Why Graendal didn't kill Asmodean

[RobertAlexWillis]

Didn't Grendal take the stage for the first time in book 5 . so there would be no clues to discover in books 1-4

 

How many times was Asmodean murdered in books 1-4. Just because he said the clues were there by the end of TFoH doesn't mean that there had to be some in TEoTW.

 

Slayer is mentioned how often?

 

In the book where the murder took place? Zero.

[Beckon]

I'm sorry something else occured to me. RJ says that there are enough clues in the first 5 books to figure it out. Didn't Grendal take the stage for the first time in book 5 . so there would be no clues to discover in books 1-4 Slayer is mentioned how often?

 

We don't meet Asmodean himself until halfway through book 4, and the events that make him a target don't happen til the end. The clues are in book 5.

[chemteach1977]

I realize that Asmo had probably had his gold-card forsaken membership revoked but interesting to think that if Slayer "has" to obey the forsaken, then he may not have been able to kill Asmo. Asmo had time to shout "No!" and Slayer's knife would have stopped centimeters from Asmo's heart. Probably impossible but a funny scene.

 

Funny how the topic creator dismisses Graendal as killer due to the conjecture required and then fabricates a scene of Slayer strolling the weird halls of Finnland and bumping into Lanfear so that he can get the order to kill Asmo.

 

I never see anyone discuss the "2 servants theory" anymore. Can't claim credit for it but there is an interesting idea about the 2 servants that Rand sees while chasing Rahvin through the palace. Afterwards, it is mentioned that all servants had fled the palace so who were they? Also the servants are mentioned in the One scene where balefire is used in the physical world before they enter TaR. Just before Asmo is killed he comments on the balefire damage so he is in the Exact Same Hallway where the servants were.

 

Maybe they were 2 normal servants that were slow running away. Maybe it was Sammael and Graendal. Maybe it was Graendal and John Q. Nobody. Maybe it was Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Who knows. But that sounds like the subtle kind of hint that RJ would sneak in there.

[mègon]

Megon How long did it take Eguene to get to Salidar in the world of dreams ? Remember also that asmo was killed the same afternoon as Lanfear fell through the door. She was checking up on Rand and may have decided he was becoming to strong too fast to control with asmos help. I have no problem thinking in order to keep her hands clean she might have ordered some one else to take care of it before the door

I'm just saying excluding him for the reasons you gave won't work.

We do not know in this point that Slayer is in the World of Dreams in the flesh. Like I said, all that is pointed out at this point is that he is like Perrin. He can enter when he is asleep. Because we don't know at this point that he enters in the flesh, there is no way to assume that he does. So using Egwene's speedy travel (which hasn't happened either at this point) as a basis cannot work.

 

Everything that can be used as a clue must be found in the series before Asmo dies. This excludes 1) knowing Slayer enters the world in the flesh. 2) knowing Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken. 3) knowing whether or not Asmo recognizes Slayer (it was obvious from the description that he recognized his killer).

 

With the evidence we have up to this point, my reasons are perfectly valid.

 

Now, it may have been mentioned by Hopper that Slayer was there in the flesh. I can't remember, but I can see it as plausible. It that has been mentioned, then it removes my 1st argument, but the other 2 still stand.

[Beckon]

I realize that Asmo had probably had his gold-card forsaken membership revoked but interesting to think that if Slayer "has" to obey the forsaken' date=' then he may not have been able to kill Asmo. Asmo had time to shout "No!" and Slayer's knife would have stopped centimeters from Asmo's heart. Probably impossible but a funny scene.

 

Funny how the topic creator dismisses Graendal as killer due to the conjecture required and then fabricates a scene of Slayer strolling the weird halls of Finnland and bumping into Lanfear so that he can get the order to kill Asmo.

 

I never see anyone discuss the "2 servants theory" anymore. Can't claim credit for it but there is an interesting idea about the 2 servants that Rand sees while chasing Rahvin through the palace. Afterwards, it is mentioned that all servants had fled the palace so who were they? Also the servants are mentioned in the One scene where balefire is used in the physical world before they enter TaR. Just before Asmo is killed he comments on the balefire damage so he is in the Exact Same Hallway where the servants were.

