Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[EmreY]

Gladly acknowledged - and disagreed in part. ?

 

...

 

It is worth noting, @Sir_Charrid and others, that people are still asking "Did PJ even read LOTR" at theonering.net - twenty years after Fellowship came out. ?

 

So we are just at the beginning here! ?

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Tamal said:

Good move. Definitely better suited here!

As for your post:

 

Not suprisingly, my favourite movie is the first one. Yet, even though the last two aren't as good, the equivalency simply does not exist. Someone with time on their hands could of course tabulate locations the two different "fellowships" travel to, characters they meet, and divide them (as you allude to with you Helm's Deep argument) by text spent on them in the books, but the LotR movies would simply come out vastly higher on a "adaption scale"-variable. I don't have that time, but if you have read both the EotW and LotR recentlt, that is easily apparent.

 

Some small examples are Caemlyn, Elayne, Morgase, Elyas, Elaida being completely absent in the show. 

 

The comparison makes even less sense when you then factor in changes to the story from the EotW (books). The rulebreakings of healing, saidin/saidar, the "breaking of the fellowship" before the Eye of the World. Aginor and Balthamel gone, Stepin as a major character, Liandrin in the woods as opposed to in Tar Valon. Tar Valon itself. Perrin killing his wife.

 

It is an argument without merit in my view. 

 

Now, the worst crimes the show does, together with the changes to the story and the book's very soul, is how it absolutely decimates critical developmental moments in the characters and the characters motivations. 

 

Gimli is not character assassinated in the movies because he provides some extra laughter. He also does that in the books. He is shown both places to be a proud, fierce, honourable, trusty companion that also provides comic relief. I would have loved to seen more of Faramir in the movies, and that they had not dragged out the ring debacle. Still: He is honourable, he does'nt die, he rejects the ring. He is intact. 

 

The Scouring of the Shire. I'm thankful that they skipped that one in the movie, even though it meant they had to let Saruman and Grima go in another way. Still, Saruman as a figure is intact. His motivations, his personality, his main arc is the same. It gave them time to focus on more important things from the books in the story.

 

In the EotW show, Lan is extremely more incompetent than in the books. Mat is somehow inherently evil, instead of shouting out war cries in the old tongue and shooting trollocs with arrows. Rand has almost no struggles with the questions of his parentage. Elaidas questioning, the dialogue with Gawyn, gone. He has lost his defining moment at the end. 

Perrin kills his non-existant wife. I could go on. 

 

Even though the adaption level of EotW(show) vs LotR (movies) is a useless comparison in my view, the most important thing, and saddest, is that the EotW show is just a terrible show. 

Compared to e.g. Game of Thrones, Lord of The Rings, which are great shows and movies. 

 

 

 

 

 

And here we have the heart of the issue - it's not that LOTR didn't have major changes, it's that you agree with the changes they made.  So you're downplaying them.  And Jackson basically said "Tolkien didn't get this right" in a number of interviews. as has Judkins.  So there's no purity test from the directors, either.

 

I don't agree with many of the changes that were made in WoT, and have been vocal about them.  A lot of small decisions smack of bad writing in the Hollywood tradition. But for the most part, I understand the decisions they're making in the context of a pandemic produced season 1 of a TV show when more than 1/2 of the content of the series needs to get dropped.  So I at least have some belief that they will be able to produce an internally consistent version of WoT. Even if it's not exactly like the books.

 

[Chivalry]

I enjoyed the first season of the Shannara Chronicles, though it was much different from the book it was derived from (and despite receiving the MTV/youth treatment). The WOT show is far superior to Shannara. 

I thought the Sword of Truth series was garbage, much like the source material. But adapting the work of a sociopath can't be easy, I suppose. For the record, I couldn't get past the first book. That book ruined dragons for me. Again, this show is not on the level of the WOT adaptation.

 

I never read the GOT books, so this is a difficult comparison. The shocking scenes in the show were genuinely shocking, because I had no idea what was coming. But I do think the terrific actors/acting helped elevate the series. At the same time, I found the gratuitous nudity and sadistic rape scenes deeply disturbing...not my cup of tea. 

Can the WOT adaptation ever reach the heights of the GOT show? Unless the writers start trying to match the GOT, devastating death for devastating death, and bawdy scene for bawdy scene...it will probably never become a cultural phenomenon. Lightning rarely strikes twice, especially so close in time. But the WOT still has the potential to be something truly special. The last episode of Season 1 left a bad taste in my mouth. Rafe and the WOT team have a lot of work to do next season.

