Luckers]

Actually evidence seems to show that Ishamael was Nae'blis before the Breaking... at the very least he was the Dark One commander--the title may not have been formally known, yet Ishamael certainly controlled the Forsaken, forced them to work together... and pretty much on whole did what he is doing now.

[dimmu666]

haven't read the whole thread so if this idea has been said pls forgive me. Isn't it true that Ishy wasn't completely obeying the DO? remember how he believed that Rand could be somehow turned to the darkside so he didn't want to kill him outright? I've read somewhere that he was the mysterious person who saved Rand in Shadar Logoth when he was killing Sammael.

I suspect that wouldn't have been exactly 'identifying with the DO' cos i mean saving the guy thats destined to beat him isn't really forsaken work is it?

 

pls correct me if i'm wrong

[Dionysus]

The Dark Ones ultimate victory isn't just to kill the dragon reborn. There are differing degrees to victory.

 

If the DO kills the DR, then in the next age the wheel will probably just spin out another DR and there will be another war and so on and so forth. There will just be a dark age.

 

If the DO turns the DR then I have a feeling that the wheel will be unable to spin out another Dragon Reborn as the original one will still be alive with the immortality granted by the DO. I don't believe this will break the wheel though as many do. I think the wheel will be able to correct even that, perhaps by spinning out the majority of the Heroes of the Horn and a lot of extra Ta'veren. Perhaps this is what Hawkwing was talking about when saying he has fought against DR many times, not just when the shadow gained control of the Horn but also when the shadow gained control of the DR.

 

The ultimate end which could destroy the wheel I believe is the merging of the light and the dark somehow with Moridin's/Rand's link through the Balefire.

[Lord of Cleveland]

That is a very good view. I totally forgot about Hawkwings talk with Rand.