How different is too different?

[Katherine]

37 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

Yes, it had a good premiere.

But demand decreased each week after that first three-episode release.

 

Whether that trend was alarming enough for Amazon to take note and step in to address any of the concerns mentioned here and elsewhere?  WAFO. ?

Hadn't seen this. The drop in week-to-week demand should be alarming to everyone who wants to see this show continue.  

[WhiteVeils]

This is not a huge dropoff.  There's a big dropoff from week 1, but that was 3 episodes at once so it would obviously have more minutes viewed. Hawkeye included for comparison.

[Andra]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

This is not a huge dropoff.  There's a big dropoff from week 1, but that was 3 episodes at once so it would obviously have more minutes viewed. Hawkeye included for comparison.

That's interesting.

It doesn't match what I thought I had seen, which continued dropping through the final episode.  I'll have to see if I can find the link, which I know wasn't to a Twitter page.

 

Was Hawkeye also a three-episode premiere?  I haven't heard.

[WhiteVeils]

From https://www.nielsen.com/us/en/top-ten/?utm_campaign=Nielsen_Audience_Measurement&utm_id=NLSN_01_27_2022&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=organic_social

 

For the most recent week of ratings provided (1/3/22-1/9/22) Wheel of Time is still the 8th watched show with 300 million minutes viewed across 8 episodes.  Considering the show was already finished, and it's only 8 episodes, that's not that huge a dropoff.  Note that Hawkeye, which also had 8 episodes and premiered later, doesn't even make top 10.

 

[Pukel-man]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Ratings:

From this thread:

For the full year 2021, #TheWheelofTime had the strongest series debut (greatest avg demand in the first 30 days) of any show in the US across all platforms. It was the most in-demand series across all platforms worldwide during its first eight days of availability.
 

 

I think it's probably OK. I hope.

From that linked ranking, interesting that Shadow & Bone is down at the bottom. Artistically, I ranked that show MUCH higher than WoT. The writing was definitely different from the books, but it was very solid, and the plot & dialogue were MUCH better than WoT. The acting on S&B was also outstanding, but I can't fault WoT actors for not having much to work with.

[Andra]

@whiteveils

So I think I found the source I had originally looked at.  It doesn't actually disagree with that, I had just misunderstood when it was posted.

 

The drop-off continued through episode 7/week 5, then picked up for episode 8/week 6.  Given the fact that those numbers don't tell you which episode(s) got the viewing minutes, the implication was that some substantial part of the audience that week waited until the last episode dropped, then binged the whole season.  And probably the same thing for week 7.

Of course, everything after that was either bingers or re-watchers.

 

Something else I've seen reported shows that after the week of the 9th, it dropped out of the top 20.  Though their weeks appear to be out of sync with Nielson's, with them showing your numbers (and Nielson's) as being the week ending Jan. 2 rather than Jan. 9.  And the week of 1/3-1/9 showing it out of the top 20.

#CobraKai , #Encanto and #TheWitcher are This Weeks Nielsen Top 20 Streaming Chart *Updated 3rd February 2022* (spoilertv.com)

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

The series the previous week had 300 minutes. The top 20 in this list (which is different, and includes movies as well as shows and is a different scale) has a bottom # of minutes at #20 of 344. It doesn't imply # of minutes changed, just that you'e doing a different range to compare to in this article.
Now, of course the # of minutes would drop off over time...the whole series is out, and not that long. Which is why I, for one, have advocated not making too many conclusions about viewership until all the #'s are out, which they are only just starting to be.  Nothing, however, so far implies that it is doing worse than expected. Indeed, it may be doing a lot better than expected when it was put out. And we have yet to see international returns, of course. Internationally, the style choices for WOT are more appealing than I think they may be in the US, considering how much international fantasy fiction I've watched.

We'll see when we hear about renewals for S3. Which will probably be around when they're announcing S2 dates.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

The series the previous week had 300 minutes. The top 20 in this list (which is different, and includes movies as well as shows and is a different scale) has a bottom # of minutes at #20 of 344. It doesn't imply # of minutes changed, just that you'e doing a different range to compare to in this article.
Now, of course the # of minutes would drop off over time...the whole series is out, and not that long. Which is why I, for one, have advocated not making too many conclusions about viewership until all the #'s are out, which they are only just starting to be.  Nothing, however, so far implies that it is doing worse than expected. Indeed, it may be doing a lot better than expected when it was put out. And we have yet to see international returns, of course. Internationally, the style choices for WOT are more appealing than I think they may be in the US, considering how much international fantasy fiction I've watched.

We'll see when we hear about renewals for S3. Which will probably be around when they're announcing S2 dates.

That was one of the reasons I was hesitant to include that, since it didn't look like an apples-to-apples comparison.

But there are some valid comparisons within it.

