Rand's Three "Wives"

[Dagon Thyne]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:06 AM, Samt said:

That's kind of an odd take considering the whole sister wives thing is pretty explicitly a reference to them becoming sisters that share a mother. They have a whole ceremony where they are reborn from a common mother.

So your theory suggests that it's not only polygamous, but also incestuous.  

I believe you are mistaking sister wives for first sisters.  Sister wives do not have to be first sisters.  

 

The ceremony you are talking about involves two women who are closer than friends who wish to adopt each other as first sister.  That has nothing to do with becoming sister wives.

 

Two women can share a husband without being first sisters.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Dagon Thyne

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

I believe you are mistaking sister wives for first sisters.  Sister wives do not have to be first sisters.  

 

The ceremony you are talking about involves two women who are closer than friends who wish to adopt each other as first sister.  That has nothing to do with becoming sister wives.

 

Two women can share a husband without being first sisters.

Interesting.  I was aware that first sisters and sister wives are different and that the ceremony is to become first sisters.  However, I had thought that to become sister wives two women must be first sisters already.  Perhaps that is not the case.  

 

However, my point is that the relationship between sister wives is shown as being primarily that of sisters.  The wives part comes from the fact that they are wives to a common husband.  They are not wives to each other.  As such, there is no implied sexual relationship like there would be between husband and wife.  That doesn't necessarily mean that there couldn't be a sexual relationship, but I would say that RJ made it clear that these relationships are not generally sexual.  

 

We can fanfic slash any two characters if we want to, but that's about all there is to sex between sister wives.  

Edited November 15, 2023 by Samt

[Dagon Thyne]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

Interesting.  I was aware that first sisters and sister wives are different and that the ceremony is to become first sisters.  However, I had thought that to become sister wives two women must be first sisters already.  Perhaps that is not the case.  

 

However, my point is that the relationship between sister wives is shown as being primarily that of sisters.  The wives part comes from the fact that they are wives to a common husband.  They are not wives to each other.  As such, there is no implied sexual relationship like there would be between husband and wife.  That doesn't necessarily mean that there couldn't be a sexual relationship, but I would say that RJ made it clear that these relationships are not generally sexual.  

 

We can fanfic slash any two characters if we want to, but that's about all there is to sex between sister wives.  

No.  Any women can marry the same man if they agree to share him.

 

The only difference with women who adopt each other as first sisters is that they can't get married UNLESS they both want to marry the same man.  

 

 

[Samt]

19 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

No.  Any women can marry the same man if they agree to share him.

 

The only difference with women who adopt each other as first sisters is that they can't get married UNLESS they both want to marry the same man.  

 

 

Does that apply to all first sisters or only to non-biological first sisters?  My understanding was that first sisters is also the term for two women who were literally born sisters.  

[Dagon Thyne]

3 hours ago, Samt said:

Does that apply to all first sisters or only to non-biological first sisters?  My understanding was that first sisters is also the term for two women who were literally born sisters.  

First sister applies to both Is actual sisters, And to close friends who adopt each other as first sisters.  Only adopted first sisters are allowed to become sister wives.  Two blood sisters can't actually marry the same man.

[Aan-Alone]

Perhaps Elayne was just emulating Morgase? I see her as lacking in various relationships role models. I could be biased and mistaken too?

[Dedicated]

On 12/3/2021 at 11:10 PM, HeWhoRunsWithTheSpears said:

Does anyone else feel that this plot point is one of the worst in the entire series? I'm sure it's been brought up countless times, but I just want to give my two cents on it. I don't understand why Jordan felt the need to connect him to Elayne and Aviendha. CLEARLY the only real connection he has is to Min. They actually have a pretty decent love story going. There is absolutely no endgame for his "relationship" (if you can even call it that) with Elayne and Aviendha.

 

I read this whole series as an adult and this bugged me the entire time. It seemed like a teenager's fantasy (being written by a man in his 50s-60s, all the more creepy). It's not like Rand's relationship with Elayne and Aviendha even served any sort of fantasy narrative purpose. 

 

Someone convince me I'm wrong?

 

Honestly, this was something that irked me and was one of the first things I ranted about on this forum. Jordon poses a really big question IMO in terms of why we struggle to live the way we do (or in Rand's case, "What is Rand fighting for?"). Ishamael's reason for going over to the dark one was a logical one. Given the trend in the pattern, eventually the dark one will break free, or in terms we can identify with, we will all eventually cease to exist leaving behind nothing, so why bother with anything? It's all vanity in the end. 

 

I was hoping for some profound and insightful answer to this question, but instead the answer that Rand finds is in all the memories of him banging hot chicks throughout time. I mean, I get that Jordon was saying it's all about love or whatnot, but then even Jordon seemed to think that just one love wouldn't be enough for Rand to endure all the crap he endures. So Jordon/The Creator was like, "Alright buddy, you do this thing for me and I'll get you 3 smoking hot chicks of unique or high status, the powers of a god and to hell with Egwene cause we stopped caring about her after Caemlyn in EoTW." 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Dedicated

[Breckon]

I agree with a lot of what has been said above, so there is no need for me to repeat it.  I would only add the following in addition to the other reasons:

 

Marriage has been used throughout history to create bonds and bring peace (or subjugate, bring into line, gain leverage, or create a claim to power through bloodlines), as a currency and for many other reasons.  I always felt like Caemlyn was the center of the civilized world, like a Rome, and a marriage to Elayne gave Rand a claim to the rule of the civilized world.  Avi was Rand's marriage claim to the Aiel - I know this was not necessary, but it made sense to me that the Aiel would need him to father Aiel children.  Avi, having spent so much time with Rand and being so powerful with the one power, would naturally be in a position of respect with the Aiel.  Min was the fulfillment of a "marry for love not power" trope.

