tv show spoilers Darkfriends in WoT TV Series (and books by extension)

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And didn't the Dragon break the world? Using that reasoning all the Forces of Good should have stilled and killed Rand as soon as he was identified. The BT was instituted as a fight against the madness that succeeded despite the infiltration, and contributed to the final victory. The fact that the BA were systematically eliminating male channelers, as they understood their evil charter, should give one pause about the big lie that they were inherently mad destroyers. If so, they should have been protected and heralded by the dark forces.

 

The Aes Sedai (as a whole) did not believe male channelers were big bad evil persons. They believed they were inevitable dangers to those around them and walking time bombs. Again, the BT existed for less than a year. Even if saidin was never cleansed and they survived long enough to fight Tarmon Gai'don, there are clear lore facts that they'd all have inevitably become incredible dangers to themselves and others. The Dragon Reborn was prophesied, and the WT, the non darkfriends at least, understood that he must not be gentled. But again, the Red Ajah mission to prevent another breaking and mad channeling of the power was a legitimate mission that was only adopted by its original founders as a last resort because other methods all failed.

 

It is over simplistic thinking to think that darkfriends twisting it to their evil purposes means the whole mission was a lie to begin with.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Agitel

[Agitel]

I've said my piece on the topic, and I'm drifting away from the show, even if it is related to the plotline of the episode.

[Harad the White]

6 minutes ago, Theseus78 said:

necessary job of protecting the world from male channelers

Sheesh. Rand was a male channeler, whom 15 books showed was correctly protected against this "necessary job." This "necessary job" was a mistaken extermination campaign by the AS lead by the BA (revealing 'taint it?) that would have resulted in defeat of the Forces of Good in the Final Battle. 

 

If they would have put their energies into making a BT, or cleansing Saidin, then the big lie would be put to rest and the cause of saving the World from Evil, advanced.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Harad the White

[CaddySedai]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Sheesh. Rand was a male channeler, whom 15 books showed was correctly protected against this "necessary job." This "necessary job" was a mistaken extermination campaign by the AS lead by the BA (revealing 'taint it?) that would have resulted in defeat of the Forces of Good in the Final Battle. 

 

If they would have put their energies into making a BT, or cleansing Saidin, then the big lie would be put to rest and the cause of saving the World from Evil, advanced.

 

I believe in many ways that was Jordan's point too.

[Daenelia]

The beauty of the Dragon Reborn is that he is foretold to either safe or wreck the world (again) and most likely do both. The question that raises is: what would one sacrifice to safe the world? And there are deeper philosophical questions from that.

 

When to give up, when to push through, how much can one take, is the cure worse than the disease?

 

At least, that's the thin line I saw in it all.

[Harad the White]

15 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

I believe in many ways that was Jordan's point too.

If we agree, great. Who is it?

 

13 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

and most likely do both

How does one save and wreck the World? Otherwise I agree with you and conclude that what was true for Rand is also true for lesser male channelers.

[KakitaOCU]

59 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

When did the BA form? The BT was formed in response to the last battle. The Dark One had to move fast. And his infiltration ultimately failed due to the fact that male channelers were not mad, destroyers but good people overcoming. 

It failed because Perrin got rid of the dreamspike.  Otherwise Taim and Graendal would have won.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Evidence is always nice when there are assertions.

How about Fedwin Morr who almost started taking apart a Castle to make a "Big stone tower to keep Min safe in?"   That's him in the barest beginnings of his madness.  If Rand hadn't dealt with him what would he have done? 

That's one of them ,there were hundreds.

[Daenelia]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

How does one save and wreck the World? Otherwise I agree with you and conclude that what was true for Rand is also true for lesser male channelers.

I guess I am thinking of something along the lines of eggs, breaking and omelette making. Sometimes to save something, you have to sacrifice something.

[CaddySedai]

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

If we agree, great. Who is it?

I meant the creator of our beloved series.

[Harad the White]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

That's one of them ,there were hundreds.

Those are examples of Evil. One could make the same argument by giving examples of Evil by the Aes Sedai. No one is advocating hunting them down and stilling them.

 

6 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

I meant the creator of our beloved series.

I am humbled that we agree. ?

 

8 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

I guess I am thinking of something along the lines of eggs, breaking and omelette making. Sometimes to save something, you have to sacrifice something.

Ok, I'm convinced. Later I will go wreck my car and go to the repair shop.

[CaddySedai]

@Harad the White Look I know its fun getting the total post count up but ...

 

Blood and Ashes my dude... use MultiQuote. XD 

 

I know you know I love merging your posts but still ?

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

I know you know I love merging your posts but still

I only exist to serve.

 

Every poster is important to me and deserves a non-merged response. If others feel differently, whom am I to argue?

Edited December 2, 2021 by Harad the White

[CaddySedai]

Since the other topic is going to be locked at 7 est. And since this deserves a deeper look. I split off some posts to survive the apocalypse and continue on. ?