 

 

[Guest Testeria]

18 hours ago, EmreY said:

You, sir, are no Tolkien purist.

 

I'm not a Tolkien purist and I believe that removing of The Scouring of the Shire was a game-changing. Me being from former communist country I viewed that the last part of the book is more important then the scene of actual ring destruction. It is a reprise of the classical "restoration of God's order" theme and the whole story just do not make sense without it.

 

I'm not Jordan's purist either - I just started reading the books - but I believe WoTTV is much worse then LoTR adaptation. For me it is even hard to tell who the main protagonist of the series is? I know it supposed to be Rand but in the show it is Morraine, with Nyn and Egwene as supporting cast, Rand is fourth on the list with no real exposition or character development. Maybe they will change it for season 2 but this will make whole structure of the story different with every season focused on different characters... my expectations are low.

 

From my point of view Jackson wanted to show us LoTR but failed because frankly he is not that good of a director and he did not fully understand the whole story as presented by Tolkien.

Rafe and Pike (she is co-producer, no?) wanted to show us different story than Jordan because they believe that original is no longer relevant and needed new vision and new story ark. I'm not saying their vision worse than Jordan's - it is just different. But they also failed because of skill and technical problems that seems much worse then in LoTR (I still do not understand how someone can spare 100 million $ on adaptation and not secure first class director like Villeneuve or good writer that would write ALL episodes to create consistent story).

[notpropaganda73]

The LotR chat is interesting.

 

The biggest issue to me is how these changes are executed. Fellowship of the Ring in particular was so well done that changes end up being accepted (for the most part) because of the excellent product as the end result. WoT S1 has not executed half as well as Fellowship did, so the changes are harder to accept for many. But I don't think it's right to say that the changes in LotR were not as significant as WoT. Many of the ones listed are as big a change to core characters as anything we have seen in WoT so far. 

 

 

As a note, I find Two Towers & Return of the King really bloated and verging on bad movies, considering how the trilogy started. Some excellent scenes hold both movies up but overall really disappointing. But I always have the books ? 

 

 

[Guest Testeria]

53 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

As a note, I find Two Towers & Return of the King really bloated and verging on bad movies, considering how the trilogy started. Some excellent scenes hold both movies up but overall really disappointing. But I always have the books ?

 

Jackson is just a bad director - so when the story was more or less linear he did well, but whenever we have two or more parallel stories he loses his grip.

I'd say it is even worse with Rafe. Couldn't they really find someone with more experience and success stories for the 100+mln$ show? It so strange to me.

 

[ArrylT]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:32 AM, ArrylT said:

I just recently watched Episode 1 of S1 of The Witcher.

 

It is pretty difficult to grade a show on 1 episode vs another show on 1 episode.

 

But in this case The Wheel of Time did beat The Witcher in one very key metric (for me).   My significant other currently has no desire to watch any more The Witcher.    She is a major LOTR fan (books & movies), loves GOT, and has become a big WoT show fan (to the point that she is making t-shirts & other stuff, re-watching episodes on her own & getting ready to read EOTWf).   But 1 and done with Witcher as a show.

 

Personally if I had to grade both after 1 episode I would do it like such

 

Acting:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Cinematography:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Action:  Slight edge to The Witcher

Plot: Edge to Wheel of Time*

Writing:  Slight edge to Wheel of Time

Tone:  Edge to The Witcher 

Character attachment:  Major edge to Wheel of Time

 

My biggest "dislike" of the Witcher after 1 episode is that

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Multiple Characters came off as very unlikeable, and a couple seemed to straight out be liars.  IE they'd make a promise or describe something & it was completely fabricated.    Ex:  Queen of Cintra tells her granddaughter she'll know when she (the Queen) will be dead.  Then she goes and falls out of a window slightly later on.   Impact to Ciri?   Nada.   

 

* - admittedly I have the benefit of having read the books (but she did not and neither did several of our friends) however for me at least the holes in the Witcher Plot are easy to notice and I am not looking for them because I have no desire to dislike The Witcher, so that was interesting.

