Perrin and Laila

[DojoToad]

17 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I'd speculate bullet point 2 is the closest possibility. (I'm Assuming bullet 3 = Perrin shipping Elyas which I don't think is going to happen)

From a story telling perspective, Faile's introduction is great for introducing exposition of what the "hunters of the horn" are, and is a great tie in for Perrin to have already been involved with finding the horn, knowing what it looks like and who has it, and keeping it secret from this girl that just keeps following him around.

Semi-related, I Faile reminds me of "Jackie" from "That 70s show".

 

IF S2 incorporates Book 2 & 3, I'd hazard a guess that they'd introduce "Faile" in the latter half of Season 2, if not the season finale, or the start of Season 3.

Yes - all 3 points were meant as alternate love interests for Perrin.  With everything else changed from book to show, I don't see Faile coming over - or at least not without major alterations.  I'm guessing more changes.

[SinisterDeath]

17 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Yes - all 3 points were meant as alternate love interests for Perrin.  

Ah, then I'd disagree about Galad shipping Perrin to. 

 

Honestly, if you think Rafe is going to make Perrin Gay because reasons, I'm surprised you're not going to go with the obvious Perrin x Gaul?

 

20 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

With everything else changed from book to show, I don't see Faile coming over - or at least not without major alterations.  I'm guessing more changes.

I think if there's going to be any major alterations to her character, it's going to be to try and make her less hated.

[DojoToad]

16 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Ah, then I'd disagree about Galad shipping Perrin to. 

 

Honestly, if you think Rafe is going to make Perrin Gay because reasons, I'm surprised you're not going to go with the obvious Perrin x Gaul?

Not necessarily gay, maybe bi.  But I did miss the obvious with Gaul.  Good catch.

 

16 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

I think if there's going to be any major alterations to her character, it's going to be to try and make her less hated.

I was not one of the haters.  Actually really liked Faile - just not the terrible Shaido arc...

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Not necessarily gay, maybe bi.  But I did miss the obvious with Gaul.  Good catch.

At this point, Gaul x Perrin is one of the "memes" of WoT/art fanfic lol.

 

9 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I was not one of the haters.  Actually really liked Faile - just not the terrible Shaido arc...

Ditto.
There are a lot of Faile haters out there, so trying to change her character to be less hated seems like the most logical thing to do if they include her in the show.

 

 

[WhiteVeils]

They've established with Laila that Perrin is primarily cis.  They've established with Nynaeve and Lan that they are not taking satisfactory cis relationships and altering them dramatically.  They established with Min that they are not swapping gender on primary characters in order to create a homosexual relationship out of a cis relationship.  I do not doubt that there will be more homosexual relationships, of course...potentially by making some of Mat's relationships bi (there certainly were book overtones there, and they've left it open in what they've shown so far), or making Elayne/Aviendha a non-exclusive homosexual relationship that is then shared with Rand, also hinted.

People's primary problems with Faile seem to entirely be about 1) the slowness of the Faile kidnapping story (which I like, but does get stretched out) or 2) the cultural expression of violence in Saldaeans which leads to more, um, spanking and slapping than we believe is appropriate, and 3) Perrin's oversensitivity to Faile's emotions of jealousy.

1 can be fixed by speeding it up, which will be /much/ easier on show, if they do that arc at all. 2 can just be removed...no one will miss it.  3) They'd have to work really hard to even show it in the first place.

Of course, writers be writers, they'll do what they want. But I'm not concerned.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

People's primary problems with Faile seem to entirely be about 1) the slowness of the Faile kidnapping story (which I like, but does get stretched out) or

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

1 can be fixed by speeding it up, which will be /much/ easier on show, if they do that arc at all

This is also why a lot of people hate Perrin's story line to.  Speeding it up or removing it can help a ton with "fixing' Perrin/Faile's arc.

 

I've said it before, but with "Laila" being fridged, I believe that course of events helps to set up Perrin's future motivations and obsession with finding and rescuing Faile, while also doubling down on the Axe vs Hammer fight Perrin has. (Will he be a destroyer, or a builder?)

