Has Rings of Power proven that Fantasy Adaptations are really hard?

[Skipp]

17 hours ago, Mailman said:

 

One big issue for me in cutting these locations and moving Camelyn to Tar Valon is that it makes the world feel very small. The Two Rivers are supposed to be the arse end of nowhere yet just over one months' worth of travel on foot takes you all the way through and past the capitol of Andor and to another massive city in Tar Valon.

 

If you had a good horse that probably means 2 or 3 weeks to get there hardly feels like a massive world. And hardly makes the Two Rivers an isolated backwater village.

While the Two rivers is quite a distance from any major cities it is actually quite close to Baerlon. A fair  sized town that has it's own Militia and has enough visitors that Whitecloaks don't seem out of place.

 

What made the Two Rivers an isolated backwater village was not it's distance from civilization as much as it's geographical features.  There is only a single major way in or out of the territory which makes it so the only people to travel there are those who have a reason(Peddlers, Snooping Aes Sedai). With no easy way to cross through the country side they remain isolated.

[DigificWriter]

A city or town can be considered to be isolated and/or rural regardless of its proximity to any larger cities or towns because isolation/rurality is about lifestyle, not distance.

 

Case in point: West Point, Utah, the city where I spent most of my childhood. Despite being only 10 minutes away from Roy, 15 minutes away from Ogden, and 5-6 minutes away from Clearfield and Syracuse, West Point was very isolated and rural when I was a child.

[Pandemonium]

Maybe Chatgpt AI can fix the difficulties in developing fantasy shows?  I'm seeing that much of the cgi and animation can be automated.  Heck they are even saying then AI can write the script.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/entertainment/chat-gpt-proves-ai-could-140000111.html

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

While the Two rivers is quite a distance from any major cities it is actually quite close to Baerlon. A fair  sized town that has it's own Militia and has enough visitors that Whitecloaks don't seem out of place.

 

What made the Two Rivers an isolated backwater village was not it's distance from civilization as much as it's geographical features.  There is only a single major way in or out of the territory which makes it so the only people to travel there are those who have a reason(Peddlers, Snooping Aes Sedai). With no easy way to cross through the country side they remain isolated.

However we then we see a raft of refugees make the journey over the mountains and from all over Randland to end up at Edmonds field. This always makes me wonder just how out of the way is it geographically vs not being of interest because they think nothing is there. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Guire]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

However we then we see a raft of refugees make the journey over the mountains and from all over Randland to end up at Edmonds field. This always makes me wonder just how out of the way is it geographically vs not being of interest because they think nothing is there. 

Book 2 rivers was geographically in a corner with no economic reason for outsiders in a retracting world to visit.  Off the main roads and out of mind.  Once the world starting erupting in invasive armies and shadow spawn, a quiet corner became worth checking out.  

 

One of my gripes with show was not using this same phenomenon to build a more believable world.  Have a portion of Emond Fielders be called away for Aiel War and it explains many of the two rivers chamges.  Cauthons, Al Veres, and a few other familes go to Tar Valon as part of Andor call up.  Brandelwyn and Abell are both severly injured in fighting.  Abell becomes alcoholic. EF all born in camps during Aiel War.  Nyn is orphaned when both her soldier parents are killed in raid. Old wisdom drags Nyn and group of refugees back to Two Rivers when they fear going back to old homes near Spine of World.

 

Now we have plausible reasons for racial diversity in isolated village,  All the EF 5 are more likely Dragon candidates and Taveren.  Aes Sedai possibly knowing about Taveren in EF more realistic.  Entire group of kids who meet prophecy reqs would eventually be investigated.  Old wisdom conflict with White Tower could be over her healing in camps vs shunned for being poor( stupid scene that undermines itself with Siuan story). Since they were going to make big changes I wished they had just went all in and least make them fit story better.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Guire said:

Book 2 rivers was geographically in a corner with no economic reason for outsiders in a retracting world to visit.  Off the main roads and out of mind.  Once the world starting erupting in invasive armies and shadow spawn, a quiet corner became worth checking out.  

