Has Rings of Power proven that Fantasy Adaptations are really hard?

[SinisterDeath]

5 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

Nah, writers and showrunners just need to get over themselves and realize it's not their job to modernize, interpret, and "improve" on established and already popular stories. 

It is there job. Litterally.
Showrunners & writers aren't nearly as powerful as they used to be in a shows direction. Streaming services like Netflix/Amazon, don't operate how old-school TV used to be run.

Now days, if a Producer/Executive says add a giant mechanical spider tank in the show, the showrunner/writers can't tell them to go balefire themselves.

 

5 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

Rewriting characters, changing motives, and generally playing fast and loose with the source material will always be a recipe for disaster.

Always?

Ever watched Dexter?
How about True Blood?

[DojoToad]

47 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It is there job. Litterally.
Showrunners & writers aren't nearly as powerful as they used to be in a shows direction. Streaming services like Netflix/Amazon, don't operate how old-school TV used to be run.

Now days, if a Producer/Executive says add a giant mechanical spider tank in the show, the showrunner/writers can't tell them to go balefire themselves.

 

And some are much better than others.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

And some are much better than others.

Some producers/execs are definitely better than others. (Look at HBO)

[Guest Cranglevoid]

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It is there job. Litterally.
Showrunners & writers aren't nearly as powerful as they used to be in a shows direction. Streaming services like Netflix/Amazon, don't operate how old-school TV used to be run.

Now days, if a Producer/Executive says add a giant mechanical spider tank in the show, the showrunner/writers can't tell them to go balefire themselves.

 

Always?

Ever watched Dexter?
How about True Blood?

Nope, sure isn't. And the discussion at hand is about fantasy series, not media in general.

[SinisterDeath]

16 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

Nope, sure isn't.

Yes it is.
Are these writers getting paid to write shows? Yes? Then that's their job. It doesn't matter what you believe a writers job is, if a writer is paid to do X and they do X, then that is literally their job. 

Are you their employer? No? The Producers & Execs are.

 

25 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

And the discussion at hand is about fantasy series, not media in general.

How things are done on streaming services like Netflix & Amazon vs traditional networks or as you put it "media in general", is part of this discussion. Showrunners/Writers aren't the only factor in what makes it difficult to adapt fantasy to the small screen.

In the days of yore, Show runners almost had dictatorial fiat in regards to a shows direction and writing.

If a producer (money bags) came in and said they wanted the show to write out X actor/character, Change wolves to Bears, insert a coke bottle for ad revenue, the Show runner could tell them to go balefire themselves. 

Now? Show runners on streaming services, don't have that kind of power. If a exec/producer says insert a coke can, they have to write it in.

The ramifications of Producers & Execs ham fisting their "vision" into a show is a tale as old as Hollywood.

Execs & Producers also make better scapegoats for everything wrong with a series, than blaming everything on the showrunner (Rafe) or the other Writers.

[A Memory Of Why]

I get the ludicrous back story but am I the only one that thought the giant mechanical spider tank was stupidly fun? It's not like it was a serious movie to begin with, though I guess I was a little dude when that came out.

 

I do wonder why Rafe is getting all the flack, it seemed obvious to me that Amazon are the real darkfriends here. 

 

Would have been nice if they released 6 episodes and had taken there time to sort the last 2, also from what I've read most people agree a longer runtime with a couple extra episodes would have been amazing. I believe Rafe is on record saying he wanted the same?

Edited November 4, 2022 by A Memory Of Why

[SinisterDeath]

44 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

I get the ludicrous back story but am I the only one that thought the giant mechanical spider tank was stupidly fun? It's not like it was a serious movie to begin with, though I guess I was a little dude when that came out.

Have you seen the Kevin Smith "standup" story about how that all happened? Makes the story of how it all happened so much more funny.

 

46 minutes ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Would have been nice if they released 6 episodes and had taken there time to sort the last 2, also from what I've read most people agree a longer runtime with a couple extra episodes would have been amazing. I believe Rafe is on record saying he wanted the same?

I don't know if he's on record saying he wanted more episodes, but he is on record saying that season 2 will have longer episodes.

[A Memory Of Why]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

Have you seen the Kevin Smith "standup" story about how that all happened? Makes the story of how it all happened so much more funny.

 

Yep yep, I've heard the story. It's quite.. "ludicrous". Still didn't mind the movie, again I was a lil man when it came out and enjoyed its stupid silly funness.

 

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know if he's on record saying he wanted more episodes, but he is on record saying that season 2 will have longer episodes.

 

I swear it was early on, he wanted a movie length 1st episode and hoped for a 10 ep season..?

 

S2 will have longer episodes! I've been arguing with my good friend Denial about that last episode and ole matey D has been saying we should be quite hopefully fo S2 😉

Edited November 4, 2022 by A Memory Of Why

[DojoToad]

I don't know what Rafe wanted, but he messed up the first 4 episodes enough to make me stop watching the season.  

[Guest Cranglevoid]

12 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes it is.
Are these writers getting paid to write shows? Yes? Then that's their job. It doesn't matter what you believe a writers job is, if a writer is paid to do X and they do X, then that is literally their job. 

Are you their employer? No? The Producers & Execs are.

 

How things are done on streaming services like Netflix & Amazon vs traditional networks or as you put it "media in general", is part of this discussion. Showrunners/Writers aren't the only factor in what makes it difficult to adapt fantasy to the small screen.

In the days of yore, Show runners almost had dictatorial fiat in regards to a shows direction and writing.

If a producer (money bags) came in and said they wanted the show to write out X actor/character, Change wolves to Bears, insert a coke bottle for ad revenue, the Show runner could tell them to go balefire themselves. 

