Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Mailman]

7 hours ago, expat said:

So this whole rant was because they dropped the scene with the coins, which two of the three promptly lost anyway.  Even if included, two of the three have the same plot arc.

 

As to the ride to TV portion, what was she to do?  She was in a camp of mostly red Ajah sisters, they were going to TV because they were to be punished for gentling a man without trial, she had no idea where they were in a very large landscape of mostly open, lightly populated country, and she was trying to be very secretive about the EF5 (especially around the red Ajah sisters).  Her just riding out of camp to blindly hunt the kids would have been highly suspicious and rang dozens of alarm bells.  Quietly asking questions in towns they passed through and putting her eyes and ears to work looking for them was probably all she could do without alerting the reds.  Even if she knew where one of the kids were, how was she supposed to get them without having a couple of reds chasing her?

 

Finally, I've asked this a couple of time, but never got an answer.  If you are in a group and go to a large location, normally you set a meeting location in case you get lost.  When you realize you (or members of your group are lost), do you wander about endlessly looking for them or head to the meeting location?

I have specifically answered your last point before.

 

She is mounted they EFs are not mounted this means she can easily search and cover far larger areas than the EFs can cover. It also means that she can still arrive in Tar Valon at the same time as them regardless of the search.

 

She could ride back and attempt to find tracks from where they where lost outside Shadar, She has super tracker Nynaeve and okay tracker Lan.

 

If no luck.

 

She knows where they started from which means she could make logical guesses about there route to Tar Valon. She can check choke points for signs of them. The 1 month later scene shows Rand and Mat approaching Tar Valon alongside a line of fellow travelers along what appears to be a small road she could have been checking these approaches with Lan covering some as well so as to not potentially allowing a Male Channeler to enter Tar Valon alone. 

 

What would Moiraine care if the Reds in camp where suspicious her business is hers and she could have left quietly in the night. You worry about them being suspicious yet you are happy to let a male channeler stroll into Tar Valon unprotected by Moiraine to potentially be discovered and gentled.

 

The reds dont know what she is going off to do if she leaves. They might be interested to learn but there job was to return Logain. Finding the Tavern is surely enough of a excuse anyway.

[VooDooNut]

So...yes, given enough scrutiny, this oversight of Moiraine's in the show seems silly, but it certainly doesn't break my vision of Moiraine from the books. I don't personally think I'm blind for thinking that. This is book-reader knowledge we are relying on, so it might not be as apparent to show-only viewers all that Moiraine did or didn't do.

 

Also, Rosamund Pike is a great actor and I enjoyed nearly every moment of her screen time this season. Any discrepancies with regard to tracking the boys certainly isn't enough to disinterest me in the show. Just because things like this exist doesn't mean I laser-focus on them, but I can understand that others could and would. To each their own.

[Mailman]

43 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

So...yes, given enough scrutiny, this oversight of Moiraine's in the show seems silly, but it certainly doesn't break my vision of Moiraine from the books. I don't personally think I'm blind for thinking that. This is book-reader knowledge we are relying on, so it might not be as apparent to show-only viewers all that Moiraine did or didn't do.

 

Also, Rosamund Pike is a great actor and I enjoyed nearly every moment of her screen time this season. Any discrepancies with regard to tracking the boys certainly isn't enough to disinterest me in the show. Just because things like this exist doesn't mean I laser-focus on them, but I can understand that others could and would. To each their own.

Writing it off as book reader knowledge is as lazy as her attempt to find the boys in the show.

 

Making no effort to find the most important person in the world who is actually the literal key to saving the world and is being pursued actively by shadowspawn is just terrible writing, book knowledge or not.

 

Pike is fine. I still believe its a mistake to have given top billing to Moiraine and judging by comments from the showrunners that the show will continue to lean heavily into her role as opposed to the EF5 makes me believe this will continue.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Mailman

[Cauthonfan4]

9 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Which contradictions would those be?

 

Either the source is split and liandrins comments avout men channeling are invalid or the source is joined and somehow women magically don't go crazy when channeling.

 

As an example. Not to mention those listed above. 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Gothic Flame]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Writing it off as book reader knowledge is as lazy as her attempt to find the boys in the show.

Not just lazy, but it either relies on those that aren't book-read to find the information themselves, (assuming they're that into it), or a dumbed down audience that...well, we'll just roll with an audience that's just indifferent. Not promising for a production that wants 8 seasons.

[Deviations]

5 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

Also, Rosamund Pike is a great actor and I enjoyed nearly every moment of her screen time this season.

