Siuan and Moiraine’s Relationship

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

Given that they have already focused on Thom and Mat's relationship by the time they get to that point his loyalty to Mat could be sufficient cause to get him to go.   Others that went with Mat did not have a relationship to Moiraine in order to get them to go.

 

There's one hiccup with this, that is not impossible to overcome, but would have to be addressed. 
 

Spoiler

Moraine sent the letter to Thom via Rand in book 5 and that's where saving her comes from.  Mat didn't decide to go and Thom followed out of Love for Moraine.  Thom was constantly teasing at Mat's curiosity to get him to ASK about the letter to start the quest.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

No, I'm expecting Rand to be involved with Min and Aviendha, and Elayne and Egwene to have a relationship as pillow friends, alowing them to write Gawyn out of the story ?

I love this idea actually.  Plus it takes out all the not-incest talk that kept coming up all the time.  But, does that impact Elayne and Aviendha's relationship?

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[RhienneAgain]

10 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

No, I'm expecting Rand to be involved with Min and Aviendha, and Elayne and Egwene to have a relationship as pillow friends, alowing them to write Gawyn out of the story ?

Now this is a change I'd get behind - anything to ditch Gawyn!

 

On topic - I think now they've introduced Siuan and Moiraine's relationship as being present-day, I'd prefer them to stick with it and leave out the relationships with Gareth and Thom.  As others have noted, these were not exactly the best written or most convincing romances in the books and I really can't see ditching them would cause any real narrative issues that couldn't be fixed at least as easily as some of the fixes required for changes introduced so far.

[Jaysen Gore]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

There's one hiccup with this, that is not impossible to overcome, but would have to be addressed. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Moraine sent the letter to Thom via Rand in book 5 and that's where saving her comes from.  Mat didn't decide to go and Thom followed out of Love for Moraine.  Thom was constantly teasing at Mat's curiosity to get him to ASK about the letter to start the quest.

 

 

I love this idea actually.  Plus it takes out all the not-incest talk that kept coming up all the time.  But, does that impact Elayne and Aviendha's relationship?

 

There's an easy solution to this, and to the Thom affair (hmm...the Thomas Crown affair?), and it's the same as I've been pushing for for the Forsaken - no resurrections.

 

 And nope, it wouldn't have to impact Elayne and Aviendha's relationship much. Could even have it be over Egwene instead of Rand, I guess, but given Egwene and Aviendha's friendship, you could still do the sister act thing. 

[themann1086]

My reaction to the idea of cutting the Siuan/Gareth and Moiraine/Thom romantic relationships is basically the "Stop. Don't. Come back" scene from Willy Wonka. Do it Rafe!

 

Anyway, like I said in the E6 thread when posting my first reactions: this is my ship. I shipped these two years before New Spring came out and thought it was a shame that RJ lacked the, let's be generous and call it familiarity, to write a mature same sex relationship. And the show absolutely knocked it out of the park.

 

I finally had the opportunity to rewatch the episode (my wife and I got married this weekend) (yes I am still at the "delights in calling her 'my wife' at every opportunity" phase) and the oath rod scene was incredibly powerful. I do think the part where Moiraine has those intimate comments scans weirdly, but it works if we assume those added lines are supposed to be whispered and not heard by anyone but Siuan. Maybe it's because we watched it literally less than 48 hours before the wedding but the wife and I definitely teared up at their similarity to wedding vows. And the fact that her Oath was to "Siuan Sanche" and not "the Amrylin Seat" could be pretty important!

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, themann1086 said:

My reaction to the idea of cutting the Siuan/Gareth and Moiraine/Thom romantic relationships is basically the "Stop. Don't. Come back" scene from Willy Wonka. Do it Rafe!

 

Anyway, like I said in the E6 thread when posting my first reactions: this is my ship. I shipped these two years before New Spring came out and thought it was a shame that RJ lacked the, let's be generous and call it familiarity, to write a mature same sex relationship. And the show absolutely knocked it out of the park.

