Let's Talk About Battles!

[Harad the White]

Battles

The big battle scenes in both GoT and LoTR/Hobbit are the standards for fantasy battles. Gandalf's charge at Helm's Deep, Rohan's charge at Minas Tirith, The Vale's charge at the Battle of Bastards are all classics. I am sensing a pattern here--charges when all is nearly lost. Where might they be in WoT?

[Frenata]

  On 11/30/2021 at 3:57 PM, Harad the White said:

Battles

The big battle scenes in both GoT and LoTR/Hobbit are the standards for fantasy battles. Gandalf's charge at Helm's Deep, Rohan's charge at Minas Tirith, The Vale's charge at the Battle of Bastards are all classics. I am sensing a pattern here--charges when all is nearly lost. Where might they be in WoT?

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• Tarwin's Gap
• Falme
• Dumai's Wells

[DojoToad]

  On 11/30/2021 at 3:57 PM, Harad the White said:

Battles

The big battle scenes in both GoT and LoTR/Hobbit are the standards for fantasy battles. Gandalf's charge at Helm's Deep, Rohan's charge at Minas Tirith, The Vale's charge at the Battle of Bastards are all classics. I am sensing a pattern here--charges when all is nearly lost. Where might they be in WoT?

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They had some badass battles in LotR and Hobbit.  Hopefully WoT does better at Falme than they did at the attempted Logain breakout.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:07 PM, danweasel said:

 

• Tarwin's Gap
• Falme
• Dumai's Wells

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My vote's the Gap; the second one, not the first one. If they can pull it off.

 

Falme takes place in a fog, so I expect it's going to be a charge tinged with inevitable defeat, but we won't see most of it on screen. We don't see most of it in the book, either.

 

Dumai's Wells isn't a last minute charge where there's a lot of combat happening at the time of desperation (they're under that shield); But the opening of that shield at Dumai's Wells will be the opening of Saving Private Ryan, or the end of Platoon. Absolutely trauma inducing.

[TheDreadReader]

  On 11/29/2021 at 5:52 PM, AdamA said:

I don't think this was meant to be a big set piece battle. It's the few stragglers who didn't run home to their mothers attempting a rescue against what? 20 defenders? With no fortifications. If you want to compare it to something from Game of Thrones, it's comparable to Jon leading 20 or so brothers to kill the mutineers at Craster's Keep. There won't be a true battle until Falme.

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I agree.   I think we should also keep the overall budget for the show in mind.  They could have upped the ante on this particular battle but that might have meant taking money away from Winter Night or stuff that we haven't seen yet. 

 

This battle focused mostly on showing the Aes Sedai doing Aes Sedai things and not really big huge battle tactics stuff.    

[Frenata]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:24 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

Dumai's Wells isn't a last minute charge where there's a lot of combat happening at the time of desperation (they're under that shield)

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Hiding since I'm not sure if this thread is meant to include book-spoilers or not.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm thinking of the arrival of the Asha'man as a charge of sorts, that definitely rescues a desperate situation. They arrive, form a bulkhead, and then turn back the tide, which to me has the right 'feel' as some of the other iconic battle scenes.

 

Also, prior to their arrival the charge of Perrin's forces and the Aes Sedai with him seem to be pretty much the definition of a desperate effort.

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 11/30/2021 at 3:57 PM, Harad the White said:

Battles

The big battle scenes in both GoT and LoTR/Hobbit are the standards for fantasy battles. Gandalf's charge at Helm's Deep, Rohan's charge at Minas Tirith, The Vale's charge at the Battle of Bastards are all classics. I am sensing a pattern here--charges when all is nearly lost. Where might they be in WoT?

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I'm going to split this off into it's own thread...

[Harad the White]

Recently, Villeneuve's Dune showed the Harkonnens/Sardaukar sneak attack on the Atreides. Despite being a "big budget" movie, it was modest by the standards above. Maybe they could have enhanced the air component, since the 'thopters were fun to watch.

[DojoToad]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:43 PM, Harad the White said:

Recently, Villeneuve's Dune showed the Harkonnens/Sardaukar sneak attack on the Atreides. Despite being a "big budget" movie, it was modest by the standards above. Maybe they could have enhanced the air component, since the 'thopters were fun to watch.

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Agreed.  Didn't hate it by any means, but could have been better.  Good enough for part 2 to be made anyway.  Re-taking Arrakis with 'thopters, atomics, and worms could be epic.

[Frenata]

The air component makes me think of the Seanchan raid on the Tower -- not a 'desperate charge' but a good candidate for a major set-piece.

[ArrylT]

https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-movies/best-battles-television-epic/

 

 

Here is an article that specifically focuses on what they feel are the best/epic Television battles (ie no film)

Edited November 30, 2021 by ArrylT

[ArrylT]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:07 PM, danweasel said:

 

• Tarwin's Gap
• Falme
• Dumai's Wells

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I am curious to see how / if they will depict armies moving through gateways or the ways.   I expect some "charges" through those down the road.  

[Harad the White]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:55 PM, danweasel said:

The air component makes me think of the Seanchan raid on the Tower -- not a 'desperate charge' but a good candidate for a major set-piece.

