Is the Wheel of Time Infinite?

[UOweTamASword]

I've seen this debate before, but I'm not sure in a specific thread on this topic (sorry if covered). The major question being will or can the Wheel of Time continue spinning infinitely?

 

I think this mostly comes up with regard to Elan Morin/Ishamael's theory that with approaching infinite chances and nonzero probability of success, the Dark One is bound to break the Wheel eventually. Others say that if the Wheel is infinite then there have already been infinite chances and so the probably of the DO's success must be zero. But I think Elan Morin doesn't believe that, just that his chances will approach infinity (not actually be infinite).

 

Of course, in argument for an infinite Wheel there is the quote from the books: "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time." The counterpoint to this is that line simply means there's no start/end like a circle has no start/end - not that the circle itself has existed forever.

 

An argument for a finite Wheel is the very idea of the Creator itself, who had to have created the Wheel at some point obviously. As the Companion book says, he put the DO in his prison and tied him to the Wheel. The counterpoint to this is that "time" itself did not and does not exist before/outside of the Wheel, and so discussing time beforehand is a moot point. Note: I'm not sure I totally follow how anything could exist outside of time, maybe I need a PhD in theoretical physics to explain this point better.

 

I don't really think its 100% clear either way. I guess I lean towards the idea that the Wheel is finite and will someday break, since the Wheel changes a little with every turn it seems there are variations that will inevitably mess the gears. But possibly the Creator is outside it, correcting course and ensuring it will never break?

[Spiritweaver1]

Love me these metaphysical discussions.  I don't pretend to be a WOT lore master but I did read a couple of the books a few times.  This is what I came away with.  There was a creation point courtesy of the creator.  Ever since the wheel has been spinning away weaving the pattern up to the age lace which is the pattern of the ages.  Now Ishamael and the DO tell Rand in several spots that they have faced each other many times and sometimes Ishamael is the victor and the soul of LTT turned to the DO.  Well Ishamael is a liar.  If it was the truth then they would have stopped the Wheel which is a stated goal in several spots including AMOL.  

 

In TGH Artur Hawkwing sees Rand as LTT and says that they have fought together many times and faced each other as well.   I always found that interesting.   Bottom line the WOT creation is like our universe.  There was a big bang that set everything in motion and instead of expanding forever it is spinning for ever.  If you factor in the bit about portal stones and worlds of if (multiverses) where in they say that the DO must be bound in all of them.  If he is free in one he gets free in all and presumably the wheel in each stops too.

 

Wow.  Hope this helps.  Note I have been told in the show forum that my opinions on the metaphysics don't reflect community consensus.  Take my opinion for the gold you paid for it.

[SinisterDeath]

From the creators mouth

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Nova

 

WoT universe is incompatible with ours, they play by two very different sets of rules.

 

Entropy doesn't exist in his universe... Almost like time itself is stuck in a literal loop...

 

 

 

[WheelofJuke]

IF Time is a flat disc. 

 

AND Wheel of Time is a wheel. 

 

THEN An infinitely revolving disc would therefore be 'spinning its wheels'. ?

[Spiritweaver1]

21 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

From the creators mouth

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Nova

 

WoT universe is incompatible with ours, they play by two very different sets of rules.

 

Entropy doesn't exist in his universe... Almost like time itself is stuck in a literal loop...

 

 

 

As I said I love these discussions.  Then why does he refer to a creator?  What is the role of the creator?  Looking at his comments above it would appear that WOT universe is like an old style record which is skipping.  At one point in time it was playing along but somehow it got stuck spinning around and around in the lace of ages.  This perspective makes me much more sympathetic to the DO who is apparently trying to get it unstuck so everyone can move on.     Naturally that isn't the way it is presented in the books.  The DO's plan is apparently to stop the wheel.  This implies stopping time per RJ's comments above.  Everything  just stops.  It is clear the only forsaken who grasps this is Ishamael and is clearly longing to get off the merry go round.  I figure he is tired of being an eternal loser. 

