Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[Dagon Thyne]

6 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

You actually believe "Dumai's Wells" will happen?

At this point they might refer to "something...something" as "Dumai's Wells" but don't get your hopes up that it will resemble anything like the awesome chapter they'll rip it from.

It was a major story arc for Rand's deveopment.  I highly doubt they will cut it.  They need it to further the storyline.  

[Dagon Thyne]

18 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

 

I don't necessarily think they're going to go with the Tower split any earlier than in the books, but I suspect when they do it they will kill Siuan off instead of having her and Leane escape.  The reason being -who they have cast, I cannot see someone of Sophie Okonedo's  calibre sitting on their heels for a couple of years to be a regular in a TV series like this.

If the did keep her alive, they'd like use an actress with similar looks to poray them.  Remember, being still made them younger in appeance.  The characters could be portrayed by younger, lesser known actors.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

If the did keep her alive, they'd like use an actress with similar looks to poray them.  Remember, being still made them younger in appeance.  The characters could be portrayed by younger, lesser known actors.

But that was based on the "ageless" effect - which doesn't exist in the show.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

It was a major story arc for Rand's deveopment.  I highly doubt they will cut it.  They need it to further the storyline.  

Pretty much everything in the Eye of the World that was a major story arc for Rand's development has been cut.  Or replaced with something else entirely.

 

[Gothic Flame]

8 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

It was a major story arc for Rand's deveopment.  I highly doubt they will cut it.  They need it to further the storyline.  

What storyline? This isn't Jordan's story anymore. This is Rafe's. And no one could have predicted how badly things have diverged...

What next? Complaints about characterization? 

Where've you been for 8 episodes?

[EmreY]

7 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

What storyline? This isn't Jordan's story anymore. This is Rafe's. And no one could have predicted how badly things have diverged...

What next? Complaints about characterization? 

Where've you been for 8 episodes?

 

Watching the same series as you.  Not coming to the same conclusions as you.

 

Spank me.

[Gothic Flame]

3 hours ago, EmreY said:

Spank me.

Only if you're a brown M&M. ?

[ArrylT]

On 1/19/2022 at 11:56 AM, Deviations said:

This intimated that Moraine is the only blue out in the field so to speak.  Ridiculous.

 

 

 

*shrugs*  That is akin to all the people who dislike the show putting all the blame on Rafe.  We all know the show has hundreds of employees, and yet time and time all the fault is given to Rafe.  And just like Rafe, Moiraine has a higher boss to answer to.

 

We know, thanks to WoT Wiki that the Blue Ajah has around 100 members  - one of the smallest Ajahs -  many of whom likely have to stay at Tar Valon - so it is not like the Blue Ajah has dozens of sisters spread out -  I wouldnt be surprised if maybe 60-65 of the Ajah was out at any given time at most.  Also according to wiki 22 members of the Blue were Black Ajah and therefore would have no reason to give warning..   And that is assuming the show decides to keep the same # of Aes Sedai (I think there were around 1200?) rather than a smaller number.

 

Regardless, I dont see why an Aes Sedai would suddenly start start listing names of Blue Ajah members to put blame onto when her goal was to get the target off her back and onto Moiraines.  All shes is doing is giving individual Blue Ajah members  reason or more reason to be antagonistic towards her - and it is quite conceivable plenty of Sisters would feel resentment or jealousy to Moiraines free rein so giving the focal point of blame to Moiraine can be done without overtly attacking the Ajah as a whole - the ajah which Siuan came from - sort of like Moiraine is a "rogue" Blue Ajah that needs to be controlled.

 

In the end, I took it as Liandrin saying that Moiraine was too busy doing her own thing without supervision to actually do what is expected of the Blue Ajah - much like General Lee felt about General Stuart for failing to  provide warning before Gettysburg.  Was it completely Stuarts fault? Doubtful - but was it partially and therefore he was the easy target to deflect blame onto - yes.   But we all see things differently.