 

I will keep watching The Witcher on my own.   But I think while WoT had some flaws in the first episode, it was a lot easier to deal with, because of my past attachment to the books, to be able to be accepting, and with re-watches enjoy the show more & more.   But when judging Witcher Ep1 on simply fantasy entertainment it was somewhat lacking (but like a 6/10 not a 1/10).   I simply feel no sense of compulsion to keep watching.  There where things that bugged me about The Boys after Ep1 but none of which to the point were keeping me from wanting to continue then and there.   But to each our own right?   

 

Anyways lots of time over the next months to keep enjoying my re-read of the book series, further re-watches of S1 and enjoy all the WoT show content out there.   

 

Have now watched E2 of The Witcher.    I will watch it again (like I rewatched E1 2x), but at the moment while the world is more vast in terms of locations used - it still feels smaller than WoT because the majority of locations are sets (imo) with a few outdoors, whereas the large majority of Ep2 for WoT was out in the open and the sets used felt vaster / bigger (Shadar Logoth / Whitecloaks camp).   A lot of the visuals are done from close ups, with the occasional CGI shot of what I am guessing is Aretuza.

 

Witcher definitely has a grimmer vibe after 2 episodes, and I still struggle to find a character I am able to relate to /like.   Obviously Garelt of Riva is good from an acting perspective, but as a person to actually have a connection with - not there yet - sort of like Mat post Dagger - seems almost tainted by his past.

 

Have now met Jaskier.   I think that thread earlier about the bards is misleading in the sense that if you go with first impressions - Thom is so much stronger.   I think that video for A Coin for your Witcher is quite good but that isnt how the song first is shown, nor was it our first instance of seeing Jaskier perform - so on that thread you're sort of grading first impression of Thom vs a glossed up Jaskier promo video.   I did like the contrast of how the audience in Breens Spring is enthralled by Thom while the crowd listening to Jaskier pays him to stfu.   But I honestly cannot see how anyone going on first appearance of each performing music can give the nod to Jaskier.    I'll make sure to re-watch the scenes of both in their episode introduced.   

 

It is still a challenge to grade a show vs. a show 2 episodes.    I think the Witcher is quite entertaining, but when I compare it to WoT and looking through a lens comparing the 2 on specific criteria I do not yet see a category where the Witcher has a major edge.  But I think that comes from ones perspective.    The Witcher world is coming off quite grim and most of the characters seem willing to turn on one another. 

 

Spoiler

One character is sold for $ by her father.   2 characters are secretly betraying each other to their teachers. 1 character stabs another literally in the back.  

 

Ciri at the moment is more of a "Mary Sue" than Egwene/Nynaeve.

 

Spoiler

Basically Episode 2 has her constantly ending up getting helped by different characters - including 1 character who helped her in 3 different instances - and her "power" is screaming.  

 

 For those thinking Geralt is a better fighter than Lan well Lan 2 episodes in did not get ambushed from behind and knocked senseless. ? 

 

Spoiler

Nor does he sleep with people he has been hired to kill

 

Updated:

 

Acting:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Cinematography:  Edge to Wheel of Time has increased

Action:  There is better action in E2 of WOT so they tie up here

Plot: Edge to Wheel of Time

Writing:  Going to say even, as the writing in E2 of Witcher improved for me a bit

Tone:  Edge to The Witcher 

Character attachment:  Major edge to Wheel of Time

World of (how it is shown on screen):   Edge to The Wheel of Time

Believability*:  Edge to The Wheel of Time

Pacing/Editing:  Slight edge to The Witcher (got weaker imo as the 2nd episode went on)

 

Just to be clear - enjoy the show - happy to keep watching it - but looking at it through a critical lens while doing the same with Wheel of Time it is going to be The Wheel of Time a couple of tiers ahead atm.

 

* - Did what happen make logical sense within the world, the way things have been shown,  and we're expected to understand.  

[Katherine]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

Have now watched E2 of The Witcher.    I will watch it again (like I rewatched E1 2x), but at the moment while the world is more vast in terms of locations used - it still feels smaller than WoT because the majority of locations are sets (imo) with a few outdoors, whereas the large majority of Ep2 for WoT was out in the open and the sets used felt vaster / bigger (Shadar Logoth / Whitecloaks camp).   A lot of the visuals are done from close ups, with the occasional CGI shot of what I am guessing is Aretuza.

 

Witcher definitely has a grimmer vibe after 2 episodes, and I still struggle to find a character I am able to relate to /like.   Obviously Garelt of Riva is good from an acting perspective, but as a person to actually have a connection with - not there yet - sort of like Mat post Dagger - seems almost tainted by his past.