 

Maybe they were 2 normal servants that were slow running away. Maybe it was Sammael and Graendal. Maybe it was Graendal and John Q. Nobody. Maybe it was Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Who knows. But that sounds like the subtle kind of hint that RJ would sneak in there.[/quote']

 

I've read the two servants theory and was intrigued by it enought to go and read the section. If the two were actually Graendal and Sammy...well it was a pretty good acting job the guy did, going bug-eyed over the dragons on Rand's arm. The female servant actually pulls him back...why would they not just take advantage of the situation and trap him? That's presumably what they're there for.

 

The servants having left at the time Rand is thinking it doesn't mean that there couldn't have still been some trying to get the heck out while everything was going on.

[grump]

RJ says that clues are also scattered after book 5

so that point is invalid. Slayer steps out of the world of dream as Luc to kill 2 unknowns in the flesh

so that point is invalid. The fact is that Slayer is well documented in 1-5 and Grendal isn't. Asmo has been ordered killed on sight and nobody but Lanfear knows he is shielded. His character flaws aside he was male and as such stronger than all the women Chosen except Lanfear. This argues for sending a subordinate.

 

Let me make my main point again. I don't know who killed Asmo, but your reasons for excluding Slayer don't support themselves.

[Beckon]

I don't exclude Slayer based on how many books he is or isn't in or the number of times he's mentioned. I exclude him because it requires even more conjecture than Graendal...more than Moiraine even and that's saying something.

 

Your reason for attempting to exclude Graendal because she's not introduced before book 5 is invalid on the grounds that the murder victim himself was only introduced half a book before.

[mègon]

RJ himself has said that it should have been "intuitively obvious" to anyone who had only read the series up to that point.

 

He may have also scattered clues throughout the rest of the books, but if the entire reason is based off of things that happen after Asmo is killed, then it's not very intuitively obvious to anyone who hasn't read those books.

 

Therefore, while they may be valid points, they cannot be considered as they are not presented before Asmo's death.

 

My reasoning only works if you exclude things learned after Asmo is dead. I will admit that, but I'm not trying to be all inclusive. I'm trying to say "this doesn't make it intuitive for someone to solve the mystery until a book comes out and explains something 4 years later".

[Beckon]

There's not a whole lot else in the further books, aside from a couple people showing a lack of knowledge of what happened to Asmo. I think the clues telling us who are in book 5. Anything after just serves as clarification for how.

[grump]

An interesting point

Demandred wonders in the prelude to book 6 why the DO lists Asmo as dead rather than missing, and where did I try to exclude anybody?

 

RJ said clues were scattered in the first 5 book and further clues would be forthcoming in later books.

 

I DON'T KNOW WHO KILLED HIM! but your reasons for excluding slayer don't support that conclusion.

[Beckon]

You compared the likelihood of Graendal vs. Slayer in a context of how soon and how often they were mentioned in the books. You said Slayer was brought up earlier than Graendal and was mentioned more...just because you felt like it or to say he was more likely on those grounds? I don't think when anyone was first mentioned or how often they're mentioned has any bearing on who killed Asmo. You're the one who brought that into the conversation. Forgive me for thinking you actually meant something by it.

 

On the other hand Slayer is not mentioned in book 5 at all. He's physically capable of being in Caemlyn and of committing the act...but who ordered him to do it and what evidence do we have that they did so? None. Slayer is never mentioned in context with Asmodean, and we've never seen one of the Forsaken make use of him. We've never seen him do anything but apparently organize the trolloc attacks on the Two Rivers and we don't know who put him up to that. We have no idea whether Asmodean would recognize him either.

[grump]

I think if you replace the word exclude with the word compare, you might come closer to what I had in mind. I'm sorry if I trod on your toes.

[grump]

In book 10 I believe Slayer does report to a discuised chosen that he has failed to kill Rand

[water_seeker]

Here's the skinny:

 

It wasn't Lanfear

It wasn't Graendal

It wasn't any of the forsaken because of all the great reasons it couldn't be them posted by everyone else and because to be honest Asmodean was just a composer...what could he teach Rand about warfare (forsaken mentality)?

 

It wasn't slayer, again here I have to go with what someone said about slayers hitlist being deviod of forsaken.

 

It wasn't shadar haran. Ppl have suggested it, but he didn't show up in time.

 

It was fain. At the end of the Two Rivers affair he had a POV that said he had to do stuff in Tar Valon (get the dagger) and Caemlyn (we never find out what). It just makes sense. Asmo would have recognized Fain from the "distilling" that took place in the hunt for Rand. He would have recognized Fain's foulness. And partially shielded he would have been powerless against Fain's atttack.

