body swap

[Big Red Shed]

Could anyone explain the "body swap" theory to me?

 

It's been mentioned a number of times and a few people seem to take it as gospel.

 

However, I can find very little evidence of it in the books and all the previous discussion threads have degenerated into petty bitchiness and pointless nitpicking...

[RobertAlexWillis]

A basic overview is that Rand and Moridin's souls will swap bodies as the final symptom of the link that has been formed between them.

 

The basis for this in the books is the fact that Rand has been seeing his face when he seizes saidin, the nausea that that accompanies it each time (which is apparently shared by Moridin), and Min's viewing in ACoS ch 33 which says: "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

It is also used to explain how Rand can live by dying, according to the Aelfinn answer he got. His soul would live on in Moridin's body, and his body would die.

 

The means by which this swap is supposed to occur is by one or both of them siezing saidin in close physical proximity to the other. The "tugging" that has allowed them to see one another and share physical symptoms (nausea) at great distance would, according to the theory, cause their souls to swap bodies if it occurs when they are close.

 

I am not personally an adherent of this theory, however, I think I've summed it up. Luckers can give more detail and support if you're really interested.

[Luckers]

I suppose i should answer this, concidering i first addressed it. The body swap theory is based on my attempt to address the issue of confliction of prophecy. People had come up with any number of explanations that addressed and answered individual prophecies, but the problem was that there were numerous prophecies that addressed the death of Rand. Together, they established a sequence of requirements for that incident. The complete list of those prophecies that are relevent are as follows.

 

EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

Which possibly connects to...

 

EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

And maybe this too...

 

EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

MIN VIEWING: three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it. [tEotW]

 

MIN VIEWING: I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't. [ACOS: 33, A Bath, 526]

 

MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255]

 

Which ties to...

 

WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other.

 

AELFINN ANSWER: He [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

PERRIN DREAMING: Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

 

Which ties to...

 

MIN VIEWING: a beggar's staff. [tEotW]

 

 

In any case, individually there are answers to all. My attempt was to look at what, as a whole, they established. Too me, this sequence layed down a certain set of requirements.

 

ON RANDS DEATH.

 

1. Rand must actually die. Or, at least, some aspect of him (this ties into the definition of death in this world, which i will address later). In any case the language is fairly clear, too clear for it to be a faked death, or just people assuming he's dead in the event that he disapears. He must die.

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive that death... and i mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resusitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. The language is concurrent. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives. That forbids balefire too, by the way.

 

Now, death in this world is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead. This has been shown many times, both in the nature of the Wheel itself, and specifically in the deaths and recycling of the Forsaken. Death=the death of the body.

 

ON THE BODY-SWAP

 

So, with those requirements in mind, lets look at some of the other prophecies, specifically those deal with Rand blending with another man, Rand putting on masks and becoming them, Rand being a beggar, and so on.

 

Now, Rand assumes that Min's viewing regarding him blending with another man refers to Lews Therin, yet at the time Min reacts with disbelief, as if something about that did not sit right with her. I suggest the possibility that it is in fact Mordin that this refers to.

 

The actual facilitating factor of the body-swap is the mental link that Rand forms with Moridin during the incident in which their balefire streams crossed in Shadar Logoth in book 7. Since then, we have seen that link grow increasingly stronger. Moreover, we have seen that the link is apparent when Rand siezes the power. Saidin is the contributing factor of the link, which is likely why Moridin has given over its use entirely, something he never did before in all his three thousand years.

 

In any case by KoD we see that the link has grown strong enough for Rand to actively percieve Moridin, as opposed to a nauseating jumble of perceptions, or a blurry half-image. I believe that it will continue to grow. Then, during the final assault at Shayoul Ghoul, i believe that Rand and Moridin will fight each other, and that Rand will sever Moridin's connection to the dark one, as he did once before. Moridin will draw on saidin, and that will complete the link resulting in the bodyswap.

 

CONCLUSION AND TIE IN

 

Now, thats all very good, and whatnot, but whats the ultimate tie in that i suggested was the reason i constructed this theory?

 

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

I dont nessasarily like the bodyswap. I just think it is the only thing that fits all the facts, and is the most likely to occur.

[Vemynal]

What about the part of the prophecies that mentions his blood spilling on shay ghul and all that jazz?

 

though its completely possible the battle between rand and moridin could happen there. especially if no one else was to know about it

[Big Red Shed]

Thank you, that's made it much clearer for me.

 

I have always suspected that Min's "merge" viewing related direcly to Rand's struggle with Lews Therin and i musr confess that i would be abit disappointed if it didn't.

 

Still, a good theory and well thought out

[wvlr]

Wow! Thanks Luckers!

 

I think I read a little of that on another of your posts but it was not spelled out as well as you did this time.