[ArrylT]

On 1/19/2022 at 11:56 AM, Deviations said:

This intimated that Moraine is the only blue out in the field so to speak.  Ridiculous.

 

 

 

Sorry for the unintentional duplicate post - please delete at leisure.

Edited January 23, 2022 by ArrylT
double post please delete

[Cauthonfan4]

36 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

We all know the show has hundreds of employees, and yet time and time all the fault is given to Rafe.  And just like Rafe, Moiraine has a higher boss to answer to.

But Rafe was the one who said that he wanted to change the story and make a bunch of changes that would piss off the book fans.

 

So are we to assume that Rafe is just taking the fall for his boss by saying stuff like that?

[ilovezam]

46 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

*shrugs*  That is akin to all the people who dislike the show putting all the blame on Rafe.  We all know the show has hundreds of employees, and yet time and time all the fault is given to Rafe.  And just like Rafe, Moiraine has a higher boss to answer to.

 

Wait so I'm guessing you actually agree that Liandrin's accusations were stupid? Because you don't sound like you approve of the Rafe-blaming in that analogy of yours. 

 

At any rate, a showrunner has creative control of a production. A showrunner develops the storylines, writes the scripts, has control of who's in the writer's room, etc. I'm sure the exec's notes influenced him one way or another, but Rafe is largely in charge of what we end up seeing, and he says what he says in the interviews by his own volition (Rand not main character, need to update RJ to 2021 feminism, show was always going to alienate readers, etc)

 

Blaming Moiraine for not reporting about Logain when she's not even in the same general direction is in a completely different wheelhouse. Liandrin's plan was stupid, and more importantly, written poorly. Siuan and Moiraine could have easily deflected her BS with any number of counterarguments, but yet the show portrayed it as though they were snared in a trap.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by ilovezam

[Lethira the second]

3 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

*shrugs*  That is akin to all the people who dislike the show putting all the blame on Rafe.  We all know the show has hundreds of employees, and yet time and time all the fault is given to Rafe.  And just like Rafe, Moiraine has a higher boss to answer to.

 

Nope, buck stops with Rafe. That's the role of the showrunner.  

[ArrylT]

Which is the point being made.   Always convenient to have a fall guy - which in this case was going to be Liandrin or Moiraine.   And as we saw it was schemed between Moiraine & Siuan to let Moiraine take the exile and still allow her free rein to continue.   Therefore it is a moot point whether not Liandrin or Moiraine or anyone had mentioned any other names - the target was going to be on one back.    

[Andra]

2 hours ago, ArrylT said:

Which is the point being made.   Always convenient to have a fall guy - which in this case was going to be Liandrin or Moiraine.   And as we saw it was schemed between Moiraine & Siuan to let Moiraine take the exile and still allow her free rein to continue.   Therefore it is a moot point whether not Liandrin or Moiraine or anyone had mentioned any other names - the target was going to be on one back.    

 

It's not the outcome in the show of Liandrin's "charges" that is the problem.  It's the fact that anyone in the Hall gave them the time of day.  Much less treat them like an inescapable trap.

 

The charges were patently BS on their face, and in the Tower RJ describes, would have gotten Liandrin disciplined for even bringing them up in the Hall.

 

According to Tower rules, the Sister who is given command has complete responsibility.  Liandrin (as a Red) had command over Logain's capture and treatment.  Also according to Tower rules, any Sister's business is her own, unless specifically ordered to do something.  Trying to blame Moiraine for her own mission's errors would have earned Liandrin a public penance.  Sticking her nose into Moiraine's private affairs would possibly have earned her a private one.

 

Pretending an individual Blue (not a Sitter or the head of an Ajah) was responsible for a failure that is EXPLICITLY the job of the Red (locating male channelers and False Dragons), should have gotten her laughed out of the Hall by every single member - including her own Sitters.

[Ryrin]

On 1/19/2022 at 6:09 AM, ilovezam said:

Without even going into whether it's a good change or not, it was executed laughably poorly. They were openly weeping in full sight of the Hall while Moiraine was given a "punishment" that allowed her to continue doing her stuff outside of the Tower, which was what Liandrin used to get her into trouble in the first place. Anyone with half a brain would have immediately called out on it, especially given the Aes Sedai's propensity to bicker.

