Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[LordyLord]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 

 I love the wheel of time series but realistically the first 2 books the world

doesn't feel Unique or different for the first 2 books I can see the Tolkien references leaping from the page. That isn’t a criticism but, Rafe needs to get through the fantasy trope bit and to the unique wheel

of time bit as quickly as possible.

I agree with the fact  EOTW is quite derivative and Rafe had the burden to make it unique.

But judging by the critic reviews, it doesnt seem Rafe succeeded. Rememeber the Critics dont care about the changes. They are reviewing quality

 

Shadow and Bone was in the same situation. The source material was your typical chosen one girl with a mild Love triangle thrown in.

 

The Show runner had the same challenge to make it unique. And they did. They cleverly introduced an new plotline that ended up making the Show BETTER than the books.So the Shadow and Bone showrunner succeded where Rafe is doing.....averagely

 

 

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

I believe you have reason to be concerned.

Critics ripping into the show aren't doing it because of changes made from the books, it's everything to do with making a good show to begin with; script, characterization, acting...a big budget show that invites comparison to the smaller budgeted GoT...and coming up unfavorably as GoT looked very much worth the production value it gave.

i didn't watch GoT so I cannot judge fairly - but I think critics were heavily criticizing it too, mostlty because of all the gratuitous sex?

 

[Elder_Haman]

42 minutes ago, LordyLord said:

I agree with the fact  EOTW is quite derivative and Rafe had the burden to make it unique.

But judging by the critic reviews, it doesnt seem Rafe succeeded. Rememeber the Critics dont care about the changes. They are reviewing quality

 

Shadow and Bone was in the same situation. The source material was your typical chosen one girl with a mild Love triangle thrown in.

 

The Show runner had the same challenge to make it unique. And they did. They cleverly introduced an new plotline that ended up making the Show BETTER than the books.So the Shadow and Bone showrunner succeded where Rafe is doing.....averagely

I’m sorry, but WoT runs rings around S&B. 

[LordyLord]

27 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’m sorry, but WoT runs rings around S&B. 

Book definitely.

Show? Not at all

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

i didn't watch GoT so I cannot judge fairly - but I think critics were heavily criticizing it too, mostlty because of all the gratuitous sex?

 

Well, Rolling Stone has kinda gushed season after season...it annoyed the heck out of me. I wasn't a fan of the books...but I did watch a few episodes, and I was impressed with what I saw in the production...which was also annoying since I didn't want to be impressed. I wish I could say I wallowed in the shaedenfreud of GoT season 8, but I felt some sympathy for those that kept up with the show despite the deterioration after season 5.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Spelling

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, LordyLord said:

Book definitely.

Show? Not at all

Show 100%. It’s not even very close. 

[Harad the White]

8 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

wallowed in the shaedenfreud of GoT season 8, but I felt some sympathy for those that kept up with the show despite the deterioration after season 5.

GoT got better with time and the last season was the best. The reaction of human beings to "popular" events is best portrayed in the book Cosmicomics by Italo Calvino. First they don't know what it's all about. Then they start paying attention. Next, given enough support, they begin  to love it. They can't get enough of it. It's the best thing since sliced trolloc. Next, they hear about or see a flaw-- their beloved has feet of clay. They start drifting away from it. The next stage is hatred. They hate everything about it. They don't know why anybody ever liked it. Finally, they ignore it again. One complete turn of the Wheel.

[LordyLord]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Show 100%. It’s not even very close. 

Have you watched Shadow and bone show? Cause there is a reason why Critics reacted better to it

[Gothic Flame]

7 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

GoT got better with time and the last season was the best.

First time I heard anyone ever said that. 

The last few episodes of GoT were very amusingly parodied by a slew of comedians and youtubers.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Gothic Flame
Clarity

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

The last few episodes of GoT were very amusingly parodied by a slew of comedians and youtubers.

Yes, so was the Sermon on the Mount by Monty Python.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, LordyLord said:

Have you watched Shadow and bone show? Cause there is a reason why Critics reacted better to it

Yes. It was decidedly mediocre. One good acting performance (Ben Barnes). A few okay ones. Poorly developed lore, bad episode continuity, cringy romance. And not all critics reacted better to it. 
 

WoT is far from perfect. It has, however, gotten stronger with each episode. It has better characters, better CGI, and better overall writing. 

[Harad the White]

Not sure where this should go, but here it is. 