 

I finally had the opportunity to rewatch the episode (my wife and I got married this weekend) (yes I am still at the "delights in calling her 'my wife' at every opportunity" phase) and the oath rod scene was incredibly powerful. I do think the part where Moiraine has those intimate comments scans weirdly, but it works if we assume those added lines are supposed to be whispered and not heard by anyone but Siuan. Maybe it's because we watched it literally less than 48 hours before the wedding but the wife and I definitely teared up at their similarity to wedding vows. And the fact that her Oath was to "Siuan Sanche" and not "the Amrylin Seat" could be pretty important!

 

Congratulations! 

[flinn]

2 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Yes, the change in relationship can have impacts but just because a change is made that doesn't mean that the worst possible outcome will happen because of that change.  

 

 

 

There may be other ways to get recruits.  Rand and Mat are not considered "great captains" and they successfully recruited soldiers and followers.  Logain was able to recruit soldiers to his cause without being a "great captain".  

 

 

Yes, in the books.  In the show it could easily go like this:  

 

Siuan.  "Gareth, will you recruit and army?"

Gareth "Yes, that seems like a fine idea.  I will"

 

We can of course argue whether the books did it better or not.

 

 

Given that they have already focused on Thom and Mat's relationship by the time they get to that point his loyalty to Mat could be sufficient cause to get him to go.   Others that went with Mat did not have a relationship to Moiraine in order to get them to go.

 

 

Not really.  There are events in stories that can happen only one way and then there are events that can happen multiple different ways.   We can, of course, argue about which way is better but that does not mean that all other possible ways are lazy. 

 

 

 No, it does not mean that all other possible ways are lazy. What we have seen already is lazy. Why do you think that will all of a sudden change?

[MasterAblar]

Honestly I really don't want them to write Gawyn out of the show. He was immensely frutrating but he was meant to be. He's a very real character, someone who couldn't set their pride aside and paid the price for it.

 

As for Egwene and Elayne, issue I see with that is Egwene and Elayne don't actually spend much time at all together past book 3 and that's gonna come up real quick. They'd have to build a relationship almost entirely off of dream meetings. 

 

Granted it's not like Rand and Elayne saw each other that much, but that's always been pointed out as being pretty weird.

 

Concerning Moiraine and Siuan, like I said elsewhere I think that relationship is doomed to tragedy. Even if Siuan doesn't end up with Gareth, they still never see each other and believe the other to be dead or almost certainly so. And Siuan does end up dying.

Edited December 14, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Jaysen Gore]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Honestly I really don't want them to write Gawyn out of the show. He was immensely frutrating but he was meant to be. He's a very real character, someone who couldn't set their pride aside and paid the price for it.

 

As for Egwene and Elayne, issue I see with that is Egwene and Elayne don't actually spend much time at all together past book 3 and that's gonna come up real quick. They'd have to build a relationship almost entirely off of dream meetings. 

 

Granted it's not like Rand and Elayne saw each other that much, but that's always been pointed out as being pretty weird.

 

Concerning Moiraine and Siuan, like I said elsewhere I think that relationship is doomed to tragedy. Even if Siuan doesn't end up with Gareth, they still never see each other and believe the other to be dead or almost certainly so. And Siuan does end up dying.

Gawyn is an annoying, realistic character. I agree. The problem is he disappears for long chunks of the story (post Dumai's Wells until Egwene's return to TV in tGS, I think ), his personal arc is poor - and he fails - and his relationship with Egwene is shallow, especially since Eggy's done the first love deed.  And he sends the message " a real man can stand to live in a woman's shadow" which ain't great either.

 

One of the reasons I suggested swapping Rand for Egwene is that with the Tar Valon move, we lost the Ta'veren impact of Rand on Elayne in Caemlyn. So now the start of their relationship would be in Tear in book 4, when he's already acclaimed the DR.  Much different. But Egwene / Elayne could play as the college experiment trope before moving on. Especially since we have the true love relationship already.

 

I fully expect a tragic end for the S&M relationship. As it stands right now, given the wording of the Oath, and the plot in the novels, Moiraine will never be able to return to Tar Valon without someone bringing the oath rod out and releasing her. Unless SS goes to FD, that was goodbye to both her lover, and her room in the WT.

[Therese Sedai]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I fully expect a tragic end for the S&M relationship. As it stands right now, given the wording of the Oath, and the plot in the novels, Moiraine will never be able to return to Tar Valon without someone bringing the oath rod out and releasing her. Unless SS goes to FD, that was goodbye to both her lover, and her room in the WT.