 

It looks like a pretty good theory. Not that I like the "body swap" concept, but from the book references that you quoted, it seems the only way.

 

He better get busy and make his Babies with Aviendra and Min. Otherwise, they will effectively be the babies of whoever Mordin got his body from.

 

Wonder how everyone else will adjust to his new body?

 

PS. That may be part of how he beats Mordin. Once the transfer takes place, Mordin will have to cope with all the pain that Rand has learned to ignore and the partial blindness.

 

Nice catch on how Mordin's sole use of the True Power would fit into this theory, but I thought that was what he had always done - That being how he got the "Black/Fire Eyes" in the first few books.

[Luckers]

It looks like a pretty good theory. Not that I like the "body swap" concept, but from the book references that you quoted, it seems the only way.

 

To be perfectly honest i feel the same way. I don't really like it. It feels slightly crass to me. But as you said, at the moment it is the only way.

 

Nice catch on how Mordin's sole use of the True Power would fit into this theory, but I thought that was what he had always done - That being how he got the "Black/Fire Eyes" in the first few books.

 

Ishamael, and later Moridin, used to use the True Power predominantly, but he also used to use saidin quite heavily. Recently though it has been commented on by the other Forsaken that he has stopped using saidin altogether. They concider this fairly insane, given the side-effects of heavy True Power usage.

 

On top of that, in the vision Rand has of Moridin, he looks angry and sick. It has been suggested that like Rand he has been feeling the nausia that comes with the rush of perceptions through the link when touching saidin.

 

It has also been suggested that Moridin's recent reiteration of the No-Kill order has to do with the increasing strength of the link. Moridin has a lot to worry about should Rand die, based on what we see of warders and such when their bond is severed.

 

I have always suspected that Min's "merge" viewing related direcly to Rand's struggle with Lews Therin and i musr confess that i would be abit disappointed if it didn't.

 

I don't really have any direct evidence against it, aside from the increasing strength of the Moridin link. But i do remember thinking at the time that the way Rand lept on that viewing as meaning LTT, and Min's unuttered doubt about that interpretation, read like foreshadow. RJ usually has his characters turn out to be wrong when they jump to conclusions like this--a direct parallel of Rand and Min would be to look at how Elaida and Tarna conversations play out.

 

But still, no real evidence.

 

What about the part of the prophecies that mentions his blood spilling on shay ghul and all that jazz?

 

though its completely possible the battle between rand and moridin could happen there. especially if no one else was to know about it

 

I believe his blood spilling has nothing to do with him dying. I think its another one of those foreshadow moments i stated above. Look at the conviction with which various characters--such as Elaida and Rand--have interpreted that to mean that he dies.

 

Possibly Rand is injured greatly, is bleeding everywhere, the body-swap occurs, and Rand leaves moridin to die, but he doesn't die. Either way i don't think the blood has to do with a death. Its too obvious, and RJ has had it assumed to mean that too many times.

 

And yes, i think the battle between Moridin and Rand will take place in Shayoul Ghoul, for more on that, though, read the A Memory of Light Plot (Part Deux) thread.

[Nelal Hurcran]

This is the only outcome that makes any since to me. Just one problem:

 

Saidin is the contributing factor of the link, which is likely why Moridin has given over its use entirely,

 

I can't realy agree with this.

 

Unless I'm mistaken (I don't have book 7 in front of me) Moridin used the True Source to weave the bailfire in Shadar Logoth. Or, at least, Rand couldn't see the weaves. Following that logic, wouldn't it be Rand's connection to saidin and Moridin's connection to the TS that is the

contributing factor of the link

?

 

Just my two bits.

[Luckers]

I think you meant True Power, and yes, he did. But that being said, it seems to be saidin that serves as the facilitator of the connection in the sense that when saidin is used, the connection is opened in a way both characters can detect.

[Singer]

As for Rand sleeping with the girls after a body swap!  Really.  He just walks

up and says "Hi, I know I don't look like me, but this is me Rand.  Give me

a big kiss."

[TheRedSon]

Well, thanks to the bond and Min's Talent they probably will be the only ones to recognize him if this happens.

[Nelal Hurcran]

WHOH!!!! :o :o :o

 

Just thought of this...

 

Would the bond stay on Rand if he left his body? I mean, if he changed, how would they know it was him otherwise. But if he does still have it, why would they be standing around a funeral bier, supposedly lamenting his death?

[TheRedSon]

Maybe Rand has more going for him than RJ has let on...

 

Maybe I just realized why Ishy's so upset...