 

There were also so many easy ways to get out of the "pressure" put up by Liandrin. It was framed as though there was some political masterclass going on there with the characters, but it was in fact written more like an episode of Mean Girls than anything else. 

 

Liandrin: Her purpose - the purpose of all Blues, is to gather secrets and discover danger before it strikes at the heart of us, before it strikes at you, Mother. But Trollocs invaded from the west, and Logain's army swelled from the south without even a warning from Moiraine. Why?

 

Moiraine: Yo. I was following rumours of ta'veren (may as well make that one-liner relevant again) and brought back the most powerful channeller in a thousand years, without whom all of us, you included, would have been dead. I suspected that she might have potential but she had no training and could not channel as far as I knew then. She would be a great asset under the Tower, instead of a dangerous wilder. In the two years since I left, I travelled from Tear to the Two Rivers and many towns in between. Neither of which are in the same general direction as Ghaeldan or "the west". Also, Logain and his army sounds like Red Ajah business, where were the warnings from you lot?

 

FIN

 

 

 

 

Two years? Wasn’t it 20?

[Andra]

18 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

Two years? Wasn’t it 20?

In the show, I believe she said she had been away from the Tower for two years.

 

The search had been going on for twenty, but she wasn't away the entire time.

[ilovezam]

2 hours ago, Andra said:

It's not the outcome in the show of Liandrin's "charges" that is the problem.  It's the fact that anyone in the Hall gave them the time of day.  Much less treat them like an inescapable trap.

 

The charges were patently BS on their face, and in the Tower RJ describes, would have gotten Liandrin disciplined for even bringing them up in the Hall.

 

According to Tower rules, the Sister who is given command has complete responsibility.  Liandrin (as a Red) had command over Logain's capture and treatment.  Also according to Tower rules, any Sister's business is her own, unless specifically ordered to do something.  Trying to blame Moiraine for her own mission's errors would have earned Liandrin a public penance.  Sticking her nose into Moiraine's private affairs would possibly have earned her a private one.

 

Pretending an individual Blue (not a Sitter or the head of an Ajah) was responsible for a failure that is EXPLICITLY the job of the Red (locating male channelers and False Dragons), should have gotten her laughed out of the Hall by every single member - including her own Sitters.

Exactly! It also took place at a time before Moiraine and Siuan reunited at the loveshack to conspire. If anything, the fact that Moiraine even got told off at all as a result of such utterly nonsensical accusations should raise suspicion among the Aes Sedai that Siuan was conspiring with Liandrin!

 

25 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

Two years? Wasn’t it 20?

Siuan asks about the two years since Moiraine left, and Liandrin's accusations were all about extremely recent events. Here's an excerpt:

Quote

S:

Moiraine Sedai. You left the Tower two years ago. Where have you traveled?

 

M:

From Tear to the Two Rivers. And many towns between.

 

S:
What is the purpose of your travels?

 

M:

Forgive me, Mother, I cannot say. (LOL) 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by ilovezam

[Andra]

On 1/19/2022 at 12:10 PM, Lethira the second said:

Get on board folks, show Moiraine is omnipresent!

I think I figured it out.

Given the fact that after Shadar Logoth when Moiraine needed Healing, Lan located Liandrin's goup "three hours to the southwest," it's now clear.  In the entire two years she was out of the Tower searching, Moiraine was never more than a day's ride from anything that happened anywhere.

 

Of course she should have known all those things and gotten word to the Tower.

?

Edited January 24, 2022 by Andra

[critchy]

I found it odd that they would use the oath rod to enforce a punishment. That's not what they usually use it for. And without a trial.

 

And it's bizarre that none of the AS noticed Moiraine changing the words. 

 

The whole scene was jarring. 