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

As I said I love these discussions.  Then why does he refer to a creator?  What is the role of the creator?  Looking at his comments above it would appear that WOT universe is like an old style record which is skipping.  At one point in time it was playing along but somehow it got stuck spinning around and around in the lace of ages.  This perspective makes me much more sympathetic to the DO who is apparently trying to get it unstuck so everyone can move on.     Naturally that isn't the way it is presented in the books.  The DO's plan is apparently to stop the wheel.  This implies stopping time per RJ's comments above.  Everything  just stops.  It is clear the only forsaken who grasps this is Ishamael and is clearly longing to get off the merry go round.  I figure he is tired of being an eternal loser. 

I kind of look at it like, the creator (RJ) in the Wheel of Time created all of time in every direction at the same instant. 
So humans always existed, there was no evolution, and all of reality is stuck in a giant 50,000(?) year ground hogs day loop.

I personally think the memory of Rand sealing the Dark One during the last battle, became legend, that eventually faded to myth, and was eventually long forgotten and changed over time to become the story that we know as "Creator Sealed the Dark One in the prison at the moment of creation".

[Agitel]

A Creator doesn't imply a beginning. Even theologians like Thomas Aquinas acknowledged the metaphysical possibility of the world having an infinite past while not denying its need for a creator. (He of course believed there was a beginning, but on faith, not on any metaphysical or philosophical necessity). A Creator in this sense is one whose act of creation spans to all existence at all points in time. Not one who just gets the ball rolling at some beginning.

 

But without mixing it with too much Christian metaphysics, a Creator doesn't imply a beginning. I go with the opening quotes of the books and what RJ says. "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time."

Edited December 23, 2021 by Agitel

[VooDooNut]

On 12/21/2021 at 2:40 PM, UOweTamASword said:

Of course, in argument for an infinite Wheel there is the quote from the books: "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time." The counterpoint to this is that line simply means there's no start/end like a circle has no start/end - not that the circle itself has existed forever.

 

An argument for a finite Wheel is the very idea of the Creator itself, who had to have created the Wheel at some point obviously. As the Companion book says, he put the DO in his prison and tied him to the Wheel. The counterpoint to this is that "time" itself did not and does not exist before/outside of the Wheel, and so discussing time beforehand is a moot point.

This right here. Time  itself may very well have been created at the moment of creation, along with everything else, and The Dark One being put in time-out ?. "Prior" to that, or "after" it has no bearing in the perceived reality of Randland. To attempt to analyze or measure any "events" outside the wheel would be an attempt to explain any part of our perceived reality without accounting for time. Basically impossible for the human mind to fathom.

[UOweTamASword]

On 12/21/2021 at 5:44 PM, Spiritweaver1 said:

Love me these metaphysical discussions.  I don't pretend to be a WOT lore master but I did read a couple of the books a few times.  This is what I came away with.  There was a creation point courtesy of the creator.  Ever since the wheel has been spinning away weaving the pattern up to the age lace which is the pattern of the ages.  Now Ishamael and the DO tell Rand in several spots that they have faced each other many times and sometimes Ishamael is the victor and the soul of LTT turned to the DO.  Well Ishamael is a liar.  If it was the truth then they would have stopped the Wheel which is a stated goal in several spots including AMOL.  

 

In TGH Artur Hawkwing sees Rand as LTT and says that they have fought together many times and faced each other as well.   I always found that interesting.   Bottom line the WOT creation is like our universe.  There was a big bang that set everything in motion and instead of expanding forever it is spinning for ever.  If you factor in the bit about portal stones and worlds of if (multiverses) where in they say that the DO must be bound in all of them.  If he is free in one he gets free in all and presumably the wheel in each stops too.

 

Wow.  Hope this helps.  Note I have been told in the show forum that my opinions on the metaphysics don't reflect community consensus.  Take my opinion for the gold you paid for it.

I have to point out that Jordan is quoted as saying that the Dragon has turned to DO’s influence before and somehow the forces of the Light were able to band together to force a “draw”.  So Elan Morin was not lying to Rand.