[Kura]

Well, I think it would have been a cool twist if I hadn't read this topic and the body swap happened, but now it seems like the only way. You tend to do this to me Luckers >_>;

 

And to add to the theory that the whole body swap will happen at SG, its been mentioned that reality is a little warped there (sure you can find the quotes) by the chosen on a few occasions, particularly in relation to souls and the power, look at those mind traps, I believe, that Moradin has, they are related to both the soul and channeling, and could only be done at SG.

 

The Mind Traps existence further supports the body swap theory, as it shows that links in relation to souls and the power are not only plausible, but have happened. Not only links to other living entities and I believe souls, like Rand and Moradins, but to objects such as the mind traps, and their bodies are objects, if slightly more complicated than a jewelry box. ;)

 

Feel free to tear paragraph 2 apart, its loosely drawn and I can't seem to think of the words to desribe the idea in full, and its based on assumptions, but I believe that paragraph 1 fits and supports the body swap theory quite nicely, and it happening at SG.

[ilConte]

WOW!

Thats brilliant it just became clear to me...but I still hope it won't happen or that it happens before he goes to SG and that he dies definitely in the end...possibly braking the world in the process.

 

[Luckers]

And to add to the theory that the whole body swap will happen at SG, its been mentioned that reality is a little warped there (sure you can find the quotes) by the chosen on a few occasions, particularly in relation to souls and the power, look at those mind traps, I believe, that Moradin has, they are related to both the soul and channeling, and could only be done at SG.

 

Why so they do. That never occured to me. Beyond that we also have RJ's comment that the blight does not have a reflection in TAR because it is somewhere else. Distortions and false realities... interesting.

 

The Mind Traps existence further supports the body swap theory, as it shows that links in relation to souls and the power are not only plausible, but have happened. Not only links to other living entities and I believe souls, like Rand and Moradins, but to objects such as the mind traps, and their bodies are objects, if slightly more complicated than a jewelry box.

 

You know the funny thing, the implication of Rand in Moridins body re: the cour'souvra never occured to me....

 

 

[The Lost One]

 

The Mind Traps existence further supports the body swap theory, as it shows that links in relation to souls and the power are not only plausible, but have happened. Not only links to other living entities and I believe souls, like Rand and Moradins, but to objects such as the mind traps, and their bodies are objects, if slightly more complicated than a jewelry box. ;)

 

You make a GREAT point!  I never even thought about the Mind Traps in relation to the body swap theory.  Thanks!

[wvlr]

Luckers,

 

Could Alivia's aid be in part that she cuts Mordin's link to the DO.    I could see Rand & Mordin occupying each other with fighting or with nausea from Rand's seizing of Power and he tells her - "cut there".    She is strong enough and would obey his commands without thought/delay.  Thus she would facilitate the "swap" at a time when the condition is at it's peak and his ability to make the cut is at it's lowest.  As well as Mordin's ability to stop her due to his nausea is at it's lowest as well.

 

Not saying that she and Rand don't track him down later and kill him, but "help him die" seems to imply more to me that just being with him to track down and kill Mordin in his body.

 

Most anyone could do that, but few would obey his commands so devotedly as she would and do something that otherwise seemed senseless.  (Assuming that Rand is the only one that can see the "Black Cords").

 

[Mat is Better]

Wow, I have never been fond of this theory which I read about long ago.  However, Nelal's comments about the funeral bier just struck a chord.  What if Moridin were to die (in Rand's body) w/o anyone else finding out about the link.  Rand would be in a position to totally destroy the shadow, although the DO would probably know it wasn't moridin (having the ability to put souls in bodies etc).

[wvlr]

Wow, I have never been fond of this theory which I read about long ago. 

 

Well I still don't like the darn thing - but everytime I see something new it looks more and more likely.

 

 

I wish Luckers and RAW would put their combined considerable WoT knowledge and intelect toward finding a different solution.

 

 

Adding more fuel to this miserable fire though:

 

 

I think that one reason that Tam is still alive is to help Rand accept his new body.

 

If his three wives and adopted father can all accept him in his new body, then I think it will be easier for Rand to accept it.

 

Since Rand is not his biological son, I think that Tam will accept him fairly easily.

 

Of corse it does not hurt that Mordin's body is not bad looking as well.

 

 

Got to figure that the three girls and Tam would have a little more trouble if Rand poped up in Halamina's body!

[cloglord]

He better get busy and make his Babies with Aviendra and Min.    Otherwise, they will effectively be the babies of whoever Mordin got his body from.

 

I don't remember any prophecy or viewing that dictated that Min would have Rand's babies.  That thought aside, I suspect that if Rand/Min babies are destined, its probably already happened, they've been going at i tlike rabbits for a couple of books now.

 

The body swap theory could definately explain the strangeness foretold for Avhienda's progeny.  If Min saw all of Avhi's babies with dark hair and eyes, it probably would have seemed strange....

