Ch..ch..ch..changes!

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

This leads to my long-held 4th Age theory that whitecloaks + firearms = loss of the one power in the turning of the wheel cycle.

 

 

Not necessarily whitecloaks, but is it even theory?  We see the Way Forward trip where by the end channeling doesn't even get mentioned by the latest point.

[TheChief]

4 hours ago, Chess1932 said:

Emond Field in the TV story looks much cruder than it is portrayed in the book. The book paints a       world that is similar to our 1800 just before railroads and industrial machination but the world of           the TV show is more like the 1400's in our world with rural folk living a huts.

Well, show 2Rivers fit my head cannon, FWIW. And, I have a feeling isolated rural villages looked pretty similar to show Two Rivers. Thatched roofs, peddlers and horse carts, no electricity or indoor pluming. I mean, isolated means isolated and not up to date on recent innovation. I'm sure you could find isolated villages today today that look pretty basic.

[AdamA]

I don't think it looks much different than the farms from Last of the Mohicans, taking place in the mid 1700s. Biggest difference is they don't yet have firearms, but that is true in the books as well. Not because the technology itself isn't known, but because the Guild of Illuminators guards the secret so closely. There are also arguments in many fantasy universes that the existence and usage of magic holds back technological progress. The Atha'an Miere, for instance, would have been greatly incentivized to invent steam engines and motorized rudders, except they didn't need to because of their windfinders. The Aiel lack a lot of practices you see in real world desert societies with respect to cultivation and selective breeding of crops that don't need much water and herding of animals, presumably because the dreamwalkers can just find food for them since wild but not domesticated animals show up in tel'aran'rhiod. Nobody needs to develop construction technology because the ogier just build all the large structures.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

Well ...

This explains a lot of the Changes ... But is massively disappointing to me.

 

Sanderson says at about 11min that basically this "adaptation" is 75% ... maybe 50%, towards the 'inspired by' scale of adaptations rather than 'scene by scene' faithful to the books.

 

He even says that Rafe uses, "Very few" of the scenes from the book at 11:50. 

 

 

 

[Storeebooq]

6 hours ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Well ...

This explains a lot of the Changes ... But is massively disappointing to me.

 

Sanderson says at about 11min that basically this "adaptation" is 75% ... maybe 50%, towards the 'inspired by' scale of adaptations rather than 'scene by scene' faithful to the books.

 

He even says that Rafe uses, "Very few" of the scenes from the book at 11:50. 

 

 

I"m hanging onto his nice comment that he started viewing the show as "another turning of the wheel". I also kind of went to the show pretending it was a Mirror World (like when they go through a Portal). Like how the actual lives Birgitte lived would all have been a little different, but the main story of her myth would hold true. I'm seeing this series as another version of events for the characters, but the heart of the "myth" is there. 

 

I do wish they had more time so we could have more character building for all of the main cast...but I understand the rushed nature of it.  I might not also agree with all the scenes, but some of the new scenes are really taking me into a new experience I'm loving.  It's actually kind of refreshing that after re-reading the series several times...I'm seeing a new spin on the stories. I'm seeing things that are new, and that's pretty awesome!

[Kalessin]

On 12/3/2021 at 8:28 AM, WheelofJuke said:

As far as the armor conversation: I typically wear only a cod piece when going into battle, so I can't really comment on how armor may or may not attach to cloth. ?

Like Lord Blackadder's codpiece, made of metal?

 

Us baresarks foresake even those! (Unless you're a female baresark like Lady Farstrada, in which case you don't get quite so bare ... ? ? )

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

This is interesting too. 

Just about all of these actors are saying - when I got the role I started reading the books - but then had to stop because the scripts for the show were so different! 

Again, I find this incredibly disappointing.

But for those who think they are trying to stick to ... even the "spirit of the books" ... this would be objective evidence that you're wrong. The actors themselves are saying ... the show and the books are SO different and there are SO many changes that we can't reconcile our book character with the show character.

 

 

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

This is interesting too. 

Just about all of these actors are saying - when I got the role I started reading the books - but then had to stop because the scripts for the show were so different! 

Again, I find this incredibly disappointing.

