S1E8: The Eye of the World v2

[Ralph]

33 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

First those are not shrapnel. Those are magic and they can make it work however they want. Morraine has to dance for a minute to run the spell, Egwene just touches Nyn and heals her, Nyn explode with power. They do what they want with magic. And even with the "shrapnel" they could make him anticipate the thing and act before it happened. He was a warder for years, it would not be strange if he knows the thing.

 

Second I've clearly shown that they are consistent with showing Lan as unable to bodyguard Morraine. Scene after scene - he fails and this is not an accident. This is what they wanted to show us. They are CHANGING things from the books to show us that Lan is unable to bodyguard Morraine like they did in ep. 1.

 

Of course the show is a mess (just look at magic system) so it is possible as KakitaOCU suggests that they just really do not care about that, that he is a collateral damage. But considering how consistent they are with this - I suspect that this "clumsy Lan" is intentional.

 

Doesn't really matter considering other changes to the show.... sorry for the rant, I will try to not go back to this anymore ?

 

Do you understand the magic in the books? Since you are only part way through EotW, I believe. 

 

I don't think there was any explanation for anything at that stage. 

 

For example, Moiraine does various acts of magic, with no explanation. We know healing in EF and the false trail and the fog take a lot of energy, but no real explanation. And Nynaeve heals Egwene without any idea of what she has done

Edited January 3, 2022 by Ralph

[Guest Testeria]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Do you understand the magic in the books? Since you are only part way through EotW, I believe.

 

Yes, there is very little so far in the book. I believe to grasp the basics mostly from wiki pages and many posts and videos stating what is wrong with magic in the show...

 

I don't think I should really press this matter anymore. I was just curious because I'm confused how people do not see what I see ? I mean - Cavill in the Witcher seems to be a better book Lan then the Lan from the show. But obviously it is just my perspective and I should really stop posting about that here, sorry. I just really like the character in the book and I feel sad he is not in the show, that is all.

[Gothic Flame]

2 hours ago, Testeria said:

 

I don't think I should really press this matter anymore. I was just curious because I'm confused how people do not see what I see ? I mean - Cavill in the Witcher seems to be a better book Lan then the Lan from the show. But obviously it is just my perspective and I should really stop posting about that here, sorry. I just really like the character in the book and I feel sad he is not in the show, that is all.

At this point I want Cavill to take over the role as Lan. (That one fighting sequence in the marketplace sold me) Cavill has that...presence that Henney just doesn't have.

[fra85uk]

I think Henney is fine as show-Lan but he basically never had the opportunity to shine.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

Again I receive the Bela reaction. What does this mean, friends? 

[Elendir]

The problem is not in the actor but in the script.

 

Every single failure of Lan is easy to explain and does not harm its character in any way. They become a problem as an interdependent chain of failures. It's about building a Lan character. Give him some bad ass moments to show what a good fighter he is and some failures to emphasize being human. But if you look at what they built through the series as a Lan character ... failure after failure. This is not a good character creation.

[Agramil]

12 hours ago, Skipp said:

There is plenty of things in this show that could be considered a mess.  Lan not being able to stop shrapnel from hitting Moiraine isn't one of them.

I have to agree with @Testeria here. No, Lan not being able to protect Moiraine in that situation in itself is not a problem.

 

But Lan and Moiraine getting killed (if not for Nynaeve) is of course a blow to both Lan and Moiraines general competence, in comparison to the books. Many smaller things like this (Lan getting a blade to his neck etc.) risk undermining the ability and and skill of characters, and messes up power levels of characters and creatures. E.g. Tam not managing one trolloc, while Thom seemingly can survive one Myrdraal in an enclosed space (though we don’t know yet what the show will do exactly there). I thought the Emonds Field fight scene in episode 1 was great and really well made, but after that we haven’t really seen Lan be much useful.  

 

On a similar note, warders and Aes Sedai seems to be really poor tacticians in the show, unable to choose a good defensive position for their camp and unable to scout/keep watch. (Compare this to the Salidar camp in the books which is completely impossible to even approach unseen, as far as I remember.)

Shows usually mess up basic battle tactics though, GoT frequently did the same. It’s still annoying and takes me out of the world. Tactical brilliance is one of my favorite things in the books (Rodel Ituralde, Mat). I really hope they don't ignore that part in the show, or at least not totally screw it up.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Agramil

[Deviations]

Late add to the party here.  I watched the season finale on time but holiday plans and some time off in Northern Minnesota allowed me a bit of peace and quiet at the expense of sharing my thoughts here.

