tv show spoilers White Cloaks - Bad writing or ? - TV show spoilers ahead!

[AdamA]

Agelessness is obviously out, since it never made sense to begin with. Someone who stops aging at 30 just continues to look 30, not "ageless." It only ever worked in a book because Jordan could rely on your imagination filling in something that is physically not possible.

 

As for the question, Valda should clearly just ask everyone he suspects straight up "are you Aes Sedai?" The only explanation for not asking is he doesn't suspect. After all, there aren't very many Aes Sedai, so the chance of any random person you come across being one is pretty low. Other manner of darkfriends and generally mischievous and criminal people are far more common, so that is where the initial questioning focuses. Look at it this way. Randland is a bit larger than the United States, and has less than a thousand Aes Sedai. Read this analysis and there are very likely more lottery jackpot winners in the US than Aes Sedai in Randland: https://talkingaboutnumbers.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/how-many-lottery-winners-are-there-in-a-year/. But if you were part of some group that has it out for rich people, would you go around asking everyone you meet if they've ever won the lottery? I would also imagine the whitecloaks don't believe the oaths are real. Otherwise, every time they ask an Aes Sedai if she's a darkfriend, how is she able to say no?

 

The stuff about Lan is nonsense. It's hard to read how picky people are about his portrayal, like anything less than a Chuck Norris meme is betrayal of the character. Ultimately, book Lan allows his Aes Sedai to "die." You may as well ask why he didn't throw Lanfear through the doorway himself. The answer is he's a damn good fighter, experienced scout, decent enough bodyguard, but he's not a Chuck Norris meme. He has all the same limitations any real person would have. The show has a lot of shortcomings that I could go on about for ages, but Lan is fine. Daniel Henney was a bright spot.

Edited January 4, 2022 by AdamA

[Jaysen Gore]

14 minutes ago, AdamA said:

Agelessness is obviously out, since it never made sense to begin with. Someone who stops aging at 30 just continues to look 30, not "ageless." It only ever worked in a book because Jordan could rely on your imagination filling in something that is physically not possible.

 

I would also imagine the whitecloaks don't believe the oaths are real. Otherwise, every time they ask an Aes Sedai if she's a darkfriend, how is she able to say no?

 

The stuff about Lan is nonsense. It's hard to read how picky people are about his portrayal, like anything less than a Chuck Norris meme is betrayal of the character. 

I always envisioned the AS agelessness as someone with too much botox, which is why they really chose the serpent symbol. Also conveniently explains their tendencies not to display emotions on their faces

 

On the AS oaths

Spoiler

Based on the Great Purge stats from book 11, any AS caught by a Whitecloak had a 1 in 4 or 5 chance of being a DF and able to lie anyway

 

And anything less than a Chuck Norris meme is a betrayal of Lan's skill; the complaints are not really about the personality changes. There's a clear sword fighting hierarchy established in the books from the average warder to Hammar, Coulin, Gawyn, Galad, Demandred, and then Lan, and as it stands, that list is at severe risk.

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

There's a clear sword fighting hierarchy established in the books from the average warder to Hammar, Coulin, Gawyn, Galad, Demandred, and then Lan, and as it stands, that list is at severe risk.

There's a fundamental difference between a swordmaster fighting another single opponent in a dual and a swordmaster handling swarms.

Lan is the best and proves it facing individuals where skill can be fairly ranked.  But even the best can't handle multiple opponents without insane luck and severe skill gaps.  There's a reason the often lauded fight fight scene in Witcher falls so flat for anyone with real fighting experience and it's that if the opponents actually rushed Geralt together he'd have been at best wounded and at worst dead.

So far we haven't seen Lan against a single opponent, we've seen him against multiple creatures that have a foot or so and a ton of muscle on him.

[AdamA]

I honestly don't get that complaint, anyway. The only time we saw Lan in a protracted sword fight was against the trollocs and he totally owned them. The actual complaint I was responding to was people saying he should been able to block 40 trollocs trying to throw spears at Moiraine while also fighting 40 trollocs with his sword at the same time. That is not something any sword fighter can do, no matter how good. Only Chuck Norris can do that.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

I honestly don't get that complaint, anyway. The only time we saw Lan in a protracted sword fight was against the trollocs and he totally owned them. The actual complaint I was responding to was people saying he should been able to block 40 trollocs trying to throw spears at Moiraine while also fighting 40 trollocs with his sword at the same time. That is not something any sword fighter can do, no matter how good. Only Chuck Norris can do that.