But for those who think they are trying to stick to ... even the "spirit of the books" ... this would be objective evidence that you're wrong. The actors themselves are saying ... the show and the books are SO different and there are SO many changes that we can't reconcile our book character with the show character.

 

 

And it take it another way.  The differences are there because you can't move things directly from book to screen.  As you adapt the less you can use directly from the books.  The location could be different, the characters that are on the screen might be different and hence the dialogue has to be different to reflect that.  This all comes from moving things around to make a coherent story on screen.

 

That doesn't mean they aren't staying true to the spirit of the books.  There are times where they can lift directly from the books even with the changes, Loial's introduction being a good example.

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

This is interesting too. 

Just about all of these actors are saying - when I got the role I started reading the books - but then had to stop because the scripts for the show were so different! 

Again, I find this incredibly disappointing.

But for those who think they are trying to stick to ... even the "spirit of the books" ... this would be objective evidence that you're wrong. The actors themselves are saying ... the show and the books are SO different and there are SO many changes that we can't reconcile our book character with the show character.

 

 

That's what you got, to me I got that they wanted to trust the books as a kind of bible.  They can't trust them literally.

They'd need to approach it the way say Benedict Cumberbatch did for Strange.  He read a ton of comics.  Not to learn the story HE was doing but to understand the character he was playing.

The spirit is there, it always has been.  These character are the same people they were in the books, just details changed.  I'm sorry you feel otherwise.  But claiming that the actors realizing they needed to work with their scripts not the books somehow proves the show isn't keeping the spirit of the series....  that's not correct or an honest take.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

5 minutes ago, Skipp said:

And it take it another way.  The differences are there because you can't move things directly from book to screen.  As you adapt the less you can use directly from the books.  The location could be different, the characters that are on the screen might be different and hence the dialogue has to be different to reflect that.  This all comes from moving things around to make a coherent story on screen.

 

That doesn't mean they aren't staying true to the spirit of the books.  There are times where they can lift directly from the books even with the changes, Loial's introduction being a good example.

 

You didn't watch the video. Clearly. 

Because while what you are saying is true - with an adaptation there has to be numerous changes ... That is NOT what Daniel Henney and Zoe Robbins are directly saying. They are saying...I started reading the books when I got the part ... then when I got the scripts I had to stop reading the books ... because the changes to my character were SO massive!

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

10 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The spirit is there, it always has been.  These character are the same people they were in the books, just details changed.  I'm sorry you feel otherwise.  But claiming that the actors realizing they needed to work with their scripts not the books somehow proves the show isn't keeping the spirit of the series....  that's not correct or an honest take.

Also... did not watch the video.

Can hmmm and haaaa and defend the show till the crows come home. But this is straight from Daniel Henney and Zoe Robbins mouths ... their characters are SO different from the books that they stopped reading the books because it was a hindrance to their performance on the show. 

 

Ya'll want to spin everything to defend the shows changes ... "New Turning of the Wheel" and all that. Quite simply ... it's a different story. 

In another thread or perhaps earlier in this one ... it would be -- more similar to the Hobbit triology's adaptation of the book than the Lord of the Rings adaptation of the books!

 

And... that's not to say that it's bad ... or that we shouldn't enjoy it. It could actually be a really good thing - there were a number of things in the books that simply were not good. And ... none of us can predict what they're going to do next - for certain.

 

But you can't defend that it's a faithful adaptation like ... say ... the Lord of the Rings is (I understand that they changed a number of things in LOTR movies!). But then again, WoT is just too big - the only way they could have done a more "faithful" adaptation is if Amazon studio would have given them 10-12 episodes that were 90 min long.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[KakitaOCU]

6 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Also... did not watch the video.

Can hmmm and haaaa and defend the show till the crows come home. But this is straight from Daniel Henney and Zoe Robbins mouths ... their characters are SO different from the books that they stopped reading the books because it was a hindrance to their performance on the show. 

 

.....

I love that anyone who disagrees with you you dismiss as ignorant and blindly defending.  Can't be that we just don't agree, that can't be right, that implies you're not perfectly accurate.

The part about book influence vs script starts around minute 11 give or take, only Daniel, Zoe and Josha answer.
 

