Age of Legends cold open

[SilentRoamer]

9 hours ago, Andra said:

Considering that neither of them existed until more than a thousand years after Lews Therin's death, I would certainly argue they didn't understand them then.  😉

 

I mean as excuses go this one is pretty watertight. I am not sure why I was thinking Shadar Logoth formed during the Collapse. 

[Andra]

27 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

 

I mean as excuses go this one is pretty watertight. I am not sure why I was thinking Shadar Logoth formed during the Collapse. 

You were probably confusing it with the darkness in the Ways - which still didn't happen until after his death, but was quite a bit closer to him in time.  And he would have likely known the Aes Sedai involved in the initial creation of the Ways.

[SilentRoamer]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

You were probably confusing it with the darkness in the Ways - which still didn't happen until after his death, but was quite a bit closer to him in time.  And he would have likely known the Aes Sedai involved in the initial creation of the Ways.

 

I sometimes get mixed up between the War of the Shadow and the Trolloc Wars. I would imagine, given the level of governance, that Lews Therin (if not directly involved) probably played some sort of role with the creation of the Ways - even if in just a casual planning or agreement legislation. (I mean he was pretty much World President).

 

I am really hoping that in one of the AoL cold opens that we get to see the Ways before they were tainted/corrupted/decayed. 

[Nik]

The Ways were created by male channelers who were sheltering in Ogier steddings after the tainting of saidin. So LTT was definitely already dead.

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Nik said:

The Ways were created by male channelers who were sheltering in Ogier steddings after the tainting of saidin. So LTT was definitely already dead.

He was certainly dead by the time the Talisman of Growing was given to the Ogier.  But he would probably have known the people beforehand who did so.

 

One other point that isn't really addressed, but is kind of implied by what we do hear:

Those male channelers already knew how to grow the Ways before they gave them to the Ogier.  The Talisman already existed.  We are also told that the Ways were created based on research into the worlds of the Portal Stones.

 

Given all of that, it's entirely possible that the beginning of their creation happened well before Lews Therin's death, or even before the War of Power itself.  And LTT might have even been involved in it himself.

 

The Ogier wouldn't have known about the Ways until they were given the Talisman, but at least some part of them must have already existed by then.  Which is why it's significant that the Breaking didn't affect them.

[Nik]

16 hours ago, Andra said:

He was certainly dead by the time the Talisman of Growing was given to the Ogier.  But he would probably have known the people beforehand who did so.

 

One other point that isn't really addressed, but is kind of implied by what we do hear:

Those male channelers already knew how to grow the Ways before they gave them to the Ogier.  The Talisman already existed.  We are also told that the Ways were created based on research into the worlds of the Portal Stones.

 

Given all of that, it's entirely possible that the beginning of their creation happened well before Lews Therin's death, or even before the War of Power itself.  And LTT might have even been involved in it himself.

 

The Ogier wouldn't have known about the Ways until they were given the Talisman, but at least some part of them must have already existed by then.  Which is why it's significant that the Breaking didn't affect them.

Interesting. I didn't get that at all but maybe I wasn't paying attention! (I do remember the part about them being based on knowledge about Portal Worlds, though in my opinion they look a lot like the skimming space too)

Edited July 7, 2022 by Nik

[Mailman]

5 hours ago, Andra said:

He was certainly dead by the time the Talisman of Growing was given to the Ogier.  But he would probably have known the people beforehand who did so.

 

One other point that isn't really addressed, but is kind of implied by what we do hear:

Those male channelers already knew how to grow the Ways before they gave them to the Ogier.  The Talisman already existed.  We are also told that the Ways were created based on research into the worlds of the Portal Stones.

 

Given all of that, it's entirely possible that the beginning of their creation happened well before Lews Therin's death, or even before the War of Power itself.  And LTT might have even been involved in it himself.

 

The Ogier wouldn't have known about the Ways until they were given the Talisman, but at least some part of them must have already existed by then.  Which is why it's significant that the Breaking didn't affect them.

The ways would not have had anywhere the value before the breaking of the world as travelling would have been widely available and the Ogier did not get the longing sickness till after the breaking as well.