Now? Show runners on streaming services, don't have that kind of power. If a exec/producer says insert a coke can, they have to write it in.

The ramifications of Producers & Execs ham fisting their "vision" into a show is a tale as old as Hollywood.

Execs & Producers also make better scapegoats for everything wrong with a series, than blaming everything on the showrunner (Rafe) or the other Writers.

Nope, out of the perspective of the fans (didn't think I had to point this out, but here we are...), their job is to adapt the original work as closely as possible, as allowed by the new medium.

[DigificWriter]

6 hours ago, Cranglevoid said:

Nope, out of the perspective of the fans, their job is to adapt the original work as closely as possible, as allowed by the new medium.

 

That's not adaptation; it's translation.

 

Also, adaptations are not made "for the fans"; they're made for general audiences, and if existing fans get on board as well, that's a bonus.

 

 

[MasterAblar]

Amazon isn't pouring milions of dollars into these adaptation just to cater to the fans of the source material though. They want to cater to the largest possible audience, and will insist on all kinds of changes in order to achieve that. Faithfulness to the original work just isn't the priority for them.

 

The showrunner hopefully tries to limit that (and also, you know, put out a good show hopefully), but their power is ultimately limited.

 

Incidentally, this could also be why fantasy adaptation are very difficult. They cost a ton of money meaning they become in a sense "too big too fail". Which in turn causes greater meddling from the producers, when they should just be letting the actual showrunner/filmaker/script writers do their jobs.

Edited November 5, 2022 by MasterAblar

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

Amazon isn't pouring milions of dollars into these adaptation just to cater to the fans of the source material though. They want to cater to the largest possible audience, and will insist on all kinds of changes in order to achieve that. Faithfulness to the original work just isn't the priority for them.

 

The showrunner hopefully tries to limit that (and also, you know, put out a good show hopefully), but their power is ultimately limited.

 

Incidentally, this could also be why fantasy adaptation are very difficult. They cost a ton of money meaning they become in a sense "too big too fail". Which in turn causes greater meddling from the producers, when they should just be letting the actual showrunner/filmaker/script writers do their jobs.

The infamous quote of "1000 notes on the first episode alone" rings here.

[Guest Cranglevoid]

2 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

That's not adaptation; it's translation.

 

Also, adaptations are not made "for the fans"; they're made for general audiences, and if existing fans get on board as well, that's a bonus.

 

 

Nope, translation doesn't allow for the adding and removing of content.

[Jacobr]

Wow, it’s striking that some people in this thread don’t understand how having a job works.

 

Rafe ( or any showrunner, no matter how experienced or not) have a responsibility to please Amazon before a hardcore fan audience, their employment literally depends on it. If Amazon wants Perrin and Rand in a love triangle with Egwene then that’s what Amazon gets. They are paying the bill to make this show.  It’s Rafe job to try to make it as palatable to the fans as possible. If the showrunner says no? Guess what? They get replaced with someone who will say yes. 

[expat]

Quote

Nope, translation doesn't allow for the adding and removing of content.

You do understand that they have about 64 hours to present 12000 pages of material?  That is 187 pages an hour.  You can't read the books aloud that fast.  Of course they have to remove content.  Once you remove content, you have to add new content to make the remaining (faithful) stuff make sense and achieve consistency within the story as well as address all the important information in the cut portions.

 

In a previous post I characterized this as cutting a 6x4 lace to fit within a 5x3 frame where the stuff cut is randomly distributed in the entire 6x4 lace.  You end up with lots of holes where new content has to be added to stich up the tapestry while telling a story similar to the original tapestry.

 

To "translate" this story with the minimum cuts and new material would likely lead to a very unwatchable program.  Adaptation, while less faithful, gives a much better chance at a watchable series.

[DaddyFinn]

10 hours ago, expat said:

You do understand that they have about 64 hours to present 12000 pages of material? 

Or 64 hours to present ~461 hours of audiobook material. It's a monumental task.

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Or 64 hours to present ~461 hours of audiobook material. It's a monumental task.

It is.  They should have hired someone up to the task.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

It is.  They should have hired someone up to the task.

Who says they haven't?

[DojoToad]

59 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Who says they haven't?

Me

[SinisterDeath]

24 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Me

So you hired Rafe?

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

So you hired Rafe?

I said Amazon didn’t hire someone up to the task. 

[Cauthonfan4]

7 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Who says they haven't?

considering the show is sitting at around a 60% approval rating during a time when anything below 50% is practically unheard of? I'd say a lot of people are disappointed.

[Mirefox]

One thing g that jumped out at me with both WoT and RoP is that both shows seems to find it necessary to create a mystery over a character’s identity much, in my option, to the detriment of the show and and a cost of fidelity to the source material.  I guess that makes me wonder if there is something inherent to the fantasy genre where the story and world building can’t stand on their own in a TV format?

[Guest Cranglevoid]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:56 AM, expat said:

You do understand that they have about 64 hours to present 12000 pages of material?  That is 187 pages an hour.  You can't read the books aloud that fast.  Of course they have to remove content.  Once you remove content, you have to add new content to make the remaining (faithful) stuff make sense and achieve consistency within the story as well as address all the important information in the cut portions.

 

In a previous post I characterized this as cutting a 6x4 lace to fit within a 5x3 frame where the stuff cut is randomly distributed in the entire 6x4 lace.  You end up with lots of holes where new content has to be added to stich up the tapestry while telling a story similar to the original tapestry.

 

To "translate" this story with the minimum cuts and new material would likely lead to a very unwatchable program.  Adaptation, while less faithful, gives a much better chance at a watchable series.

No idea why you're quoting me. I'm not the one mentioning or advocating "translation". I'm literally calling for an adaptation rather than a re-imagining.