[KakitaOCU]

50 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Those are examples of Evil. One could make the same argument by giving examples of Evil by the Aes Sedai. No one is advocating hunting them down and stilling them.

 

Except the difference is in probability.

A female learning to channel can choose good or evil and their actions.

A male learning to channel has a 100% chance of going nuts, doing a lot of damage, then dying of a horrible wasting sickness.

Again, we can talk motives of individual sisters, which won't be that cut and dry, and we can definitely talk should there be more done to help these people afterwards.

We've seen ample evidence that sisters ignore the work that needs to be done after severing.  We see this with the fact that we find lots of men killing themselves after gentling, but the ones Cadsuane found tended to live.  We also see this in things like Setalle Anan who was expected to just go off and kill herself but was able to pull through thanks to her husband's help.

I will absolutely agree with you that the task is handled badly in the series.  But that doesn't mean the task doesn't need to be done.  

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Harad the White said:

vidence is always nice when there are assertions.

The taint itself is the evidence of that assertion. LTT's fate. The Breaking.

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I will absolutely agree with you that the task is handled badly in the series.

Not agreeing with me. It's handled fine in the series, the way Jordan would have wanted. Every male channeler shown, even "young man" is shown as a victim of the Reds, and no manifestations of "madness" except voices and ephemeral companions are shown. Isn't it odd that in a fantasy series with teleportation and magic, the immediate cornclusion of many is: "Voices...must be madness!"? Even non-Book readers don't see it that way.

 

There's a hundred % chance that everyone in every world will die. However, if they do good before that, what is the justification for murdering them and worse. 

[Harad the White]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

The taint itself is the evidence of that assertion. LTT's fate. The Breaking.

The 'taint is an obstacle to overcome. Not a license for persecution and annihilation. Rand's ascension is a counterpoint to LTT's fate and the Breaking.

[Elder_Haman]

The taint - as described by RJ - inevitably drives male channelers mad. That's not something the Aes Sedai made up.

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Not agreeing with me. It's handled fine in the series, the way Jordan would have wanted. Every male channeler shown, even "young man" is shown as a victim of the Reds, and no manifestations of "madness" except voices and ephemeral companions are shown. Isn't it odd that in a fantasy series with teleportation and magic, the immediate cornclusion of many is: "Voices...must be madness!"? Even non-Book readers don't see it that way.

 

There's a hundred % chance that everyone in every world will die. However, if they do good before that, what is the justification for murdering them and worse. 

 

I say this somewhat tongue in cheek, but you sound like a "The Breaking Denier".

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

I say this somewhat tongue in cheek, but you sound like a "The Breaking Denier".

Oh Light, you were totally correct - I absolutely see your point and you've completely changed my mind!

[fra85uk]

Well, since the topic is about DF in WoT show, I would like to point out that it seems to me that they are trying to "humanize" DFs as it was suggested by the character of Dana.

Her story and her motivations also made me think that Perrin's (fridge) wife was probably a DF.

My theory is that probably they were not unhappy as a couple but she at some point receives the message about Perrin being a DR candidate and what we are seeing is her conflicted behaviour in that first episode.

[Harad the White]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The taint - as described by RJ - inevitably drives male channelers mad. That's not something the Aes Sedai made up.

Agreed. It's a disease, albeit magical. What's does the Hippocratic Oath say, "First do no harm." The BA "cure" for the disease does ultimate harm. And again, the whole point of 15 Books is to NOT take that approach of the AS, lead by the BA.

[Harad the White]

Just now, fra85uk said:

"humanize" DFs as it was suggested by the character of Dana.

Her story and her motivations also made me think that Perrin's (fridge) wife was probably a DF.

Yes to point one. No to point two. 

Dana is a human, so good on them.

[Agitel]

8 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Agreed. It's a disease, albeit magical. What's does the Hippocratic Oath say, "First do no harm." The BA "cure" for the disease does ultimate harm. And again, the whole point of 15 Books is to NOT take that approach of the AS, lead by the BA.

 

There are plenty of problems with Aes Sedai doing things the way its always done, and functioning by custom for customs sake. And this practice and aftermath could use some revisiting. But there are great disanalogies between the previous 3,500 years or so and the final three years after the prophesied savior starts acting for an all or nothing final battle, taking action we only ever see the short term consequences of and never the long term, and which he ends up ending the problem at issue.

 

3,500 years of not severing male channelers would have resulted in incredible problems. We're told the Aes Sedai only started using severing as a last resort because other methods did failed. We know as fact the land was grossly, physically ravaged and changed for 100+ years by male channelers going mad.

 

Severing was not the "BA cure." The Vileness went beyond Tower law.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Agitel

[fra85uk]

Well, probably I have not explained myself.

I intend to say that DFs in the book are usually quite 1D for their reasons to be DF: power, greed etc etc

Having Dana explain some of the philosophy which in the book is explained by the top villain seems to point towards the fact that such a vision might be more shared among DFs.