I think you’re right. All that foreshadowing “I thought we’d have more time” and the exposition about knowing what it’s like to want something else. All signs point to tragedy. 

[Terry05]

5 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Honestly I really don't want them to write Gawyn out of the show. He was immensely frutrating but he was meant to be. He's a very real character, someone who couldn't set their pride aside and paid the price for it.

 

Good point. Like many, Gawyn was my most hated character in the series. He may take on the role of that tv character you love to hate?

[dwn]

On 12/12/2021 at 12:43 PM, TheDreadReader said:

In the Hall of the Servants, when Siuan questions Moiraine, and Moiraine says "She cannot say".....  is the reason she can't say because she is bound by the oath rod?

 

Quote

"Stay!" Tamra barked. That iron-hard gaze studied them both. "You will tell no one about this, not for any reason. If necessary, lie. Even to a sister. Gitara died without speaking. Do you understand me?"

 

-- A Wish Fulfilled, New Spring, pg. 38

 

So when Moiraine says she "cannot say" she's technically she's telling the truth. The Oath Rod may not prevent her, but revealing anything about the search would break her promise to Tamra.

[Lethira the second]

2 hours ago, dwn said:

 

 

So when Moiraine says she "cannot say" she's technically she's telling the truth. The Oath Rod may not prevent her, but revealing anything about the search would break her promise to Tamra.

 

This is the crux of my issue with the writing in that scene.  We already know that Moiraine is unable to lie, so when she says she 'cannot say' there is absolutely no reason for Siuan to fly off the handle.  I realise the show is making alterations to the lore and customs, but it's pretty well understood at least in NS that Aes Sedai don't pry into one another's business.  And Liandrin's behaviour in the hall?  Snapping at the Amyrlin Seat -why on earth was she not instructed to get down on her knees?  -Yes, we know why but it was pretty clumsy.

 

It actually would have made more sense for Liandrin to point out that Moiraine is riding around with Tower property in her bag (the Angreal we saw in the opening scene) that would have also given us an insight into how the AS viewed such relics.

 

We're almost at the end of season one and we've not seen Thom and Moiraine in the same part of the world, let alone the same room.  While there's still time to establish a relationship it becomes increasingly difficult, the longer it goes. I'd be happy if they dropped the romance between the two.  As yet, they've not covered the fact Moiraine likely knows who was responsible for gentling Owyn, so there at least is a potential reason for Thom to go running off to rescue her.  He still wants the information.

 

Gareth Bryne has plenty of reason for joining the rebels.  Regardless of his obsession with Siuan he's dealing with being publicly dumped by Morgase and rolling around wondering what to do with the rest of his life.

 

Having shown the two are in a relationship, it would be disappointing if that was indeed their last meeting.  A throwaway scene.  Siuan could quite easily send Moiraine a coded message to "come home" whether that may refer to their love nest and that would allow Moiraine to return to the Tower, given the wording of her oath.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

Having shown the two are in a relationship, it would be disappointing if that was indeed their last meeting.  A throwaway scene.  Siuan could quite easily send Moiraine a coded message to "come home" whether that may refer to their love nest and that would allow Moiraine to return to the Tower, given the wording of her oath.

Problem is there’s unlikely to be any opportunity for Moiraine to return. She basically stays by Rand’s side until her “death”, because her life purpose is to ready the Dragon Reborn for the Last Battle.

[Ralph]

22 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Problem is there’s unlikely to be any opportunity for Moiraine to return. She basically stays by Rand’s side until her “death”, because her life purpose is to ready the Dragon Reborn for the Last Battle.

 

Remember she thinks she is dying at the Eye. I expect it not to happen, but they def think they are never meeting again

[Kaiden Valerous]

The scene where they start making out was the last straw for me with this show. The books are infinitely better.

[Lethira the second]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

Problem is there’s unlikely to be any opportunity for Moiraine to return. She basically stays by Rand’s side until her “death”, because her life purpose is to ready the Dragon Reborn for the Last Battle.

 

They've already shown that Siuan has the ability to travel to an undisclosed location in Tear!  Let this romantic have her dreams ?