Go back and watch her enter the winespring inn during ep1.  It's comical.

[zacz1987]

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

What is the contradiction with this? If Nynaeve's childhood village was robbed/destroyed and her parents were killed, why couldn't the old wisdom find her later and take her to safety?

 

 

The contradiction with Nynaeve's background to me is that her 'prayer' was from Manetheren which only really makes sense if her parents who taught it to her were also from somewhere in the Two Rivers. I have noticed that between the episodes there are inconsitencies like this and it seems like the directors and script writers did not really communicate the changes they made with with each other.

Edited January 19, 2022 by zacz1987

[Guire]

8 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

What is the contradiction with this? If Nynaeve's childhood village was robbed/destroyed and her parents were killed, why couldn't the old wisdom find her later and take her to safety?

 

This is most likely true so I won't even try to argue. I didn't notice anything but weather is something for me that just is there as a background.

Unless this is a super common prayer that lots of people know a young child described as an infant by Moraine is not going to remember it or be able to repeat it back.  Some one else would have had to say it and Nyn have a flash back. I loved the scene in episide 4.  I actually wrote a more interesting back story in my head for Nyn, old Wisdom, and Cauthons that would have tied up many of my issues with Show version of Emonds Field.  

 

Not sure about climate in central Randland but the weather seemed to run backwards from central US.  Show seemed to progress from late spring/early summer to early spring  a month later then back to late spring month after that.

[Guire]

8 minutes ago, zacz1987 said:

 

The contradiction with Nynaeve's background to me is that her 'prayer' was from Manetheren which only really makes sense if her parents who taught it to her were also from somewhere in the Two Rivers. I have noticed that between the episodes there are inconsitencies like this and it seems like the directors and script writers did not really communicate the changes they made with with each other.

I think it is normal TV stuff prioritizing something writers wanted to show even if it doesnt make sense with info from previous scene.  It is not horrible but also not great.

[DaddyFinn]

10 minutes ago, zacz1987 said:

The contradiction with Nynaeve's background to me is that her 'prayer' was from Manetheren which only really makes sense if her parents who taught it to her were also from somewhere in the Two Rivers.

One explanation is going through my head but I can't write it down well enough

 

6 minutes ago, Guire said:

Unless this is a super common prayer that lots of people know a young child described as an infant by Moraine is not going to remember it or be able to repeat it back.

People in the books have superb memory. Like almost unnaturally precise.

[KakitaOCU]

14 hours ago, Guire said:

Moraine states to Nyn she was found as baby by wisdom and brought to 2 Rivers.  In scene with Lan she recites old tongue prayer that her father said as he locked her away while family fought off bandits.  There are possible explanations but they are a big stretch.

If there are possible explanations it's not a contradiction.  And I've known lots of people IRL who remember stuff said to them at early ages.

Also, and here's a wild idea.  Maybe Moraine's not perfect and her information is flawed.  

 

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

What she did not bloody do was say stuff it and hope they made it themselves while she took a ride with her friends to Camelyn.

Love how you phrase it to imply she actually went to Whitebridge.  She lost her token on them and then flat out says she has to hope they go the right direction.  She goes to save Perrin and just ignores Rand and Matt, trusting them to go through Caemlyn and waiting there.  Same logic as going to Tar Valon in the show.

 

5 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Either the source is split and liandrins comments avout men channeling are invalid or the source is joined and somehow women magically don't go crazy when channeling.

 

Um, not a contradiction.  The show and the supplementary material flat out explain Saidin and Saidar and that they're separate.  The world and the books have always referred to them as the two halves of the One Power.   So no, Liandrin isn't invalid, she's just coloring and twisting words.  From her perspective men corrupt the power they use.  She's not factually accurate but it's easy to make the argument in that line.  

A contradiction would flat out be something like Claiming that Tar Valon is on the bank of a single river, then we get there and there's 2.  It has to be an actual factual issue, not something that could be the casual result of a number of wording choices or views of different characters.

This is like if I argued that the book is full of contradictions like Rand saying Perrin is great with women, but then Perrin says he's horrible with Women and Rand is the one who's good with them.  

 

[Guire]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

One explanation is going through my head but I can't write it down well enough

 

People in the books have superb memory. Like almost unnaturally precise.

So Nyn has eidetic memory now?  A child under 6 is not going to remember a complex multi sentence prayer in a language they dont speak.  It was just sloppy story telling.  They probably felt scene with Lan/Nyn was so good the contradictions didnt matter.  If they had just left Nyns book backstory in place it would have made perfect sense.  