 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

2) the cultural expression of violence in Saldaeans which leads to more, um, spanking and slapping than we believe is appropriate, and

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

2 can just be removed...no one will miss it.

Exactly. There are other ways they can make her culturally different from the two rivers. If they want to keep her as this pushy spoiled brat character, they can do it without making her an abuser.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

3) Perrin's oversensitivity to Faile's emotions of jealousy.

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

3) They'd have to work really hard to even show it in the first place.

Thankfully if they ever pursue that avenue of his character, it'll be a few seasons from now. We've still yet to see how they plan to deal with his sense of smell, dreaming, talking to wolves, etc.

 

As a fan of Perrin, I was disappointed with how they directed him in the latter half of the first season.
 

I think they did really well with making him into this brooding guy, constantly thinking about what happened, why it happened, beating him self up for it.

Then by the time the season ended, it was like the director read the cliff notes and had him act like the trope of the big dumb gentle giant. 

I'm really hoping his character comes out of his shell in Season 2, and perhaps Faile can pull him out of it.

[Mailman]

On 4/21/2022 at 11:56 PM, WhiteVeils said:

They've established with Laila that Perrin is primarily cis.  They've established with Nynaeve and Lan that they are not taking satisfactory cis relationships and altering them dramatically.  They established with Min that they are not swapping gender on primary characters in order to create a homosexual relationship out of a cis relationship.  I do not doubt that there will be more homosexual relationships, of course...potentially by making some of Mat's relationships bi (there certainly were book overtones there, and they've left it open in what they've shown so far), or making Elayne/Aviendha a non-exclusive homosexual relationship that is then shared with Rand, also hinted.
 

The theory that I heard and think there is a reasonable chance of being correct is that Perrin was in fact in love with Rand not Egwene. It explains the timing of his getting together with Laila, it explains the difficulty in Perrins marriage as a knowing or unknowing beard.

 

What book overtones suggested that Mat had gay or bi tendencies? Nothing I can think of of offhand gave me this impression.

[Caitlinjaime417]

In my opinion, they could have used Master or Mistress Luhhan to the same effect as Laila for Perrin's character development and pacifistic struggle in the show. (Like Brandon Sanderson said.) To me, using Laila and having him be married already just cheapens his romance with Faile. How could he possibly be ready to marry her in a year after killing his wife without serious character development rushing? Why marry Perrin off but not Rand or Mat when they're the same age? Especially when Perrin is the first to marry in the books. I feel like they may have made Faile a tough pill to swallow for new fans by pairing Perrin and Laila right out of the gate, even if their marriage seemed to be in trouble. 

[SinisterDeath]

13 minutes ago, Caitlinjaime417 said:

To me, using Laila and having him be married already just cheapens his romance with Faile. How could he possibly be ready to marry her in a year after killing his wife without serious character development rushing?

People do weird things when dealing with grief and love. Have you never heard about those retired people who remarry 6 months after becoming a widower? It's actually not that unbelievable to me.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Caitlinjaime417 said:

In my opinion, they could have used Master or Mistress Luhhan to the same effect as Laila for Perrin's character development and pacifistic struggle in the show.

They definitely could have. Either of those two characters barely make an appearance later in the series. About the only problem with axing them (pun intended), is it could potentially cause more issues down the road when Perrin Returns to the Two Rivers, than it will have by him killing a nobody character.
 

 

19 minutes ago, Caitlinjaime417 said:

Why marry Perrin off but not Rand or Mat when they're the same age? Especially when Perrin is the first to marry in the books. I feel like they may have made Faile a tough pill to swallow for new fans by pairing Perrin and Laila right out of the gate, even if their marriage seemed to be in trouble

I honestly think his accidently killing Laila, having him rush into marriage with Faile, and potentially driving her away over some petty argument only for her to get kidnapped by Aiel, sets his character up with a lot of motivation for his obsession with rescuing Faile.