 

One of my gripes with show was not using this same phenomenon to build a more believable world.  Have a portion of Emond Fielders be called away for Aiel War and it explains many of the two rivers chamges.  Cauthons, Al Veres, and a few other familes go to Tar Valon as part of Andor call up.  Brandelwyn and Abell are both severly injured in fighting.  Abell becomes alcoholic. EF all born in camps during Aiel War.  Nyn is orphaned when both her soldier parents are killed in raid. Old wisdom drags Nyn and group of refugees back to Two Rivers when they fear going back to old homes near Spine of World.

 

Now we have plausible reasons for racial diversity in isolated village,  All the EF 5 are more likely Dragon candidates and Taveren.  Aes Sedai possibly knowing about Taveren in EF more realistic.  Entire group of kids who meet prophecy reqs would eventually be investigated.  Old wisdom conflict with White Tower could be over her healing in camps vs shunned for being poor( stupid scene that undermines itself with Siuan story). Since they were going to make big changes I wished they had just went all in and least make them fit story better.

But then Rafe would have to cut the Steppin arc...

Edited January 23, 2023 by DojoToad

[Guire]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

But then Rafe would have to cut the Steppin arc...

This could all have been done in 2 minutes of exposition in 1st episode.  A bit less womens circle ceremony.  A conversation between Al Veres and Tam with Moraines arrival and how dangerous outside world plots can be for Two Rivers folk.  Amazon seemed more interested in checking boxes than getting us invested in characters.  I have figured out as a mysoginist, racist, retrograde male who does not use much social media my opinion is not very valued.  Which is fine.  There is enough stuff out there to meet my entertainment needs.  I have just started voting more with my pocket book.  I have greatly reduced my streaming providers and will be cutting amazon prime down to a few months a year to get the free shipping and play catch up on a few shows.  2 of my sons are playing FF14. Maybe a good ol mmo addiction isnt the worst thing these days.

[CaddySedai]

Exposition is such a sloppy way to cram information in. They should have simply launched Origins earlier than the show and had IT tell the appropriate backstories about the One Power, the world as it stands, and the appropriate familial backstories. 

 

Make Origins be a setup rather than a. addendum to the episodes. 

[Guire]

1 hour ago, CaddySedai said:

Exposition is such a sloppy way to cram information in. They should have simply launched Origins earlier than the show and had IT tell the appropriate backstories about the One Power, the world as it stands, and the appropriate familial backstories. 

 

Make Origins be a setup rather than a. addendum to the episodes. 

An entire season of shorts would have been amazing.  A few more age of legennds.  Fall of malkier.  So.e Aiel war.  Some shadow logoth set up.  Yep run new short a few times a week 2 months before show and got us frothing at the mouth.  Maybe even a mini game drop that intro some of the world we havent seen. Or false dragon mini game.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, CaddySedai said:

Exposition is such a sloppy way to cram information in. They should have simply launched Origins earlier than the show and had IT tell the appropriate backstories about the One Power, the world as it stands, and the appropriate familial backstories. 

 

Make Origins be a setup rather than a. addendum to the episodes. 

I want to watch a show - not have to do research to know what everything in the show means.  Is that usual now - watch the show and/or movie and then find the background/supplemental information?

 

For WoT, how much information is explained in Origins?  10 minutes, 2 hours, 10 hours?  I've already committed a bunch of time to the show, now I need to commit more just to figure out what it all means?

 

If you can't make a show/movie without requiring 'homework' maybe you bit off more than you can chew.  But then I don't watch a lot of TV, maybe things have changed...

[SinisterDeath]

59 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I want to watch a show - not have to do research to know what everything in the show means.  Is that usual now - watch the show and/or movie and then find the background/supplemental information?

 

For WoT, how much information is explained in Origins?  10 minutes, 2 hours, 10 hours?  I've already committed a bunch of time to the show, now I need to commit more just to figure out what it all means?

 

If you can't make a show/movie without requiring 'homework' maybe you bit off more than you can chew.  But then I don't watch a lot of TV, maybe things have changed...

Why on earth would you equate Origin shorts to Homework?

There are 6 shorts, for a total of 22 minutes of content, and they are worth a watch even if you, yourself can't even be bothered to finish the actual series.