 

Have now met Jaskier.   I think that thread earlier about the bards is misleading in the sense that if you go with first impressions - Thom is so much stronger.   I think that video for A Coin for your Witcher is quite good but that isnt how the song first is shown, nor was it our first instance of seeing Jaskier perform - so on that thread you're sort of grading first impression of Thom vs a glossed up Jaskier promo video.   I did like the contrast of how the audience in Breens Spring is enthralled by Thom while the crowd listening to Jaskier pays him to stfu.   But I honestly cannot see how anyone going on first appearance of each performing music can give the nod to Jaskier.    I'll make sure to re-watch the scenes of both in their episode introduced.   

 

It is still a challenge to grade a show vs. a show 2 episodes.    I think the Witcher is quite entertaining, but when I compare it to WoT and looking through a lens comparing the 2 on specific criteria I do not yet see a category where the Witcher has a major edge.  But I think that comes from ones perspective.    The Witcher world is coming off quite grim and most of the characters seem willing to turn on one another. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

One character is sold for $ by her father.   2 characters are secretly betraying each other to their teachers. 1 character stabs another literally in the back.  

 

Ciri at the moment is more of a "Mary Sue" than Egwene/Nynaeve.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Basically Episode 2 has her constantly ending up getting helped by different characters - including 1 character who helped her in 3 different instances - and her "power" is screaming.  

 

 For those thinking Geralt is a better fighter than Lan well Lan 2 episodes in did not get ambushed from behind and knocked senseless. ? 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nor does he sleep with people he has been hired to kill

 

Updated:

 

Acting:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Cinematography:  Edge to Wheel of Time has increased

Action:  There is better action in E2 of WOT so they tie up here

Plot: Edge to Wheel of Time

Writing:  Going to say even, as the writing in E2 of Witcher improved for me a bit

Tone:  Edge to The Witcher 

Character attachment:  Major edge to Wheel of Time

World of (how it is shown on screen):   Edge to The Wheel of Time

Believability*:  Edge to The Wheel of Time

Pacing/Editing:  Slight edge to The Witcher (got weaker imo as the 2nd episode went on)

 

Just to be clear - enjoy the show - happy to keep watching it - but looking at it through a critical lens while doing the same with Wheel of Time it is going to be The Wheel of Time a couple of tiers ahead atm.

 

* - Did what happen make logical sense within the world, the way things have been shown,  and we're expected to understand.  

 

So interesting that you posted this, because this morning I was going through this all in my head. 

 

Are/were you a book fan of The Witcher? I wasn't so I went in to watching S1 without any prior knowledge of the books. I often wonder if that is why I was able to enjoy it so much (despite confusion when it came to rules of magic etc.) 

 

I will go ahead and say that I think that wold building and magic was explained/shown better in Season 1 of WoT than in S1 Of the Witcher. (but maybe my background knowledge of WoT is why I think this?)

 

But IMO there is just no question that production quality and writing are superior in Witcher S1 and S2. THe entire time I watcher Ep1 of Witcher and he was talking to that boar guy and looking at the make-up and CGI combo...... I couldn't help wishing our Trollocs looked that good! 

 

I also disagree that Cirri is a Mary Sue. A huge amount of her arc in season 2 is training and really having no clue how to do what she is doing. Her inadverdent explosions of magic causes horrible things to happen etc. 

 

Egwene seems to have cured death with no training. 

 

Nyn can form supershields against mean voices in the ways and heal tons of people in one blast. 

 

Neither has had (on screen) more than a few moments of training at this point. 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Katherine

[ForsakenPotato]

This is funny because I also just watched the first two episodes of The Witcher last night, only due to the constant comparisons on this forum (mostly in the direction of "The Witcher is way better than WoT") because I've had no previous desire to watch that show.

 

I do think the costumes and settings in The Witcher felt more detailed and richer to me, and they seem to be able to have a lot more people in one shot for battles...but to be honest that was the only thing that seemed notably better. A lot of the dialogue seemed even more forced than WoT (I don't think either have matched early seasons of GoT in terms of writing quality, although maybe I'm remembering with rose-colored glasses as I haven't rewatched it). I also don't think the acting is better. I have no complaints about Henry Cavill but Rosamund Pike sets a very high bar. There is definitely more fighting so I get why more action-oriented fans like it better so far, but also it's the main character's job to fight which isn't true at this point in WoT (except Lan and I agree with everyone else he needs to be given more fighting scenes).