[WhiteVeils]

Exactly.  What Faile can do is play exactly the same role she plays in the books:  She supports him and helps him process his grief over the death of his family.  She forces him to take care of himself and step up and face his role as a leader in his community.  That's her whole Book 4 thing.  And then she teaches him about the whole world of politics and so on that he needs to be a really strong leader.

 

The Shaido arc isn't that bad...it just is too long, and it happens during a time when we the readers ended up being desperate to find out what was in the other storylines, but were shut out of them (IE: Mat under a wall for a whole book and a half).  But the Shaido arc gives Faile a real chance to shine, and it forces Perrin to become the true uniter that he needs to be for the Last Battle.   The show can totally condense it in many ways, and I think it would be a powerful story.

[Nik]

Laila is one of those things that I understand why they did it, but I still don't like it. The reasoning makes perfect sense; I just wish they'd found a different solution.

[SilentRoamer]

Hello all, new to the forums,

Just wanted to add my thoughts in here. 

I think introducing Perrins wife and then setting up a love intereset for Perrin and Egwene was awful. Its really clear in the books that Perrin and Egwene are close but in a familial sort of relationship. There's never any hints of anything more and it serves to cheapen their relationship in my opinion. 

Having Perrin kill off his wife without much development seems a cheap way to expose the anger flaws in Perrins character. I would have done this:

 

Mat meets up with Perrin as they search for Mats family, Perrin uses his axe and goes into a berserker rage and kills a few trollocs (also setting up his physical strength which the actor just doesn't exude to me) in his rage he "almost" kills one of Mats relatives until Mat shouts at him and calms him down (which would further strengthen Mat and Perrins relationship and also mean Mats parent would not have to be character assassinated. 
 

[WhiteVeils]

Thank you for at least proposing an alternative.  That's /way/ better than many do.

 

I don't think it would have done enough of the sort of character building necessary and it wouldn't have carried the weight to make Perrin's conflicts apparent to a non-book reader audience, but your mileage may differ.

 

I also disagree that there was never hints of anything more than familial friendship between Perrin and Egwene in the books, so it wasn't 'really clear'. It's clear that Perrin isn't pursuing a relationship with Egwene, but he's not pursuing it in the show either.  Nynaeve was wrong in the show, her information was years outdated, and Rand was latching onto it to push Perrin and Egwene away.  I don't think it cheapens their relationship, because their relationship is the same.

 

You're welcome not to like it, certainly.   I don't mind it.  There are things I don't like, but I don't mind that much, and I think there are reasons for what they are doing.

[SilentRoamer]

I think the first book is clear that Perrin and Egwene have a familial relationship. They know each other very well and live closer together (as opposed to Rand living a bit more isolated). There are also Perrin PoVs where he is supportive of Rand and Egwenes relationship and his inner monologue shows nothing of jealousy. So while it is never stated categorically "Perrin only sees Egwene as a friend"  I think it is explicitly implied through Perrins on page motivations and actions. 

I just think it is a very cheap plot device and because we have had only on screen minutes the death has little impact to the viewer - I think having Perrin almost smash the heads in of Mats siblings would show the berserker rage much more than this. 

One of the main reasons was that I never saw his actions as being in a berserker frenzy, it was a momentary lapse of judgement and he was fighting for his life. Having him literally smash to a pulp the head of a Trolloc and then almost turn on the kids would have been a much stringer plot and characterisation device imo. 

As it stands I didn't see Perrins struggle with anger. If he nearly killed the kids then when they meet the Tinkers it could have been a single line "I was so enraged I almost killed the children, my anger can be dangerous" - I think part of it is because Show Perrin doesn't have the same physical impetus that book Perrin does.

I can see why they did it - it just didn't work for me. 

[DojoToad]

26 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

I just think it is a very cheap plot device and because we have had only on screen minutes the death has little impact to the viewer - I think having Perrin almost smash the heads in of Mats siblings would show the berserker rage much more than this. 
 

It was a cheap plot device.  $10 million an episode doesn't buy what it used to...