[Nik]

Moiraine was speaking at a distinctly lower volume when she said the part of the oath that was different. They couldn't make it too low because they wanted us (the viewers) to actually hear it clearly on our TVs. But the intent I think was that she purposely spoke lower to hide that part of her oath.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Nik said:

Moiraine was speaking at a distinctly lower volume when she said the part of the oath that was different. They couldn't make it too low because they wanted us (the viewers) to actually hear it clearly on our TVs. But the intent I think was that she purposely spoke lower to hide that part of her oath.

And no one thought to call her on it.  Thought Aes Sedai liked i's dotted and t's crossed...

[nsmallw]

 Rafe Judkins has said that he saw the whole oath rod exchange as wedding vows between Moraine and Siuan. It had nothing to do with plot, magical rules etc. 

 

Another  change that isn't necessary to tell the story of the books and one that will reverberate down throughout all future seasons making things far more difficult.

[Mailman]

Unless they where accusing Moiraine of being black ajah the oath rod was completely unnecessary as any plain spoken oath would have held due to the existing oath to speak the truth.

 

Terrible scene

[Skipp]

7 hours ago, nsmallw said:

 Rafe Judkins has said that he saw the whole oath rod exchange as wedding vows between Moraine and Siuan. It had nothing to do with plot, magical rules etc. 

 

Another  change that isn't necessary to tell the story of the books and one that will reverberate down throughout all future seasons making things far more difficult.

 

The scene showed the audience that the oaths Moiraine was talking about were actual magically binding oaths. 

 

I appreciate that they are expanding upon the Moiraine and Suian stuff.  We'll see how it ripples onto other seasons.

 

 

[Nik]

11 hours ago, DojoToad said:

And no one thought to call her on it.  Thought Aes Sedai liked i's dotted and t's crossed...

 

Everyone believes Siuan hates her guts. They have zero reason to suspect they're plotting together. If she did something sneaky, they expect Siuan to call her on it because even if they can't hear, she certainly can. They probably chalked it up to emotion/reluctance/shame.

 

9 hours ago, nsmallw said:

 Rafe Judkins has said that he saw the whole oath rod exchange as wedding vows between Moraine and Siuan. It had nothing to do with plot, magical rules etc. 

 

Another  change that isn't necessary to tell the story of the books and one that will reverberate down throughout all future seasons making things far more difficult.

 

Scenes can be more than one thing. In fact, they HAVE to. If a scene doesn't accomplish multiple things, it gets cut or condensed with something else because there's no time.

 

In this case, the oath scene can be:

1) Setup for future plotlines 

2) A way to demonstrate (show, not tell) how the oaths work to non-readers

3) An emotional moment to deepen characterization and make viewers connect to and care about Siuan and Moiraine even more

4) An upping of the stakes to build tension for the future of their relationship

5) A nice bit of representation for those who will feel seen by it.

 

I would also posit that we don't know how it will impact future events yet because we don't know where they're going with this, so there's no way of knowing if it will make things more difficult, or instead serve the story the show is trying to tell. But it seems logical to me that if they did this, it's because they have plans for it to matter down the road. We don't know what those plans are, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

8 hours ago, Mailman said:

Unless they where accusing Moiraine of being black ajah the oath rod was completely unnecessary as any plain spoken oath would have held due to the existing oath to speak the truth.

 

Terrible scene

 

Non-readers don't know that. They have no reason to trust Moiraine when she says the oaths are binding. She could be lying about it all. Therefore another oath on top of it could also be broken if we're not sure the first oath truly is binding the way she says it it. And non-readers also don't know that the first oath affects all future oaths this way.

 

What they did was show us, visually and without a doubt, that the oaths ARE binding and that Moiraine truly can't come back. And also can't lie, which is important, because I bet you we catch an Aes Sedai in a lie in season 2 it will be a hint to the Black Ajah plot. If we hadn't ascertained without a doubt that the first oath is binding, seeing an AS lie later could lead non-readers to conclude the oaths aren't truly binding after all, rather than the conclusion we want, which is that this AS is somehow not bound by the first oath.