The actress who played Dana the Darkfriend barmaid in WoT, also played the Blackblood Priestess' daughter in The Outpost. The Outpost was a Swords&Sorcery series on C&W which filled a gap between GoT and WoT. It was far less ambitious than those. Even so, it was not bad. It started well, meandered around for a few years, and ended unexpectedly excellently. It was also shot in Eastern Europe, so likely paved the way for WoT. The last connection with WoT is that one of the FX studios is Outpost FX.

Edited November 28, 2021 by CaddySedai
Moved to be in the proper thread :)

[2RiversFan]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. It was decidedly mediocre. One good acting performance (Ben Barnes). A few okay ones. Poorly developed lore, bad episode continuity, cringy romance. And not all critics reacted better to it.

Agree with this.

The only reason I watched it was because I have a 14 yr old daughter and things like this keep us having things to do together.  I read the Shadow and Bone books (first trilogy) after watching the series... not because the series inspired me to, but I thought that the source material is typically better.  Unfortunately, the book trilogy suffers from some pretty bad writing.  My daughter tells me that the writing in second duology gets much better, so maybe they are.

Back to the topic of this thread, after re-watching Episode 4 I am now somewhere between 'Like' and 'Love' for the Amazon show.  I now understand much more about the choices they've made that diverge from the book events, and I don't believe that any of the changes are due to changing the canon on anything that matters.  
- Only the characters think that the DR can be anything other than a man; this is due to those with partial knowledge of history aren't trusting the sources from which they learned history.  (Moiraine is knowledgeable - likely more than most, but only to an extent.)  In other words, there is no Herid Fel level of knowledge, at least yet, and Moiraines' knowledge has been toned down somewhat compared to the books.
- Saidar and Saidin still work the same way in the show as the do in the books (Origin story "Saidar, Saidin, and Stone released in Amazon app this week helps dispel the rumors/angst that they'd changed that).

Final note is that Rafe's Q&A from reddit https://www.wotseries.com/2021/11/24/reddit-ama-with-rafe-judkins/ gives me all the rest of the reassurance I needed to believe that the show is headed in the right direction.

Now it just needs to keep trending upward from the standpoint of the points above.

Edited November 27, 2021 by 2RiversFan

[phoenixtrinity]

32 minutes ago, 2RiversFan said:

My daughter tells me that the writing in second duology gets much better, so maybe they are.

 

She's right! I read Six of Crows first, which is the sequel to Shadow and Bone. It's still one of my favorite YA reads and is quite unique. Then I read Shadow and Bone, expecting the same quality writing and oh boy -- I have a lot of respect for Leigh Bardugo but whatever she was doing with Shadow and Bone was not great. I barely got through the series because it was pretty rough and relied on some romance tropes I was not fond of... Also there's an entire plot line that has major plot holes and is never properly resolved ?

 

That said, I haven't seen the show. Is it good?

 

[CaddySedai]

Just now, phoenixtrinity said:

 

She's right! I read Six of Crows first, which is the sequel to Shadow and Bone. It's still one of my favorite YA reads and is quite unique. Then I read Shadow and Bone, expecting the same quality writing and oh boy -- I have a lot of respect for Leigh Bardugo but whatever she was doing with Shadow and Bone was not great. I barely got through the series because it was pretty rough and relied on some romance tropes I was not fond of... Also there's an entire plot line that has major plot holes and is never properly resolved ?

 

That said, I haven't seen the show. Is it good?

 

 

Ehhhhhh. lol.

 

I have met people who enjoyed it. I felt it was best summed up as such. Ahem:

 

Showrunners:

*reading "How to make a fantasy tv show"*

Aha...so lets do this! Can't possibly be that hard.

*types a few minutes, gets stuck, literally ctrl+c and ctrl+v from said "how to make a fantasy tv show" 

I am...a legend.

[Deadsy]

3 hours ago, LordyLord said:

Have you watched Shadow and bone show? Cause there is a reason why Critics reacted better to it

 

 

There is a lot more to it than that. Shadow and Bone has sold fewer than 3 million English copies. That means there are far fewer book purists to give the show bad ratings.

Additionally I assume it doesn't suffer from appearing like a LotR rehash in the beginning. WoT also has been reviewed as "generic" by some critics through no fault of its own, seeing as the source material for the show was written 30 years ago and WoT is at its least unique point in the books while they are running from trollocs.

The problems the critics have with it for the most part have nothing to do with changes from the source material. The problems the regular reviewers leaving 1-star reviews have with it mostly have to do with nitpickiness, racism, or sexism.

 

And finally, Shadow and Bone is 358 pages.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Deadsy

[JenniferL]

Seems like this conversation deserved a dedicated thread. Enjoy! 