[DaddyFinn]

3 hours ago, Guire said:

This could all have been done in 2 minutes of exposition in 1st episode. 

Show, don't tell. Nobody would remember anything of that several seasons later.

[DojoToad]

45 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Why on earth would you equate Origin shorts to Homework?

There are 6 shorts, for a total of 22 minutes of content, and they are worth a watch even if you, yourself can't even be bothered to finish the actual series.

Maybe there is a better comparison - just what popped into my head.

 

I already invested my time in a 'complete' show.  Now I need give more time (minimal but unexpected) to the homework, bait-and-switch, extra credit, treasure hunt, or whatever you want to call it just so the story they were attempting to tell makes sense.

 

Tell a complete story, don't make the watchers hunt for information critical to a basic understanding of the show.

 

As I said, I don't watch a lot of TV so I don't know if this kind of thing is normal.  I've never run into it before.  That's why I was asking questions as to if this is a usual thing.

[AdamA]

17 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Maybe there is a better comparison - just what popped into my head.

 

I already invested my time in a 'complete' show.  Now I need give more time (minimal but unexpected) to the homework, bait-and-switch, extra credit, treasure hunt, or whatever you want to call it just so the story they were attempting to tell makes sense.

 

Tell a complete story, don't make the watchers hunt for information critical to a basic understanding of the show.

 

As I said, I don't watch a lot of TV so I don't know if this kind of thing is normal.  I've never run into it before.  That's why I was asking questions as to if this is a usual thing.

Ironically, I think this kind of question is actually another point in favor of fantasy being hard to adapt. One thing these fantasy epics are known for is supplementary material. Simply reading the main books will get you most of the way there, but if you really want to understand everything, you need to also read the prequel, the cut chapters (at bare minimum, the one explaining what Demandred was up to), the appendices to the books themselves, usually something along the lines of an encyclopedia of the fictional world the author will release at some point. In Jordan's case, it helps tremendously that someone put material from his personal notes into a wiki. ASOIAF is probably much worse than this. George may have written more supplementary material at this point than mainline material.

 

In any case, though, the point of stuff like this would be expansion of the world. Done well, it should be inessential, but still add to a viewer's understanding and appreciation if they choose to watch it. In your case, given you've already read the books anyway, I doubt watching shorts that explain stuff from the books that didn't make it to the main show is absolutely necessary. You've already done a decade's worth of homework by reading the books.

 

Probably the Histories and Lore DVD extras for Game of Thrones are the best example of doing this pretty well. It was less than an hour per season, and nothing in there was needed to understand what was going on in the show. But it provided some additional context. It was also completely unnecessary if you'd read the books, as it's all pulled from there anyway.

 

Doing it poorly, at least in my opinion, is probably something like what the MCU is doing with all the Disney+ shows. It's impossible at this point to just watch the movies and understand what is happening, You'll miss too much if you don't also watch all the shows. And since they're not always very good, it is definitely starting to feel like homework and not an enjoyable viewing experience. Apparently, the new season of Mandalorian might be doing this. I guess Grogu decided not to become a Jedi and become a Mandalorian instead, so he's back, but that happened in Book of Boba Fett, which I didn't watch and don't intend to watch. That's a pretty shitty way of handling this kind of thing, making it so that a plot-changing important character moment happens in a completely different show. Having some optional extras that fill out the history but don't directly impact plot points during the main timeline of the show itself, is the right way to do it.

[DojoToad]

27 minutes ago, AdamA said:

Ironically, I think this kind of question is actually another point in favor of fantasy being hard to adapt. One thing these fantasy epics are known for is supplementary material. Simply reading the main books will get you most of the way there, but if you really want to understand everything, you need to also read the prequel, the cut chapters (at bare minimum, the one explaining what Demandred was up to), the appendices to the books themselves, usually something along the lines of an encyclopedia of the fictional world the author will release at some point. In Jordan's case, it helps tremendously that someone put material from his personal notes into a wiki. ASOIAF is probably much worse than this. George may have written more supplementary material at this point than mainline material.