[TheDreadReader]

5 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

 

This is the crux of my issue with the writing in that scene.  We already know that Moiraine is unable to lie, so when she says she 'cannot say' there is absolutely no reason for Siuan to fly off the handle.  I realise the show is making alterations to the lore and customs, but it's pretty well understood at least in NS that Aes Sedai don't pry into one another's business.  And Liandrin's behaviour in the hall?  Snapping at the Amyrlin Seat -why on earth was she not instructed to get down on her knees?  -Yes, we know why but it was pretty clumsy.

 

Siuan didn't fly off the handle.  Her anger was staged.  Making people think that she was mad at Moiraine was the intended outcome of that scene as soon as Liandrin called attention to Moiraine.  Siuan took the tactical opportunity presented to her and exploited it.  

 

5 hours ago, Lethira the second said:

It actually would have made more sense for Liandrin to point out that Moiraine is riding around with Tower property in her bag (the Angreal we saw in the opening scene) that would have also given us an insight into how the AS viewed such relics.

 

How Liandrian know that she had the Angreal, if we had not seen her see the Angreal?

 

Liandrin is looking to deflect attention from herself.  All the sisters involved in the Logain arc know about Nyneave.  And, presumably word has spread about Nynaeve's strength from contextual clues in the dialogue before this particular scene.

 

It helps if you look at the Hall scenes as a game that Liandrin (and the audience) has every reason to believe that Liandrin won.   That is until it is revealed that Siuan/Moiraine are lovers who are working together (and there is no reason to believe that Liandrin knows this).

 

 

 

 

[Lethira the second]

The problem  is these people -Siuan and Moiraine in particular are smooth political operators and this scene plays like a school playground.  Liandrin appeared to have pushed Siuan to the point where she got the reaction she wanted.  Not only did it weaken Siuan and Moiraine, it also damaged the Blue Ajah -effectively having one of their own turn on them.  Having a leader who appears to be that easy to anger is never a wise move.  You never know who they're going to turn on next.

 

Yes, Liandrin is trying to deflect the attention '-I screwed up but look at her, she hasn't been home for two years!'  She didn't even have a strong case in her complaint and yet Siuan -who is sitting on a knife edge bites and for what?  To make it look as though there is bad blood between her and Moiraine.  If anything, this draws attention to anything that happens between them.  If I were trying to deflect attention from a relationship, I would not want anyone scrutinizing it.

 

With reference to Nynaeve's arrival and strength, again it should be a non issue.  If word got round about her being in the Tower, it would surely have reached the Amyrlin's ears or are we trying to make the Aes Sedai look incompetent?

 

Liandrin appears to have won was a cheap point with the pay off for the audience to get the reveal that Siuan and Moiraine are lovers.  It's not really earned, it didn't feel like the massive reveal they appear to have been aiming at.

 

I bring up the Angreal as we see it in the opening scene of episode 1 but never find out what it is.  That would have been a means to introduce it and also give Liandrin a legitimate complaint.  In the books, the Sitters were aware Moiraine had it and wanted it returned.  

 

My issue with the writing is they are missing opportunities for world building and instead using poorly constructed dialogue to try and manufacture conflict.  Even the exile was weak -Moiraine is being punished for wandering around the country doing as she pleases by sentencing her to, well walking around the country doing as she pleases.  The scene with Maeghan ordering her to remain at the tower, something that didn't need to be introduced.

 

What they wanted. clearly was a reason for Moiraine to leave the Tower and her lover, for a big emotional beat and to allow her to continue but it makes no sense -unless of course Siuan is trying to appear incompetent.

 

In my opinion, introducing the the Tower at this point didn't work.  It would have been cleaner for them to meet Siuan and her entourage in Fal Dara, which then gets rid of the problem of Egwene and Nynaeve having escaped the novice book and surely that has repercussions further down the line.  

[Ralph]

38 minutes ago, Lethira the second said:

The problem  is these people -Siuan and Moiraine in particular are smooth political operators and this scene plays like a school playground.  Liandrin appeared to have pushed Siuan to the point where she got the reaction she wanted.  Not only did it weaken Siuan and Moiraine, it also damaged the Blue Ajah -effectively having one of their own turn on them.  Having a leader who appears to be that easy to anger is never a wise move.  You never know who they're going to turn on next.