Daniel said he was reading and realized he has trouble understanding the moment and where he was in the scripts versus where the character ends up.

 

Zoe same thing.  The scripts were different enough and she was working on them and put the book down.
 

Now what do we have in these two characters in EotW?  Oh, yeah, nothing.  Nynaeve is a hair pulling stick waving lunatic and Lan is a stoic blank wall until the end when "Oh we're in love!"  Why oh why would that not be helpful for them as actors?
 

Josha said he's just started book 12 and finds them useful but ended up not worrying about it so much because he didn't want the pressure of trying to match fan expectations versus just doing his best.  This actually feels to me like an interview with Sanderson where he said he got to a point where he stopped trying to listen to what all the fans screamed about this character or that and just did the job he was hired for.

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 this is straight from Daniel Henney and Zoe Robbins mouths ... their characters are SO different from the books that they stopped reading the books because it was a hindrance to their performance on the show. 

I can understand that. 

 

7 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

Ya'll want to spin everything to defend the shows changes ... "New Turning of the Wheel" and all that. Quite simply ... it's a different story. 

Not the same thing at all. 

 

7 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

 

 

Personality changes in Lan and Nynaeve, yes. Difference in the development of their romance, yes. Re the gradual build up could argue that Rand was just oblivious to it in the book, but the fact that he didn't turn her down is a huge change, and I'm not yet sure why they did that. 

 

But that is not a fundamental change in "the story" in my opinion

[Theseus78]

On 12/8/2021 at 3:16 PM, AdamA said:

I don't think it looks much different than the farms from Last of the Mohicans, taking place in the mid 1700s. Biggest difference is they don't yet have firearms, but that is true in the books as well. Not because the technology itself isn't known, but because the Guild of Illuminators guards the secret so closely. There are also arguments in many fantasy universes that the existence and usage of magic holds back technological progress. The Atha'an Miere, for instance, would have been greatly incentivized to invent steam engines and motorized rudders, except they didn't need to because of their windfinders. The Aiel lack a lot of practices you see in real world desert societies with respect to cultivation and selective breeding of crops that don't need much water and herding of animals, presumably because the dreamwalkers can just find food for them since wild but not domesticated animals show up in tel'aran'rhiod. Nobody needs to develop construction technology because the ogier just build all the large structures.

Plus, while this may look like the medieval era, it's actually closer to a post-apocalyptic future.   The technologies available are very variable (printing presses and paper, for example, way more common and earlier than other technologies).   

[KakitaOCU]

10 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Personality changes in Lan and Nynaeve, yes. Difference in the development of their romance, yes. Re the gradual build up could argue that Rand was just oblivious to it in the book, but the fact that he didn't turn her down is a huge change, and I'm not yet sure why they did that. 

 

But that is not a fundamental change in "the story" in my opinion

Honestly, because he's not disappearing.

Lan turning down Nynaeve is a very useful plot device in the books.  The Author knows Lan and Moraine are going to be absent from the group all next book.  Probably knew Lan wouldn't see Nynaeve again until Book 4 and that then they were separating again.

Lan turning her down and trying to be strong justifies the separation.  Where as if the show progresses Lan and Nynaeve quicker maybe Moraine goes with the girls for TGH stuff, or some other reason they stay close.

 

  

2 minutes ago, Mrs. Yojimbo said:

Wow.

You can wow all you want.  The poster put up an interview where in one actor said they didn't use the books because knowing where the character ended up caused issue to them, another actor said there was enough script variance to just want to focus there.

From that the poster insists it is undeniable proof that the TV show has completely abandoned the spirit of the story.  They then further respond to any disagreeing statement with a claim that the person disagreeing is ignorant of the interview and is blindly defending instead of presenting their own view.

The poster is being disingenuous at best and I feel no guilt in calling that out.

Edited December 21, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

12 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I love that anyone who disagrees with you you dismiss as ignorant and blindly defending.  Can't be that we just don't agree, that can't be right, that implies you're not perfectly accurate.
 

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions - and I do appreciate that you did listen to the video after all! 