 

In any case, though, the point of stuff like this would be expansion of the world. Done well, it should be inessential, but still add to a viewer's understanding and appreciation if they choose to watch it. In your case, given you've already read the books anyway, I doubt watching shorts that explain stuff from the books that didn't make it to the main show is absolutely necessary. You've already done a decade's worth of homework by reading the books.

 

Probably the Histories and Lore DVD extras for Game of Thrones are the best example of doing this pretty well. It was less than an hour per season, and nothing in there was needed to understand what was going on in the show. But it provided some additional context. It was also completely unnecessary if you'd read the books, as it's all pulled from there anyway.

 

Doing it poorly, at least in my opinion, is probably something like what the MCU is doing with all the Disney+ shows. It's impossible at this point to just watch the movies and understand what is happening, You'll miss too much if you don't also watch all the shows. And since they're not always very good, it is definitely starting to feel like homework and not an enjoyable viewing experience. Apparently, the new season of Mandalorian might be doing this. I guess Grogu decided not to become a Jedi and become a Mandalorian instead, so he's back, but that happened in Book of Boba Fett, which I didn't watch and don't intend to watch. That's a pretty shitty way of handling this kind of thing, making it so that a plot-changing important character moment happens in a completely different show. Having some optional extras that fill out the history but don't directly impact plot points during the main timeline of the show itself, is the right way to do it.

So this appears to be a trend for the movie/TV show arena.  That's sad...

[DigificWriter]

55 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Now I need give more time (minimal but unexpected) to the homework, bait-and-switch, extra credit, treasure hunt, or whatever you want to call it just so the story they were attempting to tell makes sense.

 

Tell a complete story, don't make the watchers hunt for information critical to a basic understanding of the show.

 

None of the Origins material is critical to enjoying or understanding the story the show itself is telling.

[DojoToad]

14 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

None of the Origins material is critical to enjoying or understanding the story the show itself is telling.

That wasn't my understanding from what I've read on this forum - especially in regards to AoL background.  If it is truly just bonus material, then we can take it or leave it.  I watched some of the bonus stuff for LotR.  Some was interesting, but I probably didn't see more than an hour.  It didn't add to the movies (for me) so I stopped.  Other folks probably watched the hell out of it...

[SinisterDeath]

11 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

That wasn't my understanding from what I've read on this forum - especially in regards to AoL background.  If it is truly just bonus material, then we can take it or leave it.  I watched some of the bonus stuff for LotR.  Some was interesting, but I probably didn't see more than an hour.  It didn't add to the movies (for me) so I stopped.  Other folks probably watched the hell out of it...

The Origins shorts are cannon to the tv show, and are book accurate.
They delve into the Ogier, the One Power (the two halves), the fall of Manetheren, The breaking, and even a certain tale about the greatest swordsman's sole defeat to a farmer with a stick.

Hate the show all you want, you'll love the shorts, and wish the series was animated.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

Ironically, I think this kind of question is actually another point in favor of fantasy being hard to adapt. One thing these fantasy epics are known for is supplementary material. Simply reading the main books will get you most of the way there, but if you really want to understand everything, you need to also read the prequel, the cut chapters (at bare minimum, the one explaining what Demandred was up to), the appendices to the books themselves, usually something along the lines of an encyclopedia of the fictional world the author will release at some point. In Jordan's case, it helps tremendously that someone put material from his personal notes into a wiki. ASOIAF is probably much worse than this. George may have written more supplementary material at this point than mainline material.

 

In any case, though, the point of stuff like this would be expansion of the world. Done well, it should be inessential, but still add to a viewer's understanding and appreciation if they choose to watch it. In your case, given you've already read the books anyway, I doubt watching shorts that explain stuff from the books that didn't make it to the main show is absolutely necessary. You've already done a decade's worth of homework by reading the books.

 

Probably the Histories and Lore DVD extras for Game of Thrones are the best example of doing this pretty well. It was less than an hour per season, and nothing in there was needed to understand what was going on in the show. But it provided some additional context. It was also completely unnecessary if you'd read the books, as it's all pulled from there anyway.