 

Yes, Liandrin is trying to deflect the attention '-I screwed up but look at her, she hasn't been home for two years!'  She didn't even have a strong case in her complaint and yet Siuan -who is sitting on a knife edge bites and for what?  To make it look as though there is bad blood between her and Moiraine.  If anything, this draws attention to anything that happens between them.  If I were trying to deflect attention from a relationship, I would not want anyone scrutinizing it.

 

With reference to Nynaeve's arrival and strength, again it should be a non issue.  If word got round about her being in the Tower, it would surely have reached the Amyrlin's ears or are we trying to make the Aes Sedai look incompetent?

 

Liandrin appears to have won was a cheap point with the pay off for the audience to get the reveal that Siuan and Moiraine are lovers.  It's not really earned, it didn't feel like the massive reveal they appear to have been aiming at.

 

I bring up the Angreal as we see it in the opening scene of episode 1 but never find out what it is.  That would have been a means to introduce it and also give Liandrin a legitimate complaint.  In the books, the Sitters were aware Moiraine had it and wanted it returned.  

 

My issue with the writing is they are missing opportunities for world building and instead using poorly constructed dialogue to try and manufacture conflict.  Even the exile was weak -Moiraine is being punished for wandering around the country doing as she pleases by sentencing her to, well walking around the country doing as she pleases.  The scene with Maeghan ordering her to remain at the tower, something that didn't need to be introduced.

 

What they wanted. clearly was a reason for Moiraine to leave the Tower and her lover, for a big emotional beat and to allow her to continue but it makes no sense -unless of course Siuan is trying to appear incompetent.

 

In my opinion, introducing the the Tower at this point didn't work.  It would have been cleaner for them to meet Siuan and her entourage in Fal Dara, which then gets rid of the problem of Egwene and Nynaeve having escaped the novice book and surely that has repercussions further down the line.  

Sorry maybe I haven't followed, but surely Moiraine used this to create the opportunity for the argument. She let Liandrin think she won (remember even before this someone as close to M as Alanna thought she and Siuan were opponents), and actually she got exactly what she wanted and needed

[Spiritweaver1]

Where to start on this thread?  I think I will just beat a dead Bella.  The more you pluck threads from the pattern and try and reweave them into something that makes sense the more difficulty you have.   The relationship's in the book, Siuan and Gareth, for example.  That relationship, rocky at first, creates an army that the rebel Amyrlin (Rand?) uses to help overthrow Elaida?.  He is one of the great captains who eventually have to join together to fight the last battle.   The same with Gawayn and Galad's relationship with Rand and Egwene have distinct and not insignificant purposes in the plot.  If Thom and Moraine don't get some sort of relationship going next season there will be problems when he is supposed to help save her. If she needs saving in this turning of the wheel.  Su and Mo's romance needs to go the way of Laila here today and gone tomorrow.   IF you want to have more lady love then have Elayne swing from both sides of the plate and have her have a  sexual relationship with Birgitte.  Rand would just have to get over it.  Or instead of 4 in the Winespring pool it can be 5.  If Rahvin can keep a group happy then surely someone else can.

[DorrinVerrakai1]

I just wanted to chime in for the first time because this episode meant so much to me as a queer person.  I remember shipping Moiraine and Siuan immediately in book 2 and being absolutely delighted with New Spring.  It devastated me in the books that they never meet again.

 

It was also devastating to me at the time I read the series that their relationship was treated like a silly way to let off some sexual frustration like masturbation doesn't exist? Pillowfriends is a sort of demeaning term to me. I can't think of a lesbian relationship off the top of my head that didn't involve a Black Ajah Red Sister or a Darkfriend.  I understand it was good representation at the time but now we can do much better and I'll be forever grateful to Rafe Judkins for giving this to all the queer fans who read the books and were hurt by it.

 

I also found it gross that both women end up with much older looking men... Gareth Bryne decided to follow "pretty eyes" because she might need help after being dumped by Morgase which is a dumb reason for him to go to Salidar in the first place like he can't just have another barn built.  You can't convince me he personally chases down any "oath" breaker like he did her and they can easily eliminate that all together. I can think of a thousand ways he could be asked to be the General for the Salidar Aes Sedai that don't involve him wanting Siuan like that.