I'm not arguing that you can't like the Tv Adaptations changes - or as I'm sure we all do - see many, similarities. I would just strongly disagree with your opinion, based on this video, that the actors themselves think their sticking to the "spirit of the books" when it comes to their characters.

So for example, I think Henney mentions further on, one of the scenes he questioned was Lan during the funeral showing so much emotion.  

 

11 minutes ago, Ralph said:

But that is not a fundamental change in "the story" in my opinion

 

I think with the time and budget constraints that they are given- they absolutely HAVE to condense and speed up and change and cut. 

Which is all very well and good - and i'm sure difficult for Rafe and team - as well is it for us. 

But I would need more explanation from you for how they're not fundamentally "changing" the story?

 

Consider what Brandon Sanderson said in an interview I posted earlier. He says something like, "Almost none of the scenes in the show are directly from the books." 

Now ... I thought about that ... from what we've gotten so far. And by golly, he's right.

Certainly less then 80% of the scenes we've gotten are directly from the books so far (this is a total guess- but when I think about episode 4, which was my favorite, I don't think a single scene of that episode was in any of the books).

Edited December 21, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Ralph]

13 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Honestly, because he's not disappearing.

Lan turning down Nynaeve is a very useful plot device in the books.  The Author knows Lan and Moraine are going to be absent from the group all next book.  Probably knew Lan wouldn't see Nynaeve again until Book 4 and that then they were separating again.

Lan turning her down and trying to be strong justifies the separation.  Where as if the show progresses Lan and Nynaeve quicker maybe Moraine goes with the girls for TGH stuff, or some other reason they stay close.

 

I actually suspect exactly the opposite. It is to make us relate powerfully to what happens when Lan is reassigned to Myrelle/Alanna and THEN turns her down

Edited December 21, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions - and I do appreciate that you did listen to the video after all! 

I'm not arguing that you can't like the Tv Adaptations changes - or as I'm sure we all do - see many, similarities. I would just strongly disagree with your opinion, based on this video, that the actors themselves think their sticking to the "spirit of the books" when it comes to their characters.

So for example, I think Henney mentions further on, one of the scenes he questioned was Lan during the funeral showing so much emotion.  

 

 

I think with the time and budget constraints that they are given- they absolutely HAVE to condense and speed up and change and cut. 

Which is all very well and good - and i'm sure difficult for Rafe and team - as well is it for us. 

But I would need more explanation from you for how they're not fundamentally "changing" the story.

 

Consider what Brandon Sanderson said in an interview I posted earlier. He says something like, "Almost none of the scenes in the show are directly from the books." 

Now ... I thought about that ... from what we've gotten so far. And by golly, he's right.

Certainly less then 80% of the scenes we've gotten are directly from the books so far.

Scenes yes. And each is to teach us something about what will happen going forward. The story remains the same

[Ralph]

9 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Scenes yes. And each is to teach us something about what will happen going forward. The story remains the same

 

Summarise the story of EotW in 500 words, and see how much has changed. Not very much I believe

 

Leaving Mat behind, missing Elayne and Caemlyn, Lan not turning N down, M&R going by themselves. These are story changes. 

 

Depends how it continues whether the last is major. The rest are not, imo

[Gothic Flame]

If there weren't fundamental changes to the story then no one here would be complaining.

[Skipp]

Yes, the WoT TV show story is so very different that it is constantly hitting the main beats of tEotW while also setting up for story moments in future season.

 

While the details can change because of what I said early, when they have to move conversations around the dialogue has to often change to accommodate that.

 

However Zoe and Daniel approached their characters I find them very similar to their book counterparts, Nynaeve especially. 

 

This version of Lan is certainly more open but that is mostly due to the context of the scenes we seem him in compared to the books.  We get to see him as Moiraine's only close confidant outside of rare visits with Suian.  We get to see him as a comrade and friend to other warders. We actually get to see him grow close with Nynaeve.

 

In the books we only see Lan through the eyes of Rand, outside of a Nynaeve PoV or two.  Rand sees him as stonefaced and unapproachable, at least in the first book. 

 

So while this version of Lan can be considered very different from the Lan we see in tEotW I do think he is very similar to the Lan we know exists throughout the entire WoT series.  This would be the reason, I believe, that Daniel would not find much help with tEotW version of Lan.