 

The biggest story thing driving me insane  currently is Nyn grabbing knife in Winespring entrance of Lan.  No one else grabs a weapon.  This version of EF seems much less shut off from outer world. Aes Sedai cant sense other channelers so Moraine didnt set her spidey sense tingling.  A short bladed knife is a very aggressive self defense weapon. Book Nyn"s stick has lots of utility for someone foraging in woods and can be used as a corrective tool with a large range of consequences.  You can tap someone with a stick to get their attention all the way to knocking them unconscious.  A 4 inch blade can only be used to kill or maim someone.  I think this was again just a sloppy way to make her look protective but it went too far.

[Guire]

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

If there are possible explanations it's not a contradiction.  And I've known lots of people IRL who remember stuff said to them at early ages.

Also, and here's a wild idea.  Maybe Moraine's not perfect and her information is flawed.  

 

Love how you phrase it to imply she actually went to Whitebridge.  She lost her token on them and then flat out says she has to hope they go the right direction.  She goes to save Perrin and just ignores Rand and Matt, trusting them to go through Caemlyn and waiting there.  Same logic as going to Tar Valon in the show.

 

 

Um, not a contradiction.  The show and the supplementary material flat out explain Saidin and Saidar and that they're separate.  The world and the books have always referred to them as the two halves of the One Power.   So no, Liandrin isn't invalid, she's just coloring and twisting words.  From her perspective men corrupt the power they use.  She's not factually accurate but it's easy to make the argument in that line.  

A contradiction would flat out be something like Claiming that Tar Valon is on the bank of a single river, then we get there and there's 2.  It has to be an actual factual issue, not something that could be the casual result of a number of wording choices or views of different characters.

This is like if I argued that the book is full of contradictions like Rand saying Perrin is great with women, but then Perrin says he's horrible with Women and Rand is the one who's good with them.  

 

Your brilliance has shown me the errors of my argument.  I will retire from the field.  I have an experiment to conduct at the preschool with a latin mass. 23 years from now their families are in for some shocking recitation.

[KakitaOCU]

11 minutes ago, Guire said:

So Nyn has eidetic memory now?  A child under 6 is not going to remember a complex multi sentence prayer in a language they dont speak. 

She could, and it wouldn't be a contradiction.

 

Or...

As DaddyFinn points out, people have weird memory in the series.  Shocking idea, what if she's just spouting off the Old Tongue the way Mat does in the books and when asked she attributes it to her parents because otherwise where else would it come from?

Do you critique EotW for Mat screaming Manetheren Battle Cries?  Or later on in TDR when he starts speaking a dead language utterly fluently to a group of people?  It's never explained beyond "The old blood"  Last I checked, genetics doesn't cause you to speak languages you've never heard, yet in the world of the Wheel it can.

[Katherine]

15 hours ago, expat said:

 

 

Finally, I've asked this a couple of time, but never got an answer.  If you are in a group and go to a large location, normally you set a meeting location in case you get lost.  When you realize you (or members of your group are lost), do you wander about endlessly looking for them or head to the meeting location?

I agree with you, once MOraine was in the position with the Red Ajah she had little choice but to move to TV. 

 

However, I think it is a fair critique to say that Moraine giving the boys the coins int he book showed foresight, intelligence, and planning.... all which built her character. 

 

Also.... I remember her dogged faith in the pattern..... her faith that by following one coin (boy) that the pattern would deliver the others. This also built her character and displayed the depth of her faith and belief. 

 

The TV show missed an opportunity to showcase that. 

[expat]

Quote

She knows where they started from which means she could make logical guesses about there route to Tar Valon.

What is the distance from SL to TV?  If someone traveled cross country from New York City to Pittsburg in 1750, do you really think that they would be easy to find? That there is a natural route they would automatically follow?

Quote

I have specifically answered your last point before.

Sorry, must have missed it.  Could you please repeat.

Quote

She could ride back and attempt to find tracks from where they where lost outside Shadar, She has super tracker Nynaeve and okay tracker Lan.

You are pretty confident here.  The situation was SL was a large city for its time and they had no idea where the kids might have left it (if they escaped at all).  They would be approximately 8 days behind them when they got back to the city.  Searching the city would have taken how long to find any tracks?

 

Was any land outside the city on rocks that wouldn't show prints? Portions of the city exterior was overrun by Trollocs from when they chased them into the city which would have obscured any prints. How long would these tracks hold up if it rained?  What were the odds that they would find tracks?