[WhiteVeils]

I don't think Perrin's problem ever was berzerker rage though.   It's a struggle within himself about a part of him that enjoys violence, but that's not being a berzerker.  He doesn't struggle with anger the way Rand does.  He's not completely out of control in the books.  But he fears that he could grow to like it too much.

 

They are changing it a bit, yes. They are going to play out the Way of the Leaf vs. the Way of the Warrior, I think, in Perrin's story. It's a theme throughout the books, and it certainly ties into Perrin's fears, but it does simplify them and tie them to a broader theme throughout the whole series, played out in people and nations. This is the story of Gaishen and Tinkers and and Aiel, writ into a personal narrative for Perrin.  Him almost killing Mat's siblings isn't the same.  He wouldn't have started out failing due to violence. If he had killed one of Mat's siblings, maybe, but it wouldn't have been as personal and that has way worse repercussions. And every other relationship would have taken longer to sketch out.

 

The truth is, we don't know how it's going to play out for Perrin.  There is nothing yet that showed they short cutted his mourning or played it badly or that they're going to.  We don't know.  He acted it well, and it certainly was a dramatic moment in the show.  People's problems with the scene have more to do with fears over what might be than what is.

 

The attraction he had with Egwene comes out pretty strongly in the scenes with Egwene and Aram.  He is jealous of Aram and acknowledges it.  If he was just familial with zero attraction, he would be happy for Egwene and Aram, or thinking more about Rand, and he doesn't.  He also tells Elyas specifically he loves her and not as a sister.  That's not familial.  That does not mean that he acts on it, or ever intends to, but you can't say the only way that can be interpreted as familial love.  A different reader might read different cues.  I read it as 'past attraction with a conscious choice never to pursue it because she is not attracted to him', which is fine and noble and worthy of praise too.

 

And, no, of course $10 million an episode doesn't buy what it used to.  There's inflation, additional costs, and the fact that not every show can be the very first to do something, and standards for the bar keep rising.  Why would you expect it to?

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

And, no, of course $10 million an episode doesn't buy what it used to.  There's inflation, additional costs, and the fact that not every show can be the very first to do something, and standards for the bar keep rising.  Why would you expect it to?

The decision to fridge Laila wasn't about money.  It was an overused/cheap plot device, lazy writing, bad decision, whatever...  Get Rafe, the 19 directors, and however many writers in a room for an hour and solve the problem.  $20K later and you're done.  Still have $9,980,000 for the rest of the episode.

Edited May 25, 2022 by DojoToad

[WhiteVeils]

She wasn't fridged.  I've seen a number of authors reviews for writers who actually specialize in the subject, and they agree she wasn't fridged.  Fridging is when a villain kills a woman to prove he is a villain and make the hero angry at him to set up the story.  Perrin killing his own wife by accident is not fridging, and it's not commonly done.  Name another recent TV series that had that happen in it.  It served to get the audience attention very quickly.  It served its purpose. Just not, maybe, the way you'd like.

[DojoToad]

9 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

She wasn't fridged.  I've seen a number of authors reviews for writers who actually specialize in the subject, and they agree she wasn't fridged.  Fridging is when a villain kills a woman to prove he is a villain and make the hero angry at him to set up the story.  Perrin killing his own wife by accident is not fridging, and it's not commonly done.  Name another recent TV series that had that happen in it.  It served to get the audience attention very quickly.  It served its purpose. Just not, maybe, the way you'd like.

I had never heard of the term fridged until this show. Learned about it here on DM. Perhaps the villain more often does the deed, but I also don’t see how Perrin couldn’t be a variation on fridging. I think he may consider himself the villain as he works through his emotions of the event. 
 

Also, I find it hilarious that there are authors/writers who specialize in fridging.  Helps explain a lot of the crap we see out there on both page and screen.

Edited May 26, 2022 by DojoToad

[WhiteVeils]

Well, authors who specialize in understanding narrative devices.