 

I do find it funny that you are often labeling those who defend the show as doing it blindly or just swallowing whatever Rafe is feeding us.  It would be no different from just labeling you has blinding hating the show because every change is made only for change sake.  There can be nuance to both out stances.

 

There is plenty of things I think they could have done better in season 1, even if they had a longer run time.  But I find the core of the story they are telling resonates with my favourite book series.  It is wonderful seeing these characters I have spent so many years reading about come to life on screen.  Even if other people don't feel the same.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

The story remains the same

Because ... Rand is still the Dragon? I honestly would love you guy's further explanation, because this doesn't make any sense to me. If almost none of the scenes are the same - how is the story the same. Is it because ... "all roads lead to Tar Valon?" because what I'm saying is, "That's not how roads work!" ?

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

If there weren't fundamental changes to the story then no one here would be complaining.

Crossed out the incorrect word.  You feel changes are fundamental, others disagree.  

I remember people screaming for blood because Tom Bombadil and Glorfindel were missing from Fellowship of the Ring.

For me a fundamental change has to actually alter the core story and plot.  Rand not being the Dragon would be a fundamental change.  If Moraine comes out of book 5 and takes on Cadsuance role that will be a fundamental change.   

So far the only fundamental change that has happened is Mat and that was out of the hands of the showrunner as far as I can see.

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

Because ... Rand is still the Dragon? I honestly would love you guy's further explanation, because this doesn't make any sense to me. If almost none of the scenes are the same - how is the story the same. Is it because ... "all roads lead to Tar Valon?" because what I'm saying is, "That's not how roads work!" ?

Synopsis of EotW: A mysterious wizard shows up in a sleep village right before evil monsters attack.  The monsters are after several young people and so the wizard and her bodyguard take the young people away.  They eventually take refuge in a cursed city where one of the young people picks up a cursed item and the group gets separated.  The groups independently find their way to a major city, growing as people before finding out that there is a significant threat to something called the eye of the world.  They then travel the dark of the ways, a corrupted fast travel network, to get to the city of Fal Dara where the wizard leads the people she thinks necessary to the Eye of the World to face the dark.

Synopsis of Season 1 of tWoT: A mysterious wizard shows up in a sleep village right before evil monsters attack.  The monsters are after several young people and so the wizard and her bodyguard take the young people away.  They eventually take refuge in a cursed city where one of the young people picks up a cursed item and the group gets separated.  The groups independently find their way to a major city, growing as people before finding out that there is a significant threat to something called the eye of the world.  They then travel the dark of the ways, a corrupted fast travel network, to get to the city of Fal Dara where the wizard leads the people she thinks necessary to the Eye of the World to face the dark.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

In the books we only see Lan through the eyes of Rand, outside of a Nynaeve PoV or two.  Rand sees him as stonefaced and unapproachable, at least in the first book. 

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

or me a fundamental change has to actually alter the core story and plot.

 

Ok, so ... Having the first book/season center around the mystery of who might be the Dragon; women can be the Dragon, all five of them together could be the Dragon - doesn't qualify as "core" for you? That, I would argue, is the core of this S1. [and it seems to be working well with non-readers - so I'm not arguing that it's a "wrong" change] but this is definitely NOT the center/main question of EotW. 

 

Not including the prologue (thus far! we may still get it? hopefully...) and setting up the background of the Dragon being LTT reincarnate & why the male side of the OP is tainted isn't "core"? 

 

Not including Elaida (we may never get Elaida because she is likely combined with Liandrin - I know I'm speculating) and what she sees with Rand - the conflict she will have in the Tower. Not "core" to the main story? 

 

Even - telling the story as more of an ensemble from the get-go... Is a fundamental change. EotW is intentionally almost all from Rand - because he's our MAIN character. Not Moiraine. Not Egwene. Not Steppin. 

 

Now, I'm not arguing that this adaptation isn't good, mind you. Some of their ...fundamental changes... are good IMO. For example, having Logain be more of a central character from the get-go. 

But they are, fundamental changes. No? Obviously, some don't think so. But I find it baffling.