 

They had no idea how many groups escaped, so were they looking for 4 sets of tracks (of which they could only follow one) or one set.   Did the kids escape on foot or did they still have their horses? Should they follow the first set (especially if they were horse tracks which may or may not have been ridden) or continue to search for others?

 

Bottom line is that I think you are vastly overestimating the chances of Moraine and Lan finding them even if they went back to SL.

Quote

What would Moiraine care if the Reds in camp where suspicious her business is hers and she could have left quietly in the night. You worry about them being suspicious yet you are happy to let a male channeler stroll into Tar Valon unprotected by Moiraine to potentially be discovered and gentled.

Liandrin was suspicious of Moraine from the first, even though she wasn't doing anything.  After Logain was gentled, there was no longer a need for all the red sisters.  If Moraine suddenly bolted from the camp, you don't think Liandrin wouldn't have sent a couple of red sisters after her? At a minimum, she would have wanted to make sure that Moraine didn't escape her punishment for gentling Logain against tower policy.  On top of that, Liandrin would have also wanted to know what Moraine was doing.

 

Bottom line is that there was little chance of finding the kids and a decent chance that her mission would be exposed to the Reds.  Even if she did manage to find one or more of the kids, would she be exposing the DR to the Reds in a very suspicious manner? 

[Deviations]

43 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As DaddyFinn points out, people have weird memory in the series.  Shocking idea, what if she's just spouting off the Old Tongue the way Mat does in the books and when asked she attributes it to her parents because otherwise where else would it come from?

Do you critique EotW for Mat screaming Manetheren Battle Cries?  Or later on in TDR when he starts speaking a dead language utterly fluently to a group of people?  It's never explained beyond "The old blood"  Last I checked, genetics doesn't cause you to speak languages you've never heard, yet in the world of the Wheel it can.

The book throws the old blood out as an explanation but show Nynaeve isn't from the two rivers so she wouldn't have the old blood?  Sorry if my memory of the show is incorrect.  I don't remember all of the details as I've only see the entirety of ep 1 once.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

Since Nynaeve can channel it's likely one of her parents had the ability as well, whether they were aware of it or not. I see a 3-4 year old, small for her age Nynaeve being hidden by her young and desperate parents, maybe already injured or something. Her mother knows this is it. Her last words to her daughter are more than just words, and the words along with the touch of the one power make a pretty big impression. It's something that comes to her when she is afraid or struggling because of her mother's great want for her to remember and feel comforted by it .

 

Even without magic sometimes moments of intense trauma can cause you to remember unlikely things. 

[Katherine]

1 hour ago, Guire said:

 

 

The biggest story thing driving me insane  currently is Nyn grabbing knife in Winespring entrance of Lan.  No one else grabs a weapon.  This version of EF seems much less shut off from outer world. Aes Sedai cant sense other channelers so Moraine didnt set her spidey sense tingling.  A short bladed knife is a very aggressive self defense weapon. Book Nyn"s stick has lots of utility for someone foraging in woods and can be used as a corrective tool with a large range of consequences.  You can tap someone with a stick to get their attention all the way to knocking them unconscious.  A 4 inch blade can only be used to kill or maim someone.  I think this was again just a sloppy way to make her look protective but it went too far.

 

Yeah I am with you. 

 

I have been thinking a lot about how the show crippled itself by not allowing us to see the EF5 come of age on screen. They all began worldly, extremely powerful, sexually experienced, and criminals (Mat a thief, Perrin a killer). None have that small town niavete that gradually gets washed away by the realities of the world. There is little room for them to grow in wisdom, have new experiences, or discover that their conceptions of the world were wrong. 

 

And none of this has anything to do with screen time. 

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Deviations said:

The book throws the old blood out as an explanation but show Nynaeve isn't from the two rivers so she wouldn't have the old blood?  Sorry if my memory of the show is incorrect.  I don't remember all of the details as I've only see the entirety of ep 1 once.

No, she says "you're not from the two rivers" and Nynaeve doesn't respond with details.   Which means she could still be TR adjacent and able to be descended from Manetheren (or not, we don't know).  Or maybe she's just not from Emond's Field and Moraine is trying to see if she'll slip any extra info.

Just because we don't KNOW an answer doesn't make it a contradiction or a plot hole.  Not until the series is complete.

Now, if at the end that's never explained, then I'd grant weak writing, but considering we're able to find multiple solutions to the issue without much effort and we're on season 1 of a theoretical 8, it's not unexpected to have gaps in our knowledge.

[Katherine]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Just because we don't KNOW an answer doesn't make it a contradiction or a plot hole.  Not until the series is complete.