 

There are so many things I was disappointed in.....  The lost horn of valere under a chair and half the town of Fal Dara knows where it is?  So many threads tied to the horn being missing.  How does Faile enter the picture?  

 

Aglemar gets skewered as an individual combatant?  Wasn't he one of the great captains?  He put down his baton didn't he?

 

I honestly don't care that Loial got the shiv.  He's been useless in this series except for magically finding people in Tar Valon.

 

Perrin is now following the way of the leaf and continues to be useless.

 

More useless Lan.  Why would the showrunners even keep him in the story?  His romance with Nynaeve in the books is a minor plotline anyhow (all things considered).  The Nynaeve they've created in the series clearly doesn't need him.

 

Rand is gifted a sangreal just in time for a dream sequence and a 13 second fight with Ishy.  Moraine just happens to have one with her on this trip.  Something incredibly rare.  He doesn't have to earn anything.  His only 'win' is realizing that Egwene doesn't want to be a housewife.

 

Bah....

 

 

 

[ilovezam]

Can't stop agonizing about how they chose to portray the Breaking of the World. The notion that Lews Therin was testosterone-addled thrill-seeker who just wanted to do something risky and unprecedented that "serves only (his) pride". Latra (who is now his superior in this iteration) chides him, predicting exactly what would go wrong, asking him to stop acting like he is invincible.

 

There's no desperation in this conversation - no necessity. LTT makes no attempt to convey anything of the sort. The world was presented as in a state of perfect, idyllic peace. The Dark One "has never been caged" in this show universe, and the audience is told that LTT has no need to do anything, except to stroke his ego. Not even a one-liner rebuttal to hint at the contrary. Something like "If we do nothing all will be lost!" would have given book readers the flavour necessary to maintain what they know is canonical without telling the full story to new audiences.

 

Truly don't understand why they would ever go in this direction.

[KakitaOCU]

3 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

At this point I want Cavill to take over the role as Lan. (That one fighting sequence in the marketplace sold me) Cavill has that...presence that Henney just doesn't have.

 

It's interesting that you contrast Lan against that scene specifically.

That scene is hilariously bad as a living action scene.  (Assuming you mean first episode).  The Crossbow gets off one shot when at minimum there should have been two, the opponents all politely move in one at a time with the camera carefully off them so you don't have to watch them wait patiently in line to die.  The two with Shields hold their shields well behind them never even trying to use them.

Honestly, it's a very sad scene that almost yanked me out of the episode at the time.  Not because Calvil was bad but because there's no situation where 6 armed people and an archer go get killed one at a time

[Lethira the second]

I'd peg that with the scene with Legolas surfing down the steps firing arrows. 

 

Yes, you are correct the fight (as a fight scene) was totally unrealistic.  It's almost as fanciful as one of the great captains getting pinned to the wall with a spear sailing through an arrow slit or a single Aes Sedai with no angreal managing to rip a building to pieces without burning out.  

 

I don't watch a great deal of TV but I've yet to see a fight scene in a fantasy show that is realistic.  With the possible exception of Spartacus -given the nature of the material there are a few in seasons 0 and 1 the feel authentic.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Lethira the second

[ArrylT]

2 hours ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Again I receive the Bela reaction. What does this mean, friends? 

 

I use the Bela symbol as a form of creation.   IE if I think someone has created a theory, or sparked an idea or such.   Or when referring to Bela (or horses) or RJ (or other people who were involved in creating the books/show) etc.   

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

The notion that Lews Therin was testosterone-addled thrill-seeker who just wanted to do something risky and unprecedented that "serves only (his) pride". Latra (who is now his superior in this iteration) chides him, predicting exactly what would go wrong, asking him to stop acting like he is invincible.

Don't forget all the people on this forum who saw this coming from the teaser trailer where Moiraine mentions that the arrogance of men caused the Breaking of the World. We were discarded and told that we were being hasty and that this was simply a flawed, unreliable Aes Sedai narrative. Fast forward to episode 8 and it turns out that Rafe and co. are exactly who they told us they were from the very beginning. 