 

Now just what is a draw? Don’t recall that Jordan specified, but I imagine something similar to Lews Therin’s imperfect seal on the DO’s prison and a counterstroke/tainting.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 8:22 PM, SinisterDeath said:

From the creators mouth

https://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Nova

 

WoT universe is incompatible with ours, they play by two very different sets of rules.

 

Entropy doesn't exist in his universe... Almost like time itself is stuck in a literal loop...

 

 

 

See, I don’t see Jordan’s quote as saying entropy as a law of nature doesn’t exist. Only that it’s not allowed to effect the Wheel universe in a linear manner that would violate the Wheel’s circular pattern.

 

An alternate explanation would be that the Wheel has an outside force (e.g. the Creator) counteracting the effects of entropy in the Wheel where necessary. Of course, the implication here is that the Wheel is not a perfect perpetual motion machine - I’m not sure if Jordan has another quote refuting this.

[UOweTamASword]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:29 PM, Agitel said:

A Creator doesn't imply a beginning. Even theologians like Thomas Aquinas acknowledged the metaphysical possibility of the world having an infinite past while not denying its need for a creator. (He of course believed there was a beginning, but on faith, not on any metaphysical or philosophical necessity). A Creator in this sense is one whose act of creation spans to all existence at all points in time. Not one who just gets the ball rolling at some beginning.

 

But without mixing it with too much Christian metaphysics, a Creator doesn't imply a beginning. I go with the opening quotes of the books and what RJ says. "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time."

One question then is whether the DO is outside of time as well? If so, how was he placed in the Wheel? If he also spans all time, it seems like he could never be bound by it. The DO is described in the Companion as the “antithesis” to the Creator, so you might assume he has the same properties.

 

See my response below for more comments.

 

On 12/23/2021 at 4:45 PM, VooDooNut said:

This right here. Time  itself may very well have been created at the moment of creation, along with everything else, and The Dark One being put in time-out ?. "Prior" to that, or "after" it has no bearing in the perceived reality of Randland. To attempt to analyze or measure any "events" outside the wheel would be an attempt to explain any part of our perceived reality without accounting for time. Basically impossible for the human mind to fathom.

This is similar to Hawking & Hurtle saying time did not exist in the early universe. Even so events happened and they had an effect on future events. So “time” may not exist as the kind restricted by the space-time continuum. - however time as in a sequence of events with their own cause and effect may be unavoidable.

 

I think the question the still remains open as to whether time’s beginning may someday come to an end.

 

And frankly, I prefer it that way. This leaves open the possibility of a happy ending (DO never wins) and a bad one (DO wins). This is perfect to me, as all good stories need suspense!

[Jsbrads2]

Einstein theorized that time is merely one more dimension of the physical universe.

The premise that "the dragon" could be turned to the dark side and the universe wouldn't be destroyed, requires the side of the light to kill him (like Moraine was threatening to do in the show ep8).

But then how long would people have to survive in a world over run by the Dark One?

[wotfan4472]

The catch with that question depends on which Forsaken is Nae blis at the time. If Ishamael is that, then instant death for all humanity.

If Semirhage is, then humanity will be her torture victims, but will live on.

[EmreY]

It cannot be infinite.  Resources are finite.  

[Sabio]

With all the other worlds where different things have occured or may occur, I always saw that as a failsafe.  If on one world the DO did win, it means there are other worlds still going where he hasn't won.  Seems like it will go on until the creator shuts everything down.

[VooDooNut]

On 1/1/2022 at 10:21 AM, EmreY said:

It cannot be infinite.  Resources are finite.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

 

Also, I like the idea I've seen elsewhere that TDO is the power source for the Pattern.

[EmreY]

21 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

 

Also, I like the idea I've seen elsewhere that TDO is the power source for the Pattern.

 

The second point is interesting.

 

But a system can conserve energy and yet be unable to use it.  Coal can give off heat, but turning heat into coal is a difficult process. 

[VooDooNut]

13 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

The second point is interesting.

 

But a system can conserve energy and yet be unable to use it.  Coal can give off heat, but turning heat into coal is a difficult process. 

Not for the Creator ?

 

My point was that theoretically all the energy needed to run the Wheel is finite, but recycled and constrained to existence within the Pattern.