 

The Witcher had been complete for four weeks by that list, and was getting quite a bit more streaming minutes per episode than WOT.  The week before, when both of them are on the list, Witcher was at 114 million minutes/episode, while WOT was at 78.75.  And Hawkeye was at almost 90.

 

I think the thing to be concerned about is that its closest comparisons (Hawkeye, Witcher) dropped off less during the season or after the bulk release than WOT has.

 

Of course, it could be worse.  Foundation apparently never made the top-20 list at all.  But at least they also got renewed.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Andra

[Terry05]

On 2/3/2022 at 2:59 AM, Cauthonfan4 said:

considering the fact that we literally had lots of EU material out there for Star Wars as is, this sounds like Disney made themselves a problem they didn't need to create, simply by throwing lots of source material out. Kind of like Rafe and Company.

 

 

On 2/3/2022 at 3:11 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I didn't mind them saying they were going to make their own story, but when they decide to go down that route they should have planned it out properly, for the sequel trilogy at the very least. Doing it like they did, it just made all of us pretty wistful about losing out on seeing the EU on screen. Plus the fact they link into Rebels and Clone Wars etc., it seemed a pretty strange decision to throw it all out anyways. 

 

Hopefully we'll see Thrawn at some point. The Timothy Zahn books were my intro to the EU, love them

I know this is off topic but I'll be goddamned if I'm going to miss a chance to lament the loss of the SW EU! And I refuse to bow to the Mouse and refer to it as "Legends"

 

So many good books (with a smattering of terrible - I'm looking at you Fate of the Jedi series)!

 

Personally, I don't think Shadows of the Empire can be topped - absolutely loved it. I was also a massive fan of the New Jedi Order series. X-Wing series was awesome.

[SingleMort]

5 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

This is not a huge dropoff.  There's a big dropoff from week 1, but that was 3 episodes at once so it would obviously have more minutes viewed. Hawkeye included for comparison.

Might be useful to keep a note of this. I'd be curious to see how it compares with the figures for season 2 when it comes out. 

[notpropaganda73]

I find trying to quantify the ratings and viewing minutes from streaming really difficult, and to be honest doesn't take into account a myriad of factors. Hawkeye maybe suffers because people don't want to pay for Disney+, Wheel of Time maybe because people don't want to pay for Prime - or more likely, they don't want to deal with the awful user experience of Prime Video (only half joking).

 

I think all the comparisons with Hawkeye are interesting but should also serve as a bit of a warning for WoT and Amazon in general to be honest. One of the tweets in that thread WV shared stated it was impressive that WoT beat out Hawkeye in terms of minutes streamed or whatever the metric was, as Hawkeye has such a huge ready-made audience. But I would venture that the fact there is such a massive MCU following and Hawkeye wasn't a smash hit would indicate that you still need a good show, you can't just churn out MCU content and expect it to be a hit. (Take note re: LotR Amazon). So while there's a built-in WoT audience, it can't be reliant on that and I personally wonder whether comparing WoT's performance against the worst of all the Marvel streaming shows so far is the good sign that it may seem initially.

 

Fwiw I think WoT S1 is better than Hawkeye, which was a well made show (of course it would be) but had sort of a lost feel to it without much thrust to the story imo. The good bits were pretty good, but for the most part I was pretty bored by it. But WoT S1 falls well well below Wandavision and Loki, and a bit behind Falcon + Winter Soldier, which was also very uneven but had some truly sensational episodes and moments that elevated it. 

[Katherine]

FWIW I watched REACHER on Amazon last night which is based on a novel. It was almost  scene for scene adaptation, and it was AWESOME. ALso has a 96%  audience score with an 82% critics score. 

 

Lesson? Stick to the damn source material!

 

 

[Andra]

5 hours ago, Katherine said:

FWIW I watched REACHER on Amazon last night which is based on a novel. It was almost  scene for scene adaptation, and it was AWESOME. ALso has a 96%  audience score with an 82% critics score. 

 

Lesson? Stick to the damn source material!

 

 

This!

[wastingtime]

On 2/5/2022 at 7:52 AM, Katherine said:

FWIW I watched REACHER on Amazon last night which is based on a novel. It was almost  scene for scene adaptation, and it was AWESOME. ALso has a 96%  audience score with an 82% critics score. 

 

Lesson? Stick to the damn source material!

 

 

Ideally yes, but many things would make the Reacher novels much simpler to translate to screen faithfully than the WOT novels, surely? 

[Cauthonfan4]

3 minutes ago, wastingtime said:

but many things would make the Reacher novels much simpler to translate to screen faithfully than the WOT novels, surely

Maybe. But there is a difference between making necessary changes due to adapting and making unnecessary changes for no reason.

Absolutely no one I have talked too or seen post asked for an Absolutely 100% book to TV show faithful adaptation. We knew stuff would need to be trimmed and made clearer, etc. But there was a lot of completely unnecessary changes made and not for the better either.