 

[Andra]

39 minutes ago, Mailman said:

The ways would not have had anywhere the value before the breaking of the world as travelling would have been widely available and the Ogier did not get the longing sickness till after the breaking as well.

 

Which is why the Ogier probably wouldn't have known about them until they were gifted the Talisman.  But they almost certainly existed - on a smaller scale - well before that.

Which makes it possible that Lews Therin knew what they were like.  Just not after they were tainted.

[Dagon Thyne]

I remember RJ saying once that the reason the female Aes Sedai refused to help LTT was because they didn't like the idea of using the OP to directly imprison the DO.  And they were right.  Using Saidin to try to hold the DO in his prison allowed him to taint it just like the TP is tainted.  They knew the TP existed, and that it was a corrupted, but undivided version of the OP used by the DO.  It's why they drilled the bore to begin with.  They like feared a possible taint like that of the TP if the OP were used directly on him, and that's exactly what happened.

 

Rand realized this and realized that the TP could be used to shield the OP from being directly touched.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Dagon Thyne

[WhiteVeils]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:00 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

I remember RJ saying once that the reason the female Aes Sedai refused to help LTT was because they didn't like the idea of using the OP to directly imprison the DO.  And they were right.  Using Saidin to try to hold the DO in his prison allowed him to taint it just like the TP is tainted.  They knew the TP existed, and that it was a corrupted, but undivided version of the OP used by the DO.  It's why they drilled the bore to begin with.  They like feared a possible taint like that of the TP if the OP were used directly on him, and that's exactly what happened.

 

Rand realized this and realized that the TP could be used to shield the OP from being directly touched.

I remember reading that too.  It's not a change, just a trivia buried in Jordan's notes that is suddenly actually more relevant.  The female Aes Sedai are more talk than action, so it's hardly a surprise that they don't take decisive and successful action to stop Lews Therin, even if they think this might be a result.

[Dagon Thyne]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:48 PM, WhiteVeils said:

I remember reading that too.  It's not a change, just a trivia buried in Jordan's notes that is suddenly actually more relevant.  The female Aes Sedai are more talk than action, so it's hardly a surprise that they don't take decisive and successful action to stop Lews Therin, even if they think this might be a result.

I think they believed his plan would fail, and so they focused on preparing the Choedan Kal to be used.  

 

In the end, everything went the way it should have.  Choedan Kal could have literally destroyed the Dark One. Rand himself was when he reached his full strength, was powerful enough to do it, and Choedan Kal has even more power, and if the Dark One were destroyed, existance as we know it would have ceased.  Good can't truly exist without evil and creation can't exist without destruction

 

I used to have a theory that the SO never actually expected, or even tried, to win.  If you think about it, all of the most evil things that happened in the story were done by humans, not the DO himself.  I think the DO exists simply to tempt humans into destroying the world so that it can be remade.  He is part of an endless cycle.  

Edited September 9, 2022 by Dagon Thyne

[MasterAblar]

On 8/6/2022 at 7:00 AM, Dagon Thyne said:

I remember RJ saying once that the reason the female Aes Sedai refused to help LTT was because they didn't like the idea of using the OP to directly imprison the DO.  And they were right.  Using Saidin to try to hold the DO in his prison allowed him to taint it just like the TP is tainted.  They knew the TP existed, and that it was a corrupted, but undivided version of the OP used by the DO.  It's why they drilled the bore to begin with.  They like feared a possible taint like that of the TP if the OP were used directly on him, and that's exactly what happened.

 

Rand realized this and realized that the TP could be used to shield the OP from being directly touched.

 

Strictly speaking the fear was not about using the OP to imprison the DO directly, or indeed touching him directly with it, but simply about channelling near Shayol Ghul, same as in the Third Age actually. That and placing the seals was incredibly dangerous. It was about proximity, and the risk to the individuals taking part in the attack not a danger to saidin itsef.

 

In fact its all but certain they did not know the tainting of saidin was possible, since the taint was not discovered for some time after.