 

So...I dunno. The Witcher is fine, but after 2 episodes I don't really care yet about any of the main characters (and they just need to convince me of yellow eyes, purple eyes, and blue eyes, compared to the 7 at this point in WoT). If I hadn't read the WoT books I might feel similarly about the two shows (I haven't read or played The Witcher), but already knowing how much I like the WoT universe and characters there's not much of a comparison for me personally.

[AdamA]

Comparison to The Witcher is interesting. Witcher season 2 is currently sitting at 94% positive critics rating and 61% fan ratings. That is stark contrast to the first season, which was 68%/91%. The consensus from pretty much everyone in gen pop is season 2 was a big improvement on season 1, and I personally agree with that. Gripping scenes, interesting characters I want to root for, makes the Nilfgaardians way more complicated and less pointlessly evil. But the season is getting carpet-bombed by 1/2 star reviews from book fans whose gripe is basically just "deviates from the books." I'm not sure where because I never read them, but you can see the way this colors perception.

 

And I can see it with myself with WoT. I think a fair amount of season one amounted to mediocre television, though I wouldn't call any of it "bad" by any stretch. But a whole lot of stuff that bugged me only bugged me because I was expecting one thing and got another or anticipating what future impact it might have based on knowing where the book story eventually goes. A clean slate perception would definitely be different.

 

It seems like a lot of people just don't like Eye of the World, though. Complaints about Mat not speaking old tongue when he doesn't speak old tongue until the fourth book. You're remembering his character from the entire series. He was practically a non-entity cipher until he gets cured in book three. The "Mary Sue" stuff makes it seem like you don't like Wheel of Time itself. All of the EF5 and Elayne are "Mary Sues" by the standard they can do stuff without much justification. Elayne rediscovers how to make angreal. Nynaeve heals stilling and gentling. All things no one has done in 3,000 years. They couldn't have received training even in principle since no one else knows how to do it. Rand defeats the most powerful of the forsaken three times in a row before he receives a lick of training. Mat and Perrin become military masterminds with no military background. Mat literally wins fights by luck. Egwene out-maneuvers Aes Sedai with decades of political experience who apparently just forgot to read their own law books. Egwene also figures out how to make cuendillar without anyone teaching her, another thing no one has done for 3,000 years.

 

None of that matches the actual definition of a Mary Sue and the term is being abused to death, but if your concern is barely adult characters being severely overpowered and outperforming much more experienced older characters, that is Wheel of Time in a nutshell and it's hard to see how or why you even enjoy the books. It's just standard "chosen one" hero's journey narrative that the chosen one has special abilities and does things no one else can do.

[divica]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

Have now watched E2 of The Witcher.    I will watch it again (like I rewatched E1 2x), but at the moment while the world is more vast in terms of locations used - it still feels smaller than WoT because the majority of locations are sets (imo) with a few outdoors, whereas the large majority of Ep2 for WoT was out in the open and the sets used felt vaster / bigger (Shadar Logoth / Whitecloaks camp).   A lot of the visuals are done from close ups, with the occasional CGI shot of what I am guessing is Aretuza.

 

Witcher definitely has a grimmer vibe after 2 episodes, and I still struggle to find a character I am able to relate to /like.   Obviously Garelt of Riva is good from an acting perspective, but as a person to actually have a connection with - not there yet - sort of like Mat post Dagger - seems almost tainted by his past.

 

Have now met Jaskier.   I think that thread earlier about the bards is misleading in the sense that if you go with first impressions - Thom is so much stronger.   I think that video for A Coin for your Witcher is quite good but that isnt how the song first is shown, nor was it our first instance of seeing Jaskier perform - so on that thread you're sort of grading first impression of Thom vs a glossed up Jaskier promo video.   I did like the contrast of how the audience in Breens Spring is enthralled by Thom while the crowd listening to Jaskier pays him to stfu.   But I honestly cannot see how anyone going on first appearance of each performing music can give the nod to Jaskier.    I'll make sure to re-watch the scenes of both in their episode introduced.   

 

It is still a challenge to grade a show vs. a show 2 episodes.    I think the Witcher is quite entertaining, but when I compare it to WoT and looking through a lens comparing the 2 on specific criteria I do not yet see a category where the Witcher has a major edge.  But I think that comes from ones perspective.    The Witcher world is coming off quite grim and most of the characters seem willing to turn on one another. 