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The desperate charge may have originated, cinematically, with the "7th Cavalry." There must be any number of Westerns with this trope. And what about the "Charge of the Light Brigade," movie and irl. Any experts here who know about other desperate charges irl? 

 

Just thought of "Gettysburg," although all of the desperate charges where failures, such as Little Round Top, and the poster child for failure "Pickett's Charge." The movie battle was well-done, imho.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Harad the White

[Frenata]

Hardly an expert, but real world desperate charges (that failed) include:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickett's_Charge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Waterloo#Attack_of_the_Imperial_Guard

 

and maybe more risky than desperate, but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar

[TheDreadReader]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:55 PM, danweasel said:

The air component makes me think of the Seanchan raid on the Tower -- not a 'desperate charge' but a good candidate for a major set-piece.

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I hope that gets included in the show (if they get that far) since we can be pretty sure that RJ's Vietnam experience as a helo door gunner played a part in how he thought that one out.   

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by TheDreadReader
fixed an error

[Harad the White]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:57 PM, ArrylT said:

https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-movies/best-battles-television-epic/

 

 

Here is an article that specifically focuses on what they feel are the best/epic Television battles (ie no film)

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I counted 7 of the 10 from HBO. Pretty amazing. (Of course I've already proven I can't count.)

[Harad the White]

As mentioned above, The Hobbit, sadly maligned, had some great battles: The Gates of Moria, and the Battle of the Five Armies. These, especially the last, are the result of giving an inventive filmmaker, unlimited (?) budget. 

[TheDreadReader]

The thing about desperate charges in fantasy movies is that they are "effective" as entertainment because they hit you in the feels and not because they have a tendency to be all that effective as a tactic.  Basically, if you have to resort to a desperate charge (or a last stand) then you probably messed up before that. 

 

 

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

I wonder if they will do any battle flashbacks for Mat. It'd be expensive to do, but they're kind of important in places.  At the very least, I'd like the battle outside Cahrien against the Shaido.

[MasterAblar]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:15 PM, DojoToad said:

They had some badass battles in LotR and Hobbit.  Hopefully WoT does better at Falme than they did at the attempted Logain breakout.

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I agree the battle at Logain's breakout was rather underwhelming, but I suppose it was more meant as a small skirmish. Even then though it wasn't impressive.

 

For what it's worth the battles in the Hobbit, or really the only real battle there was, wasn't all that great to me. The CGI was so obvious and in your face that it looked almost cartoony to me.

[AdamA]

  On 11/30/2021 at 5:00 PM, Harad the White said:

The desperate charge may have originated, cinematically, with the "7th Cavalry." There must be any number of Westerns with this trope. And what about the "Charge of the Light Brigade," movie and irl. Any experts here who know about other desperate charges irl? 

 

Just thought of "Gettysburg," although all of the desperate charges where failures, such as Little Round Top, and the poster child for failure "Pickett's Charge." The movie battle was well-done, imho.

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Not exactly a desperate last charge, but the Ride of the Rohirrim scene from Return of the King is based somewhat on the Battle of Hastings during the Norman conquest of England. When frontal assaults failed, the Normans pretended to retreat and then used their cavalry (which the English did not have) to flank the pursuers.

 

A more modern-day example of something like a last-minute rescue from cavalry is the Siege of Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. The 101st Airborne was completely surrounded until Patton's 3rd Army showed up and broke the siege, but of course cavalry at that point consists of tanks, not horsemen.

[MasterAblar]

  On 11/30/2021 at 5:00 PM, Harad the White said:

The desperate charge may have originated, cinematically, with the "7th Cavalry." There must be any number of Westerns with this trope. And what about the "Charge of the Light Brigade," movie and irl. Any experts here who know about other desperate charges irl? 

 

Just thought of "Gettysburg," although all of the desperate charges where failures, such as Little Round Top, and the poster child for failure "Pickett's Charge." The movie battle was well-done, imho.

Expand  

 

Murat's charge at Eylau had some desperation to it as it possibly avoided Napoleon his first major defeat. Incidentally 11,000 horses running at you in the snow must be absolutely terrifying.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Eylau#Cavalry_charge_at_Eylau

[Harad the White]

  On 11/30/2021 at 5:32 PM, AdamA said:

Not exactly a desperate last charge, but the Ride of the Rohirrim scene from Return of the King is based somewhat on the Battle of Hastings during the Norman conquest of England.

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Going forward a bit is Henry V at Agincourt. Desperate? Or just a far superior, yet smaller force.  Also not desperate, but epic, Kursk, the biggest cavalry (tank) battle of WW2.

[Gothic Flame]

  On 11/30/2021 at 4:24 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

Dumai's Wells isn't a last minute charge where there's a lot of combat happening at the time of desperation (they're under that shield); But the opening of that shield at Dumai's Wells will be the opening of Saving Private Ryan, or the end of Platoon. Absolutely trauma inducing.

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Dumai's Wells...the one sequence that had me yelling and cheering. The black cloaks were introduced early in the book so I almost forgot them until one came out of gateway in the middle of the battle. ("OMFG!")

That one moment when the Shaido are attacking and accomplishing nothing but bouncing off a shield/dome with the banner of Light proudly flying high...that moment had impact. Almost as much as to what follows after.

[redarm]

I'd love to see some of the Aiel battle scenes, singing and all.