Similar to the "He should have blocked all the Shrapnel from Logain."  crowd.

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, AdamA said:

As for the question, Valda should clearly just ask everyone he suspects straight up "are you Aes Sedai?" The only explanation for not asking is he doesn't suspect. After all, there aren't very many Aes Sedai, so the chance of any random person you come across being one is pretty low.

I still think that Valda is a coward (proven by the tent scene with Perrin) who does not want to openly confront a possible Aes Sedai. We don't know if he has a foxhead medallion or something similar. If he does not and he goes around asking everyone if they are AS there's a high chance he would get his ass whooped or even killed. Surely an AS could convince herself to be in danger in that situation and would be free to use saidar as a weapon. And of course saidar could be used to bind him and others in place and do other non-violent stuff.

 

Edit. Of course the foxhead medallion doesn't block indirect attacks so it's not 100% safe.

Edited January 5, 2022 by DaddyFinn

[KakitaOCU]

6 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Surely an AS could convince herself to be in danger in that situation and would be free to use saidar as a weapon. And of course saidar could be used to bind him and others in place and do other non-violent stuff.

It's established the oaths work on perception.  I know if someone walked up to me with a trophy string of Great Serpent Rings and said "Are you an Aes Sedai" I'd at the least bind him in air.  (In the scenario where I can channel).  

[MasterAblar]

10 hours ago, AdamA said:

Agelessness is obviously out, since it never made sense to begin with. Someone who stops aging at 30 just continues to look 30, not "ageless." It only ever worked in a book because Jordan could rely on your imagination filling in something that is physically not possible.

 

Those aren’t actually the same thing. Channellers “slow” which causes them to look young for much longer then they normally would.

 

The agelessness is caused by the oaths, although how you would portray that I have no idea.

[Guest Testeria]

20 hours ago, AdamA said:

As for the question, Valda should clearly just ask everyone he suspects straight up "are you Aes Sedai?" The only explanation for not asking is he doesn't suspect.

 

Valda already met and killed several Aes Sedai, and they are very close to Tar Valon, and Morraine clearly wears blue ajah dress he must know about (in the book she didn't to not be recognized), and she has a warder which is typical of Aes Sedai.

 

Beautiful powerful woman with a guard should be enough to strike question actually. Maybe he is just not too bright.

 

What really worry me is that in the end he got scared of Perrin. I mean scared of Perrin? Of all people? Because he got jaundice? The whole aura of fear that Valda constructed vanished at that very moment. Now people just laugh at him saying "look it is this guy who get scared of Perrin"!

 

 

20 hours ago, AdamA said:

The stuff about Lan is nonsense. It's hard to read how picky people are about his portrayal, like anything less than a Chuck Norris meme is betrayal of the character.

 

He is just jovial extrovert with mediocre fighting and scouting skills. If he lets a girl to put a knife to his throat is unrealistic to expect him avoiding the white cloaks. People are just too attached to book Lan and expect him to act out of character (as presented in the TV show).

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Testeria
grammar

[Guest Testeria]

12 hours ago, AdamA said:

Agelessness is obviously out, since it never made sense to begin with. Someone who stops aging at 30 just continues to look 30, not "ageless."

 

Think of it as 80 year old lady with perfect skin and no wrinkle. At first sight she may look like 20 then maybe her behavior is little outdated and You think she must be older and just look very young. Then You look her in the eyes...

[AdamA]

12 hours ago, Testeria said:

 

Think of it as 80 year old lady with perfect skin and no wrinkle. At first sight she may look like 20 then maybe her behavior is little outdated and You think she must be older and just look very young. Then You look her in the eyes...

That's just the thing, though. If you describe it, I can perfectly well imagine it. But find a picture somewhere of an actual person who looks like that. Television can't just describe something and allow your imagination to fill in the gaps. Honestly, I think it's one of the ways in which books are just an inherently better medium and even the best television adaptations of great literature can't actually match their source. The Wire is still the one and only television show I have ever watched that I felt truly approached the character of great literature.

[Guest Testeria]

14 hours ago, AdamA said:

That's just the thing, though. If you describe it, I can perfectly well imagine it. But find a picture somewhere of an actual person who looks like that. Television can't just describe something and allow your imagination to fill in the gaps. Honestly, I think it's one of the ways in which books are just an inherently better medium and even the best television adaptations of great literature can't actually match their source. The Wire is still the one and only television show I have ever watched that I felt truly approached the character of great literature.