[nsmallw]

On 7/5/2022 at 8:22 AM, DojoToad said:

LTT blew it when sealing the DO.  So how does Rand having LTT's memories help him?

 

We're back to a world that is a shadow of its former self where much (most?) previous knowledge has been lost.  But a few young adults that studied real hard manage to accomplish what the towering intellects of the previous ages could not.

Superior intellect isn't enough. Lanfear is a prime example of this. The weaknesses of humanity are still present, no matter how smart you are. In fact, I'd say that seeing yourself as superior in knowledge and thus having a right to do as you please is always present in us. 

[Sabio]

The cold open did a horrible job of portraying how desperate things were.  The strike on the DO was born out of desperation and knowing they were about to lose the war.  It seemed way to casual of a coversation.

 

LTT's memories ensured Rand didn't make the same mistake.  Without them Rand would have been going in totally blind like LTT was.

 

The Big White Book does a good job of explaining the situation.  The plan to use the giant se'angreal statues was doomed to fail because when LTT was devising his plan, the place where the ter'angeral to access the huge statues were lost.  The area they were being made was overrun by the shadow.  The ter'angeral were successfully hidden but now the Aes Sedai had no safe way to use the se'angreal.  They believed even the strongest Aes Sedai that tried to use access the giant statues would be burned out by the huge flow of One Power, probably within minutes.  The pattern basicly forced LTT to do his plan.

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

The cold open did a horrible job of portraying how desperate things were.  The strike on the DO was born out of desperation and knowing they were about to lose the war.  It seemed way to casual of a coversation.

 

LTT's memories ensured Rand didn't make the same mistake.  Without them Rand would have been going in totally blind like LTT was.

 

The Big White Book does a good job of explaining the situation.  The plan to use the giant se'angreal statues was doomed to fail because when LTT was devising his plan, the place where the ter'angeral to access the huge statues were lost.  The area they were being made was overrun by the shadow.  The ter'angeral were successfully hidden but now the Aes Sedai had no safe way to use the se'angreal.  They believed even the strongest Aes Sedai that tried to use access the giant statues would be burned out by the huge flow of One Power, probably within minutes.  The pattern basicly forced LTT to do his plan.

 

Yep, I've often though that the pattern forced things to happen as they did. It's supposed to be a complete coincidence that the shadow happened to attack where the access keys were, which, yeah right.

[Dagon Thyne]

On 9/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, MasterAblar said:

 

Strictly speaking the fear was not about using the OP to imprison the DO directly, or indeed touching him directly with it, but simply about channelling near Shayol Ghul, same as in the Third Age actually. That and placing the seals was incredibly dangerous. It was about proximity, and the risk to the individuals taking part in the attack not a danger to saidin itsef.

 

In fact its all but certain they did not know the tainting of saidin was possible, since the taint was not discovered for some time after.

 They did know about the existence of the true power and that it was a tainted version of the one power is 1 power used by the dark .  This was the reason for their hesitation to use the one power to try to refill him.  They feared that it would be tainted in some way.  This was confirmed by Robert Jordan.  

[MasterAblar]

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 They did know about the existence of the true power and that it was a tainted version of the one power is 1 power used by the dark .  This was the reason for their hesitation to use the one power to try to refill him.  They feared that it would be tainted in some way.  This was confirmed by Robert Jordan.  

 

Really? I can't find anything about it in the interview database. You don't happen to remember when he said that by any chance?

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 They did know about the existence of the true power and that it was a tainted version of the one power is 1 power used by the dark .  This was the reason for their hesitation to use the one power to try to refill him.  They feared that it would be tainted in some way.  This was confirmed by Robert Jordan.  

So they thought the true power was tainted but didn't consider that their use of the one power might taint it as well?  I'm not sure I'm following...

[Dagon Thyne]

On 9/13/2022 at 2:21 PM, DojoToad said:

So they thought the true power was tainted but didn't consider that their use of the one power might taint it as well?  I'm not sure I'm following...

 They knew about the true power and that it was tainted and they didn't want to risk the one power being tainted as well.  Also the women and several men wanted to try to use choedan Kal  Instead.  Which would have actually likely destroyed the entire world.