 

The term 'fridging' comes from the Green Lantern comic where the protagonist's girlfriend is killed and stuffed in a refrigerator by the antagonist to motivate them.  It does not require killing the female, but it's about abusing them in order to force the hero into action.  It doesn't even require the target to be female, or romantic partner...it's about the action of the antagonist on a third party person who doesn't have character development in order to motivate a hero to fight the villain.

 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge

 

Viewers who are uncomfortable (for reasonable reasons!) with depictions of violence against women were shocked by the scene, especially so early in the series, and I think went to the trope looking for an explanation for their discomfort. Layla was not well developed, certainly, and the scene was uncomfortable, even if it had never been done before and was not a trope.  Critics of the show latched onto the term as a criticism of the scene, though I suspect the true source of their problem was the degree of change it has from the original.  There is a certain amount of 'I hate everything about this show and need to come up with more reasons to hate it' out there, and this trope, even if it didn't actually apply if you understood it, seemed another reason.

 

In addition, just because a trope exists doesn't make it bad or cheap. A trope is a storytelling beat. NO story can be 100% unique and never use tropes...if it did, it would fall flat. Every story is built on the stories that went before it.  That's what gives them power. WOT the books have very many of them, and even if translated perfectly to screen, the TV show would require more.  Perrin has at least one in-book 'Fridging' actually done by the antagonists, which then motivates him towards action and responding with violence.  So it's not like fridging isn't part of his story anyway, just in a different place.

Edited May 26, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Nik]

It can be considered fridging under an expanded definition of the term where a female character is introduced and then killed for the sole purpose of serving a male character's arc (regardless of who does the killing). I do think it's more forgivable in a show that has many many more female characters with agency and arcs of their own. Context matters, and in this case context helps.

 

That being said, I wasn't a fan either.

[expat]

Quote

It was a cheap plot device. 

When you are adapting 12000+ pages in only 64 episodes, you need a few cheap plot devices to save time and get the emotional reaction you want without significant screen time.

 

The obvious response will be Stepin's story.  Since this is a TV program and not a book, something like Stepin's story is necessary since showing is preferable to telling.  With all the lore needed to be conveyed to the viewer, most will inevitably be told by exposition with some being able to be shoehorned into a scene or two. However, for visual flow and story texture, it's likely a good idea to tell the story of a few parts of the world's lore in a deeper and more meaningful way in a series of multiple, related scenes.  The downside is that they will be completely made-up scenes since the lore in the books is mostly introduced over long periods and time and not in a single isolated scene.  I count three such instances of detailed lore story telling so far in the series (you might have a different list): male channeling madness, the way of the leaf, and the warder bond.  I think that we all agree that channeling madness is integral to the plot and must be shown in detail.  The way of the leaf is an important secondary lore element since it drives the motivation of the Aiel, although it isn't particularly critical to driving the plot.  The warder bond is an important secondary (or maybe tertiary) lore element since it is important in some character arc's but doesn't really drive the plot directly.

 

You can certainly argue that the warder bond isn't important enough to be told in a deep way.  We don't know if they cut Stepin's story whether they pick some other lore to explore or use the time for plot development.

 

One aspect that's different in Stepin's story is that it was explored in one episode, so it's easy to begrudge the time taken on it.  The other two were explored in multiple episodes in the first year and will almost certainly be explored further in coming years, along with some other deep exploration of other, currently unknown, lore. It may be that the total time for Stepin's story will end up being less that some of the other lore elements.  It's harder to complain about wasted time if spread across multiple episodes in multiple years, so Stepin becomes the scapegoat for this type of the world building.

 

What is the real issue with Stepin?  Was it that the show wasted time with deep lore exploration that should have been spent of direct book scenes, the scenes were just badly done, or that they choose the wrong lore to deeply explore?

 

Since there has been much criticism that they are blowing off the lore altogether or half-assing the lore explanation, I think there is recognition that world/lore building is a necessary part of the show.  I know that I think that some time used to world/lore build is important, even if we all can't agree on which pieces of the world/lore best deserve the attention and screen time.