 

As for Thom and the Tower rescue, he doesn't have to be in love with Moiraine for to play that out either. I don't think this is going to go by the books and obviously I don't care. Moiraine's return was absolutely anticlimatic in the books and I hope they make it better in the show. They've already established a strong link between Mat and Thom and the offer of info on the Red Sisters who gentled Owyn can still stand and be a big motivating factor since it's Thom's motivation to help Mat and Rand in the first place.

 

I would think book purists might actually enjoy not having any screen time related to those minor relationships. ?

 

This is a full book series adaptation and not a 1 to 1 book per season show.  Obviously there's gotta be major changes to shorten things and also since we can't have inner narration for the characters they're going to have to do a lot more showing because 10000 pages of monologue isn't going to translate well to a visual medium.

 

They're accelerating the Tower drama and Siuan is meant to be seen on shaky political ground.  They're introducing to the show viewers that the Ajahs are in conflict and that Red and Blue are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.  Liandrin forces Siuan's hand here by implying that Siuan won't question Moiraine because Siuan was once a Blue herself.  There was no way that Siuan couldn't question after that.  I do think that Siuan may have been surprised that Moiraine didn't have an answer ready but it is what it is and what happens does feed into the mystery of the episode which is Who is Moiraine and What is she Doing??

 

I really suggest watching some reaction videos from people who have NOT READ the Wheel of Time.  It may help people appreciate what the show is trying to do.  Siuan's introduction to the series is a big deal for Moiraine's character and packed a huge emotional punch which the show was lacking as well as informing the viewer of what the Hall of the Tower is like and the problems that exist there.  The show hasn't forgotten the Emonds Fielders and their big moments are still coming and we'll appreciate them more with this kind of world building. Imagine the care their emotional beats will get after seeing this?

 

The oath scene is another important info dump.  Now the viewers who haven't read the series understand that when the three oaths are taken that they are literally unbreakable.  It's not that big a stretch to accept that in this version of wot the Aes Sedai might use the oath rod more commonly.

 

It's also reinforced that Moiraine in this version is devoted to the cause of the Dragon but also to her love, Siuan. Every Aes Sedai in the room probably can't even imagine that Moiraine does NOT want to stay in the tower. For all they know she was planning to be there for a long while.

 

I definitely am hoping that Moiraine and Siuan meet again in the show and I can't help but feel like the fact that Moiraine swore to honor and obey Siuan will come back again. I can't shake the idea that the Tower of Gengei rescue could be changed for the better if it's Mat, Thom, and Siuan. ?‍♀️

 

Anyways TLDR, I will never be over this episode and I'm so grateful that Moiraine and Siuan's love was allowed to be more.

[dwn]

24 minutes ago, DorrinVerrakai1 said:

I just wanted to chime in for the first time because this episode meant so much to me as a queer person.  I remember shipping Moiraine and Siuan immediately in book 2 and being absolutely delighted with New Spring.  It devastated me in the books that they never meet again.

 

It was also devastating to me at the time I read the series that their relationship was treated like a silly way to let off some sexual frustration like masturbation doesn't exist? Pillowfriends is a sort of demeaning term to me. I can't think of a lesbian relationship off the top of my head that didn't involve a Black Ajah Red Sister or a Darkfriend.  I understand it was good representation at the time but now we can do much better and I'll be forever grateful to Rafe Judkins for giving this to all the queer fans who read the books and were hurt by it.

 

I also found it gross that both women end up with much older looking men... Gareth Bryne decided to follow "pretty eyes" because she might need help after being dumped by Morgase which is a dumb reason for him to go to Salidar in the first place like he can't just have another barn built.  You can't convince me he personally chases down any "oath" breaker like he did her and they can easily eliminate that all together. I can think of a thousand ways he could be asked to be the General for the Salidar Aes Sedai that don't involve him wanting Siuan like that.