[wastingtime]

14 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Maybe. But there is a difference between making necessary changes due to adapting and making unnecessary changes for no reason.

Absolutely no one I have talked too or seen post asked for an Absolutely 100% book to TV show faithful adaptation. We knew stuff would need to be trimmed and made clearer, etc. But there was a lot of completely unnecessary changes made and not for the better either.

Yep I 99% agree. I think one key issue is that there is literally so much depth in the series (and so much diversity of the fan base) that any possible change/cut/streamline etc made - or not made - by the producers will be taken differently by almost each different viewer. Some people evidently hate many of them, some people actually like some of them, some people are ambivalent, hopeful, uninvested or masochistic enough that they'll tolerate most of them even if they often scratch their heads and just wonder 'why?' 1/2 a dozen times an episode.

I've personally successfully managed to enjoy the show more on second viewing than first, despite still definitely agreeing lots of changes both major and minor seem pointless, and agreeing that from a screen/viewing perspective (regardless of source material) some aspects of the storytelling have been ham-fisted.

I'm realising I don't - and probably never did - have the depth of emotional connection to Jordan's original world/characters that a lot of other people evidently do, but for me (so far at least) the answer to "How different is too different?" is that I haven't reached that point yet.

I'm looking forward to Season 2, hopeful that they fix stuff from a TV point of view if not a 'canon' point of view, still not overly confident that Rafe has the skills or experience to deliver a truly compelling (Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Expanse, first 1/2 GOT etc) viewing experience, but also figuring it will get better.

Maybe I'm just too undemanding as a television watcher though???

Also, I can't remember which thread we're in at the moment, but if it is the Mat one (and given your screen handle) - I feel for all the people who loved him as-is in the books. I don't buy that the changes to his backstory made by Rafe & co were necessary either, but I do figure they are setting him up for a redemption arc. It might even work out okay too.

 

[Gothic Flame]

The very idea of making an effort to "enjoy" a show seems a bit contradictory to me.

[Katherine]

On 2/5/2022 at 6:53 PM, wastingtime said:

Ideally yes, but many things would make the Reacher novels much simpler to translate to screen faithfully than the WOT novels, surely? 

 

100% easier to adapt. No need for CGI, no complicated magic system etc. 

 

 

[Cauthonfan4]

1 hour ago, Katherine said:

100% easier to adapt. No need for CGI, no complicated magic system etc

No showrunner making unnecessary changes just because they want too

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

No showrunner making unnecessary changes just because they want too

Or even more - a showrunner that learned from negative response to the changes in the original movie, and changed them back.

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 2/4/2022 at 3:22 PM, Katherine said:

FWIW I watched REACHER on Amazon last night which is based on a novel. It was almost  scene for scene adaptation, and it was AWESOME. ALso has a 96%  audience score with an 82% critics score. 

 

Lesson? Stick to the damn source material!

 

 

 I'll have to go watch Reacher.  I've read several of the books and loved them.  Sometimes literature doesn't have to be very deep to be enjoyable. 

 

This should hopefully be a lesson for Amazon.  Stay at least somewhat close to the source and fans will appreciate it. 

[Chadouken]

On 2/2/2022 at 10:02 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

I think TLJ did a fantastic job with Luke. I loved his ending as well, it felt peak Jedi to me, like something (OT) Yoda would do.

 

I thought Luke projecting himself across the galaxy as a physical manifestation was the absolute coolest use of the Force I'd ever seen.  It was like he metaphorically "Skywalked" across the galaxy, and fulfilled his namesake.

[nsmallw]

The ending of The Eye of the World in the books is widely considered weak and the show attempted to do the ending better. Beyond whether or not you believe the ending in both book and tv show is good or bad.

 

My question is how would YOU have changed the ending to the book if you were the writing it?

I don't see that this question has been discussed. If I'm in error please let direct me to the correct thread. 

[Juan Farstrider]

8 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

The ending of The Eye of the World in the books is widely considered weak and the show attempted to do the ending better. Beyond whether or not you believe the ending in both book and tv show is good or bad.

 

My question is how would YOU have changed the ending to the book if you were the writing it?

I don't see that this question has been discussed. If I'm in error please let direct me to the correct thread. 

I think you "don't see that this question has been discussed" because it would be a separate topic by itself. I never thought about it, knowing I had to get on to the next book. I will think, slowly, about it. 

[Andra]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:50 PM, Juan Farstrider said:

I think you "don't see that this question has been discussed" because it would be a separate topic by itself. I never thought about it, knowing I had to get on to the next book. I will think, slowly, about it. 

Given the length of the first two books, and the fact that they both came out in the same year, I don't think the ending of the first can really be considered an ending (and no, that's not a play on "there are no endings to ...").  Think of it rather as the middle of a single longer book.

 

Jordan certainly didn't write it like he thought of it as the end of one story and the beginning of another.  It was more like just a trip to the kitchen during the commercial break, then right back into it.