[Gothic Flame]

24 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

I'd peg that with the scene with Legolas surfing down the steps firing arrows. 

It's about "presence." Cavill had that look on his face that said "I'm going to wreck your world." And one look at that face coming at me would have had me turning to the guy next to; "I think I left the stove on. I'll be right back...tomorrow."

[RextheDog]

27 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

It's almost as fanciful as one of the great captains getting pinned to the wall with a spear sailing through an arrow slit

 

and yet, Richard the first died by a lone arrow hitting his shoulder, which in turn became gangreen,  fired by a boy....during a seige no less...not even a battyle.

 

truth is, some of the great generals and kings did die in battle. 

 

theres also an inkling feeling i have that he didnt die, but thats by the by, he did get pinned by an infantry mans spear/arrow..... but as shown above, thats really not that fanciful.

 

 

[Lethira the second]

4 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

It's about "presence." Cavill had that look on his face that said "I'm going to wreck your world." And one look at that face coming at me would have had me turning to the guy next to; "I think I left the stove on. I'll be right back...tomorrow."

 

I agree with you there, yes he had the the presence and that is something I feel WoT has failed to establish with any of their actors.  They don't 'feel' dangerous, even Lan who should be able to cut you in half with a glance.

 

As to Richard I, it's not a case of not wanting to see Generals and Kings die in battle.  It's the farcical manner in which he got killed off.  Yes, this is fantasy and we get over the top fights that make no sense. The point I was making was although that particular Witcher scene was ridiculous, it was no more so than some of the 'fights' we've seen in WoT.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Lethira the second

[EmreY]

With the amount of people recovering from near-death experiences, a certain scene in Tear is either going to be very different or lack its punch.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

Truly don't understand why they would ever go in this direction.

The reason they went in this direction is because the whole season is from Moiraine's point of view.  We, the audience, are limited mostly to what Moiraine's understanding of events is.  This is true for even events she doesn't actually know about.  Basically, they have things in this story that are not things Moiraine knows about directly, of course, but nothing that contradicts what Moiraine knows, if that makes sense.  Moiraine is "right".

Only at the very end of the season, as she picks up that piece of cuendillar, do we first get the first inkling that Moiraine is actually wrong about anything in this universe. I think we will see, very early in S2, that Moiraine is wrong about a whole ton of things.  As we bookreaders know. 

Also, already in the show, we have seen how recontextualization works in the show.  We can watch a scene...say, Rand breaking out of Dana's storeroom...and see it one way, but then, with more information, we can go back to that same scene with more knowledge and see it a different way.  As our knowledge expands, our view of history also is changing.

So how does this align for this scene?

We are shown one 'snippet' of conversation from the distant past in Episode 8 that aligned perfectly with what Moiraine knows about the Dragon and the Breaking of the World from Episode 1.   However, in later seasons, we will hear from LTT and probably other flashbacks that will recontextualize what we have seen in this scene.  LTT is being calm here, but we can find out about how he was losing later, how the world was almost ending outside this oasis that is the capital city.  That's where we find LTT was desperate.

Recontextualization work going from less knowledge to more knowledge, so it can't go the other direction. Once the fight is shown, we can't go back to sympathizing more with the Aes Sedai.  Here we start sympathizing and can expand to sympathizing with LTT.

I hope that explains.

[Lethira the second]

Recontextualisation should not be the 'go to' for story telling.  When it's used to good effect (sixth sense) it works extremely well.  What they've done so far in the show, not so much.  At some point, you need to get on with telling the story and not use it as a device constantly.

[WhiteVeils]

11 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Recontextualisation should not be the 'go to' for story telling.  When it's used to good effect (sixth sense) it works extremely well.  What they've done so far in the show, not so much.  At some point, you need to get on with telling the story and not use it as a device constantly.

I don't disagree, and hope they don't use it constantly, but I think specifically they are using it in Season 1 because I think a big part of Moiraine's plot in Season 2 is re-evaluating her ignorance and how she and Suian were tricked. I don't know how much they will use it in the end.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

On 12/30/2021 at 5:19 AM, fra85uk said:

Wow on metacritic this episode has 1.6, 6.2 on imbd. On rotten tomatoes, after the last episode, the series is down to 67%, 54% for top critics.

Now that we have the whole season, it seems preeeeeeetty obvious why Amazon only gave out the first 6 episodes for review. 