[Pandemonium]

everything is a matter of taste, but I thought the shadow & bone show was boring and average.  The wheel of time live setting alone is way better than the dark cgi set of s&b.  The lead actress seemed pretty mediocre and limited.  I watched that whole season and fell asleep several times, only finished because one of my family members wouldn't stop watching after starting.  I don't really remember too much other a stag, some weird bones a conductor, and cirque du Soleil chick that likes knives.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Pandemonium

[ArrylT]

Excluding superhero & low/urban fantasy I think the only high/epic fantasy shows I've seen are

 

Game of Thrones

Earthsea

Discworld

 

But I may edit this when I think of others

 

And well WOT beats all of them when comparing Year 1 to their Year 1.   As a whole GOT show beats WOT show - but not Year 1 to Year 1.

 

The interesting thing for me is that I think a lot of earlier high / epic fantasy might now fall under the YA umbrella, if it had started recently, for example

 

Xanth

Belgariad / Mallorean / Elenium / Tamuli

Riftwar

Dragonlance

 

At my local library Hobbit & LOTR is not filed under Adult but either Teen / Juvenile

 

So basically staying true to the books may no matter what give off that YA vibe.

 

It all depends on the period on which the books / show comes out.   I wouldnt be surprised if books that come out now could be perceived to be for a completely different audience 30-40 years from now.

 

At some point I may give Witcher, Seekers and/or Shannara shows a try.  I'm fine with guilty pleasures.

 

Spoiler

By Grapthar's hammer, you shall be avenged!

 

[Guire]

15 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Excluding superhero & low/urban fantasy I think the only high/epic fantasy shows I've seen are

 

Game of Thrones

Earthsea

Discworld

 

But I may edit this when I think of others

 

And well WOT beats all of them when comparing Year 1 to their Year 1.   As a whole GOT show beats WOT show - but not Year 1 to Year 1.

 

The interesting thing for me is that I think a lot of earlier high / epic fantasy might now fall under the YA umbrella, if it had started recently, for example

 

Xanth

Belgariad / Mallorean / Elenium / Tamuli

Riftwar

Dragonlance

 

At my local library Hobbit & LOTR is not filed under Adult but either Teen / Juvenile

 

So basically staying true to the books may no matter what give off that YA vibe.

 

It all depends on the period on which the books / show comes out.   I wouldnt be surprised if books that come out now could be perceived to be for a completely different audience 30-40 years from now.

 

At some point I may give Witcher, Seekers and/or Shannara shows a try.  I'm fine with guilty pleasures.

 

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By Grapthar's hammer, you shall be avenged!

 

We don't joke about GalaxyQuest.  That is mighty fine film making right there.  I watched most of Shannara and remember almost nothing about it.  I genuinely like Witcher but it feels more like an 80s episodic at times.  Story and cgi are all over the place.  I think WoT may end up better but I still don't fully trust WoT team yet.

[CaddySedai]

Honestly even though they might be considered bad.

 

I adore GalaxyQuest and even Pluto Nash.

 

Sci-fi is my weakness being a Trekkie and a Warser.

 

But I have my limits *glares at Jupiter Ascending*

 

I feel the same about Shannara - it was a disposable memory about a series I enjoyed.

 

WoTPrime is not that.

[ArrylT]

12 minutes ago, Guire said:

We don't joke about GalaxyQuest.  That is mighty fine film making right there.  I watched most of Shannara and remember almost nothing about it.  I genuinely like Witcher but it feels more like an 80s episodic at times.  Story and cgi are all over the place.  I think WoT may end up better but I still don't fully trust WoT team yet.

 

I was not joking about GalaxyQuest so much as an acknowledgement that it is a movie that I think is amazing but am aware the general populace thinks its not.   Not surprised, but pleasant to know nonetheless that a few other WOT fans think so too. ?

[Harad the White]

Here's one we may never see: Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever, by Stephan R. Donaldson.

 

These are a very dark, interesting trilogy of trilogies, with the last trilogy containing 4 books. The total of 13 books, all reasonably tome-ish beats RJ, but loses to the RJ/BS collaboration.

 

The "hero" is the face you see, when you look up anti-hero in the dictionary. The worlds are amazing, with incredibly inventive rules and inhabitants. WoT proves that it's possible to start (let's see the finish) such an ambitious task with the CGI advances and the billionaire money available now. But the tone of Thomas Covenant, may put off the money people, until all hope is lost.

[DaddyFinn]

40 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Belgariad / Mallorean / Elenium / Tamuli

I'd love a live-action show or animation of these. They were one of the first fantasy series I ever read

[JaimAybara]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

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By Grapthar's hammer, you shall be avenged!

No love for the suns of Worvan?