 

I don't know, I met a person like this once. She was... disturbing. She looked like 20 something and she was 60+. I'm sure they could do this with CGI, they just didn't know that they can. This one is an example from history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandra_Zajączkowa

Honore de Balzac met her when she was 82 and said he's believed she is 35.

 

But they have technical problems with such an obvious things like basic lighting so maybe it is better that they didn't try it out.

 

Still Aes Sedai incognito should at least change her colors, she did this in the books why not in the movie?

[Gothic Flame]

One of the reasons why I liked this image was because it seemed difficult to put an age to the woman in it. Add in a touch of imperious necessity to the language she uses and it becomes a perfect fit.

[Deviations]

On 1/4/2022 at 4:58 PM, AdamA said:

The stuff about Lan is nonsense. It's hard to read how picky people are about his portrayal, like anything less than a Chuck Norris meme is betrayal of the character.

Lan portrayed is not Lan as written.  Lan as written is quiet, stone faced and outwardly unemotional.  When I read him, I could feel the quiet in an in when he enters....  If you want to compare it to Chuck Norris you could, but that's not how I view Lan.  Lan's badassery prevents trouble.

 

Think Snake Pliskin meets Maximus

 

[Ralph]

2 hours ago, Testeria said:

 

I don't know, I met a person like this once. She was... disturbing. She looked like 20 something and she was 60+. I'm sure they could do this with CGI, they just didn't know that they can. 

They said they could, but it would eat a huge amount of budget to have to CGI so many frames. Same with Warders' cloaks

[Deviations]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

They said they could, but it would eat a huge amount of budget to have to CGI so many frames. Same with Warders' cloaks

Why couldn't they have done the ageless look with makeup?  Skin a little too tight, hair a little too thin without the 'lustre' of youth....

 

Catherine could be 25 here, she could be 45?

[KakitaOCU]

23 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Why couldn't they have done the ageless look with makeup?  Skin a little too tight, hair a little too thin without the 'lustre' of youth....

 

Catherine could be 25 here, she could be 45?

Mid 30's.  Aes Sedai Agelessness is not the same as looking fairly youthful.

[Deviations]

Fairly youthful is closer to agelessness than obvious age.  Sorry you didn't like my example.  My point is that they could have used make up.  Not that hard or expensive.

[Guest Testeria]

6 hours ago, Deviations said:

Lan portrayed is not Lan as written.  Lan as written is quiet, stone faced and outwardly unemotional.  When I read him, I could feel the quiet in an in when he enters....  If you want to compare it to Chuck Norris you could, but that's not how I view Lan.  Lan's badassery prevents trouble.

 

Think Snake Pliskin meets Maximus

 

 

EDIT:

While Tv show Lan is more of Heihachi Hayashida:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/SevenSamurai#folder3

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Testeria

[DaddyFinn]

25 minutes ago, Deviations said:

My point is that they could have used make up.  Not that hard or expensive.

Do we know that they didn't experiment with the agelessness? I remember vaguely that they did and decided it's not worth it. Same with the warder cloaks.

[ForsakenPotato]

There's a lot of ways to make someone seem ageless, but it usually looks really creepy and bad. Ever met someone young who has done a lot of hard drugs? Or someone old with a lot of plastic surgery? Both are hard to pin down an age, but neither feels right to me for the Aes Sedai (I mean, not that I wouldn't immediately binge Real Housewives of The White Tower).

 

Something others haven't mentioned is that Valda is a person that enjoys making other people uncomfortable, even in instances where he doesn't have the power, permission, or plans to take further action. Yeah he gets off on killing Aes Sedai but he also gets off on just making them feel like they might get hurt. There's plenty of people in the real world in positions of authority who do similar things -- cops, border control agents, etc. Most of them are just doing their job, but there's always a few who know their position gives them power to make people squirm, and sometimes worse. Maybe he doesn't go further with Moiraine because she's with Lan and co, or maybe just because he has other plans for his day, but he's not one to pass up a quick opportunity to try to scare someone. This scene seemed consistent with his character both in the show and books.

 

Similarly, in the books Valda rapes an important character because he doesn't believe he'll be held accountable, implying he has probably done similarly before and gotten away with it. It doesn't imply he rapes every woman who is detained by the Whitecloaks, or even every one he finds attractive.

Edited January 7, 2022 by ForsakenPotato
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