 

  Hide contents

One character is sold for $ by her father.   2 characters are secretly betraying each other to their teachers. 1 character stabs another literally in the back.  

 

Ciri at the moment is more of a "Mary Sue" than Egwene/Nynaeve.

 

  Hide contents

Basically Episode 2 has her constantly ending up getting helped by different characters - including 1 character who helped her in 3 different instances - and her "power" is screaming.  

 

 For those thinking Geralt is a better fighter than Lan well Lan 2 episodes in did not get ambushed from behind and knocked senseless. ? 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nor does he sleep with people he has been hired to kill

 

Updated:

 

Acting:  Edge to Wheel of Time

Cinematography:  Edge to Wheel of Time has increased

Action:  There is better action in E2 of WOT so they tie up here

Plot: Edge to Wheel of Time

Writing:  Going to say even, as the writing in E2 of Witcher improved for me a bit

Tone:  Edge to The Witcher 

Character attachment:  Major edge to Wheel of Time

World of (how it is shown on screen):   Edge to The Wheel of Time

Believability*:  Edge to The Wheel of Time

Pacing/Editing:  Slight edge to The Witcher (got weaker imo as the 2nd episode went on)

 

Just to be clear - enjoy the show - happy to keep watching it - but looking at it through a critical lens while doing the same with Wheel of Time it is going to be The Wheel of Time a couple of tiers ahead atm.

 

* - Did what happen make logical sense within the world, the way things have been shown,  and we're expected to understand.  

I am sorry, but you have a character that kills a trollock with a little knife without having any training, tracks some people that should be untrackable and puts a sword to the neck of one of the best warrior of the series (without training), heals a bunch of people from near death (without training), shileds against a major threat in the series (wihtout training) and kills thousands of trollocks (without training) and you think ciri is more of a mary sue?

 

I can understand that you like wot better than the witcher, but there are things in the witcher that are miles above wot. 

[Katherine]

Yeah, Watching and enjoying The Witcher as a non-book fan while watching and bemoaning WoT as a book fan is extremely interesting and DOES go to show just how difficult it is to adapt books in a way that feels natural and right. 

 

So while I feel like RJ2 was not up to the task, I will concede that the task was far greater than maybe I understood. 

[ashi]

18 minutes ago, AdamA said:

It seems like a lot of people just don't like Eye of the World, though. Complaints about Mat not speaking old tongue when he doesn't speak old tongue until the fourth book. You're remembering his character from the entire series.

 

Not strictly true:

 

Quote

The Eye of the World, chapter 18, The Caemlyn Road

 

Even before the Myrddraal moved, Lan's sword was in his hand. "Stay with me!" he cried, and Mandarb plunged down the slope toward the Trollocs. "For the Seven Towers!" he shouted. Rand gulped and booted the gray forward; the whole group of them streamed after the Warder. He was surprised to find Tam's sword in his fist. Caught up by Lan's cry, he found his own. "Manetheren! Manetheren!"
Perrin took it up. "Manetheren! Manetheren!"
But Mat shouted, "Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!"

 

And, less pertinent, but in book three < four:

 

Quote

The Dragon Reborn, chapter 18, Healing

 

Suddenly Mat shouted, loud and strong. “Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem!” Arched and struggling, eyes squeezed shut, he bellowed the words clearly. “Los Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!”

...

Mat’s eyes opened, and he glared at the women standing around him. “Mia ayende, Aes Sedai! Caballein mirain ye! Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai miaain ye! Mia ayende!” And he began to scream, a roar of rage that went on and on, till Egwene wondered that he had breath left in him.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by ashi

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Yeah, Watching and enjoying The Witcher as a non-book fan while watching and bemoaning WoT as a book fan is extremely interesting and DOES go to show just how difficult it is to adapt books in a way that feels natural and right. 

 

So while I feel like RJ2 was not up to the task, I will concede that the task was far greater than maybe I understood. 

The problem here is that anyone that read the books of the witcher should know that there are things there that are ubber rubish and would never work on tv 

Spoiler

Like ciri's father starting a war so that he can kidnap his daughter and impregnate her. However after 5 books when he finally catches her as she starts crying he lets her go and spares geralt and goes away...

 

this is just too idiotic to adapt...