 

As for Thom and the Tower rescue, he doesn't have to be in love with Moiraine for to play that out either. I don't think this is going to go by the books and obviously I don't care. Moiraine's return was absolutely anticlimatic in the books and I hope they make it better in the show. They've already established a strong link between Mat and Thom and the offer of info on the Red Sisters who gentled Owyn can still stand and be a big motivating factor since it's Thom's motivation to help Mat and Rand in the first place.

 

I'm glad they showed it here as well because it really seemed like something RJ added in for New Spring.

 

I'm very likely in the minority on this, but I always viewed the Novice/Accepted pillow-friends thing to cover a broad spectrum of relationships between women who (for many reasons) really had no other options for friends. Likewise, the expectation that they abandon it once gaining the shawl was, to me, less a commentary on same-sex relationships and more about letting go of all "worldly" non-Aes Sedai ties, whether they be to friends, family, lovers or otherwise.

 

The Siuan/Gareth pairing never bothered me much--at least it developed naturally, in a middle-age meet-cute kind of way. And outside of appearance, the age difference isn't all that great.

 

(I agree that Moiraine and Thom, despite being foreshadowed here and there, really didn't make much sense as written.)

[DorrinVerrakai1]

15 minutes ago, dwn said:

 

I'm glad they showed it here as well because it really seemed like something RJ added in for New Spring.

 

I'm very likely in the minority on this, but I always viewed the Novice/Accepted pillow-friends thing to cover a broad spectrum of relationships between women who (for many reasons) really had no other options for friends. Likewise, the expectation that they abandon it once gaining the shawl was, to me, less a commentary on same-sex relationships and more about letting go of all "worldly" non-Aes Sedai ties, whether they be to friends, family, lovers or otherwise.

 

The Siuan/Gareth pairing never bothered me much--at least it developed naturally, in a middle-age meet-cute kind of way. And outside of appearance, the age difference isn't all that great.

 

(I agree that Moiraine and Thom, despite being foreshadowed here and there, really didn't make much sense as written.)

 

Except the Aes Sedai forsaking Love and Sex never made sense.  The Green Ajah made no secret about their love for men but if it's bisexual/lesbian women it's framed as something that's childish and to be put aside.  There are some parts of the series that could definitely use reframing and updating such as the concept that any Aes Sedai not of the Green Ajah magically turned off their sex drives.  Asha'men whatever they're called were allowed to bring their wives and take as many lovers as they wanted in comparison.

 

It was insulting to me after reading New Spring to realize that Moiraine and Siuan were painted as virgins after being known pillowfriends for years.

 

Anyways to each their own on Gareth and Thom. I hated both those relationships but others loved them though after the performance given in episode 6 I'm not sure it'll be easy to accept another love interest for either character without a ton of screen time and hopefully better romance than what was originally written.

[Sabio]

It was explained as an Aes Seai can live over a century, men can't.  So does an Aes Sedai get involved with someone that they know will die a long time before they will.  Do they want to put themselves through that?  Simply easier to have a fling with your warder.  Greens are known to get close to their warders, doesn't mean other Aes Sedai aren't doing it time to time.  Not to mention Aes Sedai being feared and disliked throughout the land means there aren't alot of men wanting to get involved with an Aes Sedai. Finally we see the Aes Sedai hold themselves apart from the people of Randland, few are going around trying to strike up friendships with the common folks.  

[dwn]

12 minutes ago, DorrinVerrakai1 said:

 

Except the Aes Sedai forsaking Love and Sex never made sense.  The Green Ajah made no secret about their love for men but if it's bisexual/lesbian women it's framed as something that's childish and to be put aside.  There are some parts of the series that could definitely use reframing and updating such as the concept that any Aes Sedai not of the Green Ajah magically turned off their sex drives.  Asha'men whatever they're called were allowed to bring their wives and take as many lovers as they wanted in comparison.

 

It was insulting to me after reading New Spring to realize that Moiraine and Siuan were painted as virgins after being known pillowfriends for years.

 

Aes Sedai sealing themselves off from the world is a major part of what's wrong with the whole institution; giving up relationships is the tip of the iceberg.

 

I never saw Siuan and Moiraine painted as virgins. A lot of it was seen through Moiraine's Cairhienin prudery where any discussion of relationships/romance/relations was like naming the Dark One.

 

(I see where you're coming from and I'm not saying you're wrong--I just didn't read it that way.)