[Mailman]

On 5/25/2022 at 11:41 PM, WhiteVeils said:

Thank you for at least proposing an alternative.  That's /way/ better than many do.

 

I don't think it would have done enough of the sort of character building necessary and it wouldn't have carried the weight to make Perrin's conflicts apparent to a non-book reader audience, but your mileage may differ.

 

I also disagree that there was never hints of anything more than familial friendship between Perrin and Egwene in the books, so it wasn't 'really clear'. It's clear that Perrin isn't pursuing a relationship with Egwene, but he's not pursuing it in the show either.  Nynaeve was wrong in the show, her information was years outdated, and Rand was latching onto it to push Perrin and Egwene away.  I don't think it cheapens their relationship, because their relationship is the same.

 

You're welcome not to like it, certainly.   I don't mind it.  There are things I don't like, but I don't mind that much, and I think there are reasons for what they are doing.

When they are running from the ravens in the first book i'm fairly certain that Perrin specifically says he loves her like a sister and not romantically.

 

I still think there is a high chance that they are going to pull a switch and have Perrin actually have been in love with Rand and not Egwene in the show. 

[WhiteVeils]

31 minutes ago, Mailman said:

When they are running from the ravens in the first book i'm fairly certain that Perrin specifically says he loves her like a sister and not romantically.

 

I still think there is a high chance that they are going to pull a switch and have Perrin actually have been in love with Rand and not Egwene in the show. 

You are remembering the quote wrong.  The quote is right after the ravens, EOTW, beginning of Chapter 30.

 

Quote

 

Elyas cocked his head to one side and eyed him quizzically. "A blind man could read your face, boy.  Well, speak up. Do you hate the girl? Despise her? That's it. You were ready to kill her because you despise her, always dragging her feet, holding you back with her womanish ways."

 

"Egwene never dragged her feet in her life," he protested. "She always does her share. I don't despise her. I love her." He glared at Elyas, daring him to laugh. "Not like that. I mean, she isn't like a sister, but she and Rand...Blood and ashes! If the ravens caught us...If...I don't know."

 

 

I think you are reading this as 'That' obviously meaning romantic love, and his protest that she isn't like a sister is trying to 'shade' the relationship even if she is like a sister to Perrin.

 

But it specifically says she is not like a sister to Perrin. He specifically brings up her relationship to Rand as the reason his relationship with her is what it is.  To me, it's him trying to explain he really loves her, not like a sister, but also has made the choice not to love her/pursue her in a more romantic sense because she is in a romantic relationship with Rand and he is a good friend to both and will not interfere with Egwene and Rand's relationship by pursuing her.

 

And I always read it that way, long before the Show came out...indeed, I've read it that way since my first read.  The show does have Nynaeve force this more into the light as a point of potential confrontation with Rand, and Rand pushes, as he's pushing everyone away.  But  the show didn't whip that up whole cloth.

Edited May 31, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

You are remembering the quote wrong.  The quote is right after the ravens, EOTW, beginning of Chapter 30.

 

 

I think you are reading this as 'That' obviously meaning romantic love, and his protest that she isn't like a sister is trying to 'shade' the relationship even if she is like a sister to Perrin.

 

But it specifically says she is not like a sister to Perrin. He specifically brings up her relationship to Rand as the reason his relationship with her is what it is.  To me, it's him trying to explain he really loves her, not like a sister, but also has made the choice not to love her/pursue her in a more romantic sense because she is in a romantic relationship with Rand and he is a good friend to both and will not interfere with Egwene and Rand's relationship by pursuing her.

 

And I always read it that way, long before the Show came out...indeed, I've read it that way since my first read.  The show does have Nynaeve force this more into the light as a point of potential confrontation with Rand, and Rand pushes, as he's pushing everyone away.  But  the show didn't whip that up whole cloth.

The "Not like that" is the key for me I have always read that as he has no romantic interest in Egwene and he is having difficulty describing his exact relationship with Egwene to Elyas. She is not his kin but he still loves her but not love as in a romantic way.