[VooDooNut]

22 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Recontextualisation should not be the 'go to' for story telling.  When it's used to good effect (sixth sense) it works extremely well.  What they've done so far in the show, not so much.  At some point, you need to get on with telling the story and not use it as a device constantly.

First, I love re-contextualisation/retroactive story-telling and I find the technique to be highly effect. Is an artist not allowed to use whichever tool they find best aids their work? Only once we see the fruits of Rafe&Co.'s intent with future seasons, and how they relate back to earlier ones, will we know how effective they have been.

 

@WhiteVeils simply seems to point out that we can't assume all the missing information in season 1 will remain unresolved until we have more information (future seasons) to see what parts of the first season are revisited/built upon.

 

This would be like reviewing the effectiveness of The Sixth Sense (ignoring/oblivious to how the ending retroactively changes the whole plot of the film) without actually knowing how the film ends or taking the ending of the film into account at all.

a.k.a. This old guy just hangs out with a kid all the time and no one ever mentions it. That's weird and creepy. The sixth Sense gets 0/10 from me...lol whut?

 

We can't speak to the effectiveness of this technique as it relates to future seasons of WOT because...we haven't seen anything beyond season 1 yet. To me, that's not love-blind fandom talk speaking, just plain old rationality (and a bit of patience).

[Ralph]

Something I still don't understand... 

 

Surely the extra emphasis on arrogance of men (if it is meant genuinely) can only increase the payback when we learn through the series that the only possible completeness is when men and women work together

 

Sorry I now I have said it before, but I just don't see how anyone can see it as misandrist by the showrunners

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

The reason they went in this direction is because the whole season is from Moiraine's point of view.  We, the audience, are limited mostly to what Moiraine's understanding of events is.  This is true for even events she doesn't actually know about.  Basically, they have things in this story that are not things Moiraine knows about directly, of course, but nothing that contradicts what Moiraine knows, if that makes sense.  Moiraine is "right".

Only at the very end of the season, as she picks up that piece of cuendillar, do we first get the first inkling that Moiraine is actually wrong about anything in this universe. I think we will see, very early in S2, that Moiraine is wrong about a whole ton of things.  As we bookreaders know. 

Also, already in the show, we have seen how recontextualization works in the show.  We can watch a scene...say, Rand breaking out of Dana's storeroom...and see it one way, but then, with more information, we can go back to that same scene with more knowledge and see it a different way.  As our knowledge expands, our view of history also is changing.

So how does this align for this scene?

We are shown one 'snippet' of conversation from the distant past in Episode 8 that aligned perfectly with what Moiraine knows about the Dragon and the Breaking of the World from Episode 1.   However, in later seasons, we will hear from LTT and probably other flashbacks that will recontextualize what we have seen in this scene.  LTT is being calm here, but we can find out about how he was losing later, how the world was almost ending outside this oasis that is the capital city.  That's where we find LTT was desperate.

Recontextualization work going from less knowledge to more knowledge, so it can't go the other direction. Once the fight is shown, we can't go back to sympathizing more with the Aes Sedai.  Here we start sympathizing and can expand to sympathizing with LTT.

I hope that explains.

I really hope you're right. But I think you might be giving the writers too much credit here.

 

I really hate the whole "they'll fix it in later episodes!" thing, and it is far far far worse to do it for the finale. Thus far, they've shown that they're leaning towards a non-binary One Power with Moiraine refusing to teach Rand to channel, and Ishamael teaching Rand to channel by "surrendering to the Power", after we've spent the entire season trying to convince ourselves that "they'll show you more of saidin/saidar and fix it in later episodes!", and in the end... they just look like they have no clue.

 

Look at the interviews of what Rafe is saying about Mat's struggle with his inherent dark side when book Mat was the least likely of the three boys to ever even flirt with the idea of moving over to the Shadow.

 

I think many of us are rightfully worried that the show might have completely missed the point that Jordan was trying to convey given how hamfisted the "male arrogance" stuff have been all season.

Edited January 3, 2022 by ilovezam

[VooDooNut]

9 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

I really hope you're right. But I think you might be giving the writers too much credit here.

I'm not the quotee, but I'll respond anyway:

 

The only credit I'm giving the writers is assuming they are not done telling the story they have planned out. Again, I think that's more a matter of patience than credit but...?‍♂️