However, if someone is going to adapt a book series they should respect the lore and world building in the books. Because THAT is what allows for complex and gripping storylines that cross several seasons in a way that a tv written show can't.

If the objective is to rewrite a series into what you think the series should be, with a diferent lore and focus on completly diferent things from the books then you shouldn't adapt the series into tv. And I am sorry, but this is what rafe is doing. The more the series goes on the less wot there is on the show...

[Katherine]

1 hour ago, divica said:

The problem here is that anyone that read the books of the witcher should know that there are things there that are ubber rubish and would never work on tv 

  Hide contents

Like ciri's father starting a war so that he can kidnap his daughter and impregnate her. However after 5 books when he finally catches her as she starts crying he lets her go and spares geralt and goes away...

 

this is just too idiotic to adapt...

However, if someone is going to adapt a book series they should respect the lore and world building in the books. Because THAT is what allows for complex and gripping storylines that cross several seasons in a way that a tv written show can't.

If the objective is to rewrite a series into what you think the series should be, with a diferent lore and focus on completly diferent things from the books then you shouldn't adapt the series into tv. And I am sorry, but this is what rafe is doing. The more the series goes on the less wot there is on the show...

Don't disagree with you AT ALL.  I have said on other threads that I think I am done with this show. I just can't find much to like about it. I still think that The Witcher series is producing things on a higher level almost across the board. 

 

Just trying to concede the point that the adaptations are so friggin hard. 

[flinn]

1 hour ago, Katherine said:

Yeah, Watching and enjoying The Witcher as a non-book fan while watching and bemoaning WoT as a book fan is extremely interesting and DOES go to show just how difficult it is to adapt books in a way that feels natural and right. 

 

So while I feel like RJ2 was not up to the task, I will concede that the task was far greater than maybe I understood. 

 I binged Witcher right after it came out on Netflix, inbetween episodes of WoT. I was thinking about that the whole time I watched it. I knew Witcher bookfans would be having meltdowns but I was thoroughly enjoying the show. I tried to carry that over to the next episode I watched of WoT and while I did have moderate success with that frame of mind, I also couldnt help noticing there seems quite abit more cheez in WoT than in Witcher. Even as a non-book reader I wouldnt be able to help noticing the cheez, weak dialogue and lazy writing. No doubt there was some of that in the Witcher (almost all fantasy has some), WoT definitely has a lot more overall. I have maintained an overall score for WoT season 1 as a 6/10, or a 3.5/5.  If I were searching for a tv show to binge, 6/10 wouldnt be high enough to really draw my attention.

[Guest Testeria]

1 hour ago, Katherine said:

Just trying to concede the point that the adaptations are so friggin hard. 

 

I think this is more of a specific mindset of the Holywood. And the way they produce things. The Witcher is much better then WoT still they managed to input things just becausewhere original content would fit better (and I'm not counting typical racial representation nonsense)

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, divica said:

The problem here is that anyone that read the books of the witcher should know that there are things there that are ubber rubish and would never work on tv 

  Hide contents

Like ciri's father starting a war so that he can kidnap his daughter and impregnate her. However after 5 books when he finally catches her as she starts crying he lets her go and spares geralt and goes away...

 

this is just too idiotic to adapt...

However, if someone is going to adapt a book series they should respect the lore and world building in the books. Because THAT is what allows for complex and gripping storylines that cross several seasons in a way that a tv written show can't.

If the objective is to rewrite a series into what you think the series should be, with a diferent lore and focus on completly diferent things from the books then you shouldn't adapt the series into tv. And I am sorry, but this is what rafe is doing. The more the series goes on the less wot there is on the show...

Not really understanding the difference here? You are saying if you think they are idiotic or unacceptable that is fine, but if someone else does and you disagree then not? 

[Spiritweaver1]

On 11/27/2021 at 2:31 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. It was decidedly mediocre. One good acting performance (Ben Barnes). A few okay ones. Poorly developed lore, bad episode continuity, cringy romance. And not all critics reacted better to it. 
 

WoT is far from perfect. It has, however, gotten stronger with each episode. It has better characters, better CGI, and better overall writing. 

I have to ask you if you saw E8?  By any measure it was one of the worst of the series.  Sloppy writing, for example, the miracle heal by a completely untrained Egw. Why didn't she save the rest ala Nyn? Even if Nyn was healed she would still be burned out and finished from a channeling perspective. Trollocs able to hammer through a stone wall. No wall defenses, burning oil or catapults besides arrow slits. No cavalry reserves.  Little in the plot made sense to me.   The sliding forward of the temptation of Rand was lazy and will seem repetitive when or if they show the test for raising to Aes Sedai and the final temptation of Rand. 