 

As for the prophecized blood on the rocks, I think that it could be a red herring, of the type that Luckers described earlier.  Not only do I disagree that this incident describes Rand's death, I don't think that it it literally Rand's blood that will stain the rocks, but rather his blood, The Aiel, as they die at shayol Ghul, "screaming their defiance with their last breaths..."

[Nelal Hurcran]

As for the prophecized blood on the rocks, I think that it could be a red herring, of the type that Luckers described earlier.  Not only do I disagree that this incident describes Rand's death, I don't think that it it literally Rand's blood that will stain the rocks, but rather his blood, The Aiel, as they die at shayol Ghul, "screaming their defiance with their last breaths..."

 

I just thought of this*. Couldn't his blood on the rocks be Luc? He is much closer, blood wise, than any Aiel we've met. And he either has to be separated, and/or join the Light side, or die. What a fitting death, on the slopes of the mount that, presumably, made him who he is.

 

 

 

* That seems to be the only way I ever come up with theories. No thinking things through, only "I just thought of this." 

 

[stoneface]

Rand was bonded by four women, so what happens to the bonds?  I don't know of any text clues in that case.  However, Min (ssuming that she still sees auras at that time) will be able to recognize Rand on sight, even if she doen't believe what she sees.  Rand has too many things going against him, and death is one way to escape.  I could easily see Rand ending up with Min, and Min coming up to him saying, "Let's go home, sheepherder."  Then healthy, strong, good-looking, "incognito" Moridin-Rand and Min head off toward the Two Rivers.

[Luckers]

Could Alivia's aid be in part that she cuts Mordin's link to the DO.    I could see Rand & Mordin occupying each other with fighting or with nausea from Rand's seizing of Power and he tells her - "cut there".    She is strong enough and would obey his commands without thought/delay.  Thus she would facilitate the "swap" at a time when the condition is at it's peak and his ability to make the cut is at it's lowest.  As well as Mordin's ability to stop her due to his nausea is at it's lowest as well.

 

Absolutely. Pretty much everything is possible with the 'how' that Alivia kills Moridin. I like the idea of them coming on him some months after Tarmon gai'don because i think it would be an excellent way to wrap the series (Do it from his point of view, feelings of frustration, hoplessness, then have alivia and Rand kill him--way better than that shi--epilogue that Rowling wrote).

 

But yeah, it completely could involve Alivia influencing the bodyswap. Makes a lot of sense.

 

Well I still don't like the darn thing - but everytime I see something new it looks more and more likely.

 

 

I wish Luckers and RAW would put their combined considerable WoT knowledge and intelect toward finding a different solution.

 

Lol. I don't like it all that much myself. The issue is that it fits every prophecy we have. Every other theory can have powerful support in one prophecy yet is seemingly denied by another.

 

I just don't see how it could happen any other way.

 

As for the prophecized blood on the rocks, I think that it could be a red herring, of the type that Luckers described earlier.  Not only do I disagree that this incident describes Rand's death, I don't think that it it literally Rand's blood that will stain the rocks, but rather his blood, The Aiel, as they die at shayol Ghul, "screaming their defiance with their last breaths..."

 

Is it wierd that we seem to be agreeing alot lately? I'm liking it. :)

 

Rand was bonded by four women, so what happens to the bonds?  I don't know of any text clues in that case.  However, Min (ssuming that she still sees auras at that time) will be able to recognize Rand on sight, even if she doen't believe what she sees.  Rand has too many things going against him, and death is one way to escape.  I could easily see Rand ending up with Min, and Min coming up to him saying, "Let's go home, sheepherder."  Then healthy, strong, good-looking, "incognito" Moridin-Rand and Min head off toward the Two Rivers.

 

Considering the prophecy of the three women at a funeral bier of a man who is still alive (if indeed it is about Rand, which whilst likely is not certain) it seems likely that the bond is severed, and that Rand's girls think he is dead for some time at least.

 

But no, i dont see Rand and Min running off to the Two Rivers. His love for Aviendha and Elayne would interfere too much.

[wvlr]

 

Lol. I don't like it all that much myself. The issue is that it fits every prophecy we have. Every other theory can have powerful support in one prophecy yet is seemingly denied by another.

 

I just don't see how it could happen any other way.

 

 

Oh, I agree.    When everything is put together over the entire set of books like you did, it seems to be as near a certainty as anything in fiction can be.     Especially after KoD.

 

The only contradicting "clue" that you left out is the assorted Nynaeve references that "she will not be happy until she cures death itself."   This could be just a decoy.

 

 

I was hoping though, that you and/or RAW could divorce yourselves from this theory long enough to find another way.    BECAUSE IT STINKS!   

 

 

Who was it that said?  "Reality Stinks!    Get over it!"    Seems like that applies quite well here.