Now, if at the end that's never explained, then I'd grant weak writing, but considering we're able to find multiple solutions to the issue without much effort and we're on season 1 of a theoretical 8, it's not unexpected to have gaps in our knowledge.

 

I think you are right in many cases.... but here.... they gave us an explaination. They give her a backstory. 

 

It just doesn't make sense. 

 

Which is a plot hole. 

 

Like Logain saying "brighter than the sun" is a plot hole. 

 

Like the lads going with Moraine when they have NEVER SPOKEN TO HER OR LAN is a plot hole. 

 

We have been given lots of information by the show that just doens't make an logical sense within the show itself. 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

5 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, she says "you're not from the two rivers" and Nynaeve doesn't respond with details.   Which means she could still be TR adjacent and able to be descended from Manetheren (or not, we don't know).  Or maybe she's just not from Emond's Field and Moraine is trying to see if she'll slip any extra info.

Just because we don't KNOW an answer doesn't make it a contradiction or a plot hole.  Not until the series is complete.

Now, if at the end that's never explained, then I'd grant weak writing, but considering we're able to find multiple solutions to the issue without much effort and we're on season 1 of a theoretical 8, it's not unexpected to have gaps in our knowledge.

Yes and also a young looking woman has been cast as her Mother, so it looks like a flashback is going to filmed so we can WAFO soo enough.

 

It is fun to have, but you have to know how ?‍♀️??

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, Katherine said:

It just doesn't make sense. 

Several of us just gave a handful of ways it makes sense.  You not liking something =/= an actual plothole.
 

4 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Like Logain saying "brighter than the sun" is a plot ho

 

Been over this one too.  He's having a callback to what Moraine said to him, he's watched her heal a dozen mortal wounds in an instant while also cutting his weaves and throwing debris everywhere.  The phrase is perfectly appropriate even if she didn't also happen to make any light.

You not liking something =/= an actual plothole.
 

6 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Like the lads going with Moraine when they have NEVER SPOKEN TO HER OR LAN is a plot hole. 

Yeah, why would they listen to a lady who says monsters are after them when the monsters literally show up and charge them?  Weird.   Let's try again.  You not liking something =/= an actual plothole.


You can have story beats you feel aren't great and critique them all day long, but that doesn't make them plotholes.  Look at the last three books.  To me I think having Graendal escape the Balefire, then forcing Graendal into a new body as a punishment while then having her go after Perrin while Moghedien is just MIA for the entire time is a bad choice.   I think Graendal should have died, been brought back in a new body, meanwhile Moghedien should have been after Perrin with her mastery in TAR giving Perrin a semi loss due to 2v1.   

But it's not a plot hole that it didn't go the way I want, even if I think it'd have been better.

 

[Cauthonfan4]

50 minutes ago, Katherine said:

The TV show missed an opportunity to showcase that

I think this is a good summary of my problems with the show. They continually miss the mark with opportunities. 

[Katherine]

38 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Been over this one too.  He's having a callback to what Moraine said to him, he's watched her heal a dozen mortal wounds in an instant while also cutting his weaves and throwing debris everywhere.  The phrase is perfectly appropriate even if she didn't also happen to make any light.

You not liking something =/= an actual plothole.

 

HOw does seeing dirt fly around translate to you saying "brighter than the sun".  When on screen we see (if I remember correctly) a light bubble around her. 

 

It is totally illogical to say that he wasn't responding to what we saw on screen when he is EXACTLY  describing what is on screen.  

 

Just because you like the show doesn't mean there aren't plot holes. 

 

You aren't wrong for liking the show, but can't we admit when there are issues? Doing so doesn't invalidate the fact that you like it. ? 

 

 

38 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Yeah, why would they listen to a lady who says monsters are after them when the monsters literally show up and charge them?  Weird.   Let's try again.  You not liking something =/= an actual plothole.

 

We really can't agree that her suddenly... .with no prior interaction... announcing that they might be the DR and have to come with her, and them just agreeing isn't realistic? We really can't agree on that? THat it is unrealistic for 3 young men... one who hasn't buried his wife, one whose father is injured, and the other who is the sole provider for his sisters to just leave on a stranger's say so? With no prior interaction? 

 

Again, giving ground and admitting to flaws doesn't invalidate your enjoyment of the show. I am glad you liked it. Keep liking it!!! 

 

But you can like something and admit fault. 

 

Just like I can say that while I did not like the show, the show did a far superior job building the romance between Lan and Nynaeve. Those scenes were my favorite. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Katherine