 

I guess we watched two different episodes.  

[Elder_Haman]

8 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I have to ask you if you saw E8?

I did. It was disappointing. 

I'm still of the opinion that WoT was a better show than Shadow and Bone. I'm also of the opinion that S1 of WoT was better than S1 of The Witcher and that S2 of the Witcher was better than S1 of WoT.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Elder_Haman

[Skipp]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I did. It was disappointing. 

I'm still of the opinion that WoT was a better show than Shadow and Bone. I'm also of the opinion that S1 of WoT was better than S1 of The Witcher and that S2 of the Witcher was better than S1 of WoT.

 

Agreed it was disappointing but it contained possibly my favourite scene of the series.  The entire confrontation between Rand and the MAN was fantastic.

[Spiritweaver1]

On 12/8/2021 at 5:04 PM, Harad the White said:

Other SF that might be great in film is the Doc E.E. Smith "Lensman" and "Skylark" series. They are both pulp fiction, but with quite interesting ideas, especially the Lensman's run through Earth history. I may be hallucinating by I thought I watched a Japanese Anime version of one Lensman story on laserdisk (!) with "Kimball Kinnison," but I have not been able to find any trace of it on the interwebs.

Wow, I remember when I started my first job out of college.  i was telling somebody that I liked sci-fi and he asked me what I liked.  I told him one of my favorites was the Lensman Series.  He looked at me with a sneer on his face and said "complete space opera trash" which crushed that conversation.   I reread it a few years ago and I realized what he was talking about.  However, as you say, the idea's in the books were very interesting and I believe that material might make a very interesting source for some enterprising streamer.  "They would need to give it a good budget and rewrite a lot of the story but I am on board with this idea.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Wow, I remember when I started my first job out of college.  i was telling somebody that I liked sci-fi and he asked me what I liked.  I told him one of my favorites was the Lensman Series.  He looked at me with a sneer on his face and said "complete space opera trash" which crushed that conversation.   I reread it a few years ago and I realized what he was talking about.  However, as you say, the idea's in the books were very interesting and I believe that material might make a very interesting source for some enterprising streamer.  "They would need to give it a good budget and rewrite a lot of the story but I am on board with this idea.

They can't do the Lensman series now, since Green Lantern was already done, and took so many of the key concepts from that series for the version that got made. It would appear derivative

 

For the record, WoT is about to run headlong into this with the Fremen, with Dune part 2 out less than 6 months before Season 3 of WoT, which i expect will be the big Aiel intro season

[Spiritweaver1]

4 hours ago, AdamA said:

 

 

None of that matches the actual definition of a Mary Sue and the term is being abused to death, but if your concern is barely adult characters being severely overpowered and outperforming much more experienced older characters, that is Wheel of Time in a nutshell and it's hard to see how or why you even enjoy the books. It's just standard "chosen one" hero's journey narrative that the chosen one has special abilities and does things no one else can do.

What you say in your overall post makes sense.  However, I have a problem in that for Nyn and Egw there appears to be no hero's journey.  They are already awesome and already doing things that nobody in the books could do ever.  Where are their struggles?  The learning?  That is what I really enjoy about the books is the character arc's.   That is what made the LOTR adaptation so successful for me as a long time book fan.  I had problems with no Tom Bombadil and no scouring of the shire but ultimately it was the hero's journey of our fellowship characters and the fact that they used a lot of dialog verbatim from the books.   LOTR is by far the best adaptation in my opinion.  I had so hoped for the WoT but they are going a different way.  Right now I rate them closer  to the Legend of Earthsea than LOTR.  I was unable to complete one season of the Witcher or GoT.   The Witcher because it seemed too much to be a monster of the week and GoT because it had too much gratuitous sex and violence and no hero's journey that I could discern after 7 episodes.

[ForsakenPotato]

But doesn't Rand at the end of EotW also do something awesome that no one has done in recent memory, additionally with no training? (teleport, defeat a foresaken, defeat an army of trollocs). I feel like we just accept it because he's the dragon reborn and the main character, so we expect him to do something impressive. When Nyneave and Egwene along with 3 other women accomplish one small part of what he does in the book we decide it's unreasonable?