 

Doing it poorly, at least in my opinion, is probably something like what the MCU is doing with all the Disney+ shows. It's impossible at this point to just watch the movies and understand what is happening, You'll miss too much if you don't also watch all the shows. And since they're not always very good, it is definitely starting to feel like homework and not an enjoyable viewing experience. Apparently, the new season of Mandalorian might be doing this. I guess Grogu decided not to become a Jedi and become a Mandalorian instead, so he's back, but that happened in Book of Boba Fett, which I didn't watch and don't intend to watch. That's a pretty shitty way of handling this kind of thing, making it so that a plot-changing important character moment happens in a completely different show. Having some optional extras that fill out the history but don't directly impact plot points during the main timeline of the show itself, is the right way to do it.

You can probably YouTube the scene where grogu makes that choice, it wasn’t very impactful. Luke have him a choice, lightsaber or mandalorian chain mail (I think), he picked the chain and then went and found Mando again. Then fought a Rancour, well put it to sleep. 
 

Book of bobba fett was actually pretty fun to watch. 

[DojoToad]

36 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The Origins shorts are cannon to the tv show, and are book accurate.
They delve into the Ogier, the One Power (the two halves), the fall of Manetheren, The breaking, and even a certain tale about the greatest swordsman's sole defeat to a farmer with a stick.

Hate the show all you want, you'll love the shorts, and wish the series was animated.

That will probably just make me sadder.

[Scarloc99]

53 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

That wasn't my understanding from what I've read on this forum - especially in regards to AoL background.  If it is truly just bonus material, then we can take it or leave it.  I watched some of the bonus stuff for LotR.  Some was interesting, but I probably didn't see more than an hour.  It didn't add to the movies (for me) so I stopped.  Other folks probably watched the hell out of it...

My wife knows nothing about WOT, didn’t watch origins and picked up pretty much all the important points from just watching the TV show. 

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

That wasn't my understanding from what I've read on this forum - especially in regards to AoL background.  If it is truly just bonus material, then we can take it or leave it.  I watched some of the bonus stuff for LotR.  Some was interesting, but I probably didn't see more than an hour.  It didn't add to the movies (for me) so I stopped.  Other folks probably watched the hell out of it...

 

I haven't watched the Origins stuff and had no trouble understanding what was going on.

 

Granted, I'm not quite a WoT newbie because I have tried to read some of the books in the past, but it's been enough years that anything I remembered in terms of specifics is effectively limited to the barest of basics, so if I can grasp what's going on without the Origins stuff, people who are complete newbies are going to be just fine with what the show itself shows us without needing to delve into the Origins material.

[WhiteVeils]

You don't need much to watch the show; you don't need the origins episodes. BUT you also don't need to know the terms 'Saidar and Saidin' to watch the show...everything relevant about the differences between male and female channeling is already in the show. But purists freaked out that it didn't put the terms into the show, although they put them in the origins.  What's 'needed' depends on your attitude before you go in.

[DigificWriter]

21 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

You don't need much to watch the show; you don't need the origins episodes. BUT you also don't need to know the terms 'Saidar and Saidin' to watch the show...everything relevant about the differences between male and female channeling is already in the show. But purists freaked out that it didn't put the terms into the show, although they put them in the origins.  What's 'needed' depends on your attitude before you go in.

 

Exactly.

 

The idea that the Origins stuff has to be watched in order for the show to make sense is A) pushing an anti-show agenda and B) disrespecting anyone new to the world of WoT by implying that they're incapable of grasping or enjoying the story of the novels as presented onscreen without being intimately familiar with the deeper lore.

[Guire]

21 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

You don't need much to watch the show; you don't need the origins episodes. BUT you also don't need to know the terms 'Saidar and Saidin' to watch the show...everything relevant about the differences between male and female channeling is already in the show. But purists freaked out that it didn't put the terms into the show, although they put them in the origins.  What's 'needed' depends on your attitude before you go in.

There is no public way to know how the show was received currently. If the show makes it to 8 seasons then whatever internal metrics Amazon required were met.  Changes were made to meet time compression, Amazon and show runner goals, and demands of media.  Then show had external problems.  At minimum a significant portion of sudience found it very mediocre.  So yes show didnt need any changes but changes may have reduced some negative perceptions without changing postive fans opinion.