[Cybertrolloc]

Wasn't Fain. He was in Tar Valon too soon before the murder in Caemlyn to have done it (consider how long it takes Fain to get from Two Rivers to Tar Valon). RJ has said this.

[water_seeker]

don't underestimate Fain. And I'm not buying the whole time issue until it can be proven. And don't throw Jordan's name in there just to try to validate your point. If he really did say it, I want a quote. I am willing to accept a gholam as a possibility...

[Luckers]

No, RJ did say that it wasn't Fain. It was either in his blog, or one of the question of the week. The questioner gave RJ a list of about ten names and asked RJ to remove one, RJ chose Fain, and said that he didn't mind doing that because Fain was elsewhere, and that can be shown in the books.

[Beckon]

Question: Would you please name one character who did not kill Asmodean? Will you please name one of the following: Lanfear, Graendal, Moridin, Shaidar Haran, Padan Fain, Semirhage, Demandred, Mazrim Taim, Slayer. I thank you for your mercy and if you can please explain why they didn’t do it that would be a nice touch.

 

Jordan: Padan Fain didn’t because he wasn’t in the right place at the right time. He would have if he had been in the right place at the right time, but he wasn’t.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=101

[Luckers]

Thanks mate, your a champ.

[water_seeker]

Thanks guys. I'm disappointed (though not suprised) that I'm wrong. I do appreciate the quote.

[deathgate]

The one thing that has always stood out for me is Asmodean saying "you". He seems so surprised. After helping Rand he has to know the Forsaken are going to be after him so would any of them elicit such surprise? Maybe I am reading to much into it and the surprise is that they are there then.

[Beckon]

I've always felt that myself but then I wonder when I think about who might elicit that response.

 

Moiraine would - I don't buy motive for her and... well she's being held prisoner in another world when it happens.

 

Lanfear would - motive is a little better but I still think Rand or Avi would be her target before Asmo. The whole reason the fiasco at the docks happened was because she flew into a jealous Rage over Lews Therin "cheating" on her. Again we have the prisoner in another world problem.

 

Slayer - IF Asmo knew him...but then we more or less don't know diddly squat about him at the time.

[deathgate]

What about Taim? My timeline is off as I haven't read the first ones in a while but he had just showed up. Did Asmo have anything to do with his training?

[Beckon]

Taim didn't present himself to Rand til after Asmo was dead. There's no indication that the two ever met.

[BrainFireBob]

The three "Asmo's Killer" criteria, as "classically" debated:

 

1) Someone he knew and recognized, and did not expect to see

 

2) Someone he was afraid of, coupled with

 

3) Someone who could kill him, an AoL channeller still of decent channelling strength with combat experience, with sufficient ease he didn't even try to defend himself.

 

Slayer fails #3, as does Moiraine.

 

These criteria limit the suspects to Graendal, Semirhage, Sammael, Mesaana, and Demandred. New body Forsaken he wouldn't recognize (realize Cyndane would have been mindtrapped as soon as she was reincarnated), Mesaana and Semirhage were established as having difficulties leaving their charges, that leaves three persons (plus they both confirm later they did not do it):

 

Sammael, Demandred, and Graendal- TWO of whom are clearly eliminated in the next book, and the third of whom:

 

1) Displays certainty of Asmo's death- possibly under compulsion, re-read the section from Sammael where he comments on her being furious at "her own tricks being used on her"- coupled with her being "surprised to hear her own voice."

 

2) Had a meeting with Moghedian, who was in tel'aran'rhiod in Caemlyn during the Rahvin-Rand battle, in all probability during the meeting

 

3) Went to Illian after Sammael died to remove any evidence of their alliance and hunt for goodies- under the noses of Rand AND the Asha'man, a far greater threat than existed in going to Caemlyn (establishing modus operandi)

 

4) Did SOMETHING to "all-but be named Nae'blis"

 

5) Is the only one who can fit the intuitively obvious criteria- the four had an alliance: Rahvin's dead, Lanfear's in another dimension, Sammael's wondering where Rand is in Illian, meaning the reader should ask "Hey, where's Graendal?"- the only "active" Forsaken in the book we do NOT know the whereabouts of at the time.

 

Several of those clues come from later books, although they are not, as Jordan noted, underlined with flaming arrows.