 

Many kings throughout history had more than one wife for purely political reasons.  Jordan loved his politics.

 

I'm not saying that we are meant to believe that Rand thought about those three women in that way, but in the WoT, things happen for a reason.  Of course the most powerful Ta'veren of all time would pull in Elayne and Avi.

 

As with all things Jordan and WoT, I think it is more complex than just the answer that I gave here (for instance, I think the other posts covered important points), but I think that this is one of the pieces of the puzzle as to why we see the three wives.

 

On another note, I understand why the original poster had strange feelings about this.  I read somewhere that authors often try to keep their main protagonist as vanilla as possible.  The reason is because many readers immerse themselves in the story by putting themselves in the shoes of the protagonist.  I presume most people do not do this consciously (as in, they don't actively pretend to be "Rand"), but there is a bit of fantasy in, well, fantasy.  Who hasn't walked as Frodo through the mines, or faced Darth Vader as Luke?  We live these stories through the character's eyes.  If you, as an author, make the decision to have your main character possess some defining trait that doesn't resonate with the reader, it can unconsciously disrupt that fantasy - like a kind of cognitive dissonance.  I understand why Rand had three wives, and I have no problem with it.  But, it did stick out to me (like it obviously did to the original poster). I /presume/ this is because the idea of polyamory is a culture shock to me and causes that cognitive dissonance - I had a hard time relating to it.  I am not judging it in any way, and this is not a comment on polygamy or monogamy, other than to say that it defies my personal "norms" and therefore accidentally pushes me out of my immersion into the story.  The more vanilla your main character, the less people you will accidentally have losing that fantasy immersion.  So, it is not surprising that the polygamist Rand would be like a tiny marble in the shoe of people that grew up surrounded solely by monogamy.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think also for me the idea feels rather unfinished. I remember being shocked when the story suddenly said something like that Tar'mon Gaiden would be happening in  a few weeks at most. To me at that point it really did seem like it would be following the Emond Fielders for the rest of their natural lives. Two of the things that most stuck out for me was the Black Tower - it did not make sense to me that in a few months they could rival the White Tower, and Rand's relationships. Whatever mythic overtones Jordan was going for with the Arthurian image of three women standing before the funeral bier, it just did not feel like he had ever finished that thought. Rand barely spoke to Elayne outside of impregnating her, Min was sent away without any closure, Aviendha also just did not seem to go anywhere. 

 

That is why for me it feels a little like an adolescent wet dream as it does not really do any heavy lifting in the story or the imagery. Course I am sure that this could have landed differently for other readers, but it didn't really work for me. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 11/15/2023 at 4:01 AM, Samt said:

Does that apply to all first sisters or only to non-biological first sisters?  My understanding was that first sisters is also the term for two women who were literally born sisters.  

I thought it was only that first sisters who are both maidens of the spear will only take a lover if they share him - the instance of Gaul, Bain and Chiad where they wanted him to be their lover and he was only interested if they wanted him to marry both of them.

[Samt]

On 6/15/2024 at 12:39 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I thought it was only that first sisters who are both maidens of the spear will only take a lover if they share him - the instance of Gaul, Bain and Chiad where they wanted him to be their lover and he was only interested if they wanted him to marry both of them.

A lot of Aiel culture is just shown through examples and the reader is left to guess what the general case is or how common different things actually are.  However, I don't think there is any textual support for the suggestion that sister-wives have romantic relationships with each other.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I agree that I don't remember anything explicitly romantic or sexual, but it is obviously a deep relationship. 

 

I mean, I have never liked another man so much that I want him to have a relationship with my wife. Regardless of culture or orientation, that simply does not seem logical. But of course, the whole thing is sort of turning polygamy on its head gender wise so maybe it is not really meant to be logical in that way. 

[Samt]

22 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I agree that I don't remember anything explicitly romantic or sexual, but it is obviously a deep relationship. 

 

I mean, I have never liked another man so much that I want him to have a relationship with my wife. Regardless of culture or orientation, that simply does not seem logical. But of course, the whole thing is sort of turning polygamy on its head gender wise so maybe it is not really meant to be logical in that way. 

It's a bit of a twist, but it isn't really turning polygamy on its head.  It's still one man with multiple wives.  It just that the women retain a lot of autonomy and control in the relationship.  Biologically and socially from a reproductive standpoint, one man-multiple women relationships make more sense than the reverse.  If anything, I would say that RJ was trying to make polygamy more pragmatic and functional, not less.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I suppose it could be seen as a function of the constant warfare that the Aiel are engaged in. It still doesn't quite ring true to me, but I guess Jordan was wanting to leaves details vague and hint at the culture in places instead of having to explain everything.