book 2 spoilers Commentary by Sarah and other show people

[Maximillion]

Sarah is on Twitter trying to justify the shows many changes and Rafe's decision to basically try and tell his own version of WoT and largely ignore Robert Jordans books.

I feel sorry for her really - she says herself she had to be 'talked off the ledge' many times.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Sarah is on Twitter trying to justify the shows many changes and Rafe's decision to basically try and tell his own version of WoT and largely ignore Robert Jordans books.

I feel sorry for her really - she says herself she had to be 'talked off the ledge' many times.

 

 

Or maybe - like a high percentage of us who are here talking about it - she actually thinks that the changes are okay and understands the purpose they are meant to serve. Rafe didn't "largely ignore" the books. He made changes that he thought would make the book work better on screen. Sarah understands and accepts that. 

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Or maybe - like a high percentage of us who are here talking about it - she actually thinks that the changes are okay and understands the purpose they are meant to serve. Rafe didn't "largely ignore" the books. He made changes that he thought would make the book work better on screen. Sarah understands and accepts that. 

 

Quote

For any who are a little freaked out, listen..I totally get it. I’ve had over 18 months since I saw my first rough cut to reconcile the visual changes & longer than that for the ones from the story. If Rafe ever wants to talk about the many emotional ledges I’ve been talked down

 

That sounds like she had to be talked into thinking the changes worked 'better'

[Beidomon]

11 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Sarah is on Twitter trying to justify the shows many changes and Rafe's decision to basically try and tell his own version of WoT and largely ignore Robert Jordans books.

I feel sorry for her really - she says herself she had to be 'talked off the ledge' many times.

Not to get too far off topic, but I listened to several of Sarah’s interviews and here is what you’ve gotta understand: she one of the single biggest WOT fans on the planet. So much so that she deliberately structured the past 20 years of her life to have the chance at being in a position to actually be involved in this production (I’m not kidding about this - her words). And now she’s there but she is gonna stay in her lane and not do anything to jeopardize her access. She also has a fierce loyalty to Rafe. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

That sounds like she had to be talked into thinking the changes worked 'better'

Okay, and? What about that means she's "trying to justify" the changes? How is it different from explaining the changes? 

[notpropaganda73]

32 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Sarah is on Twitter trying to justify the shows many changes and Rafe's decision to basically try and tell his own version of WoT and largely ignore Robert Jordans books.

I feel sorry for her really - she says herself she had to be 'talked off the ledge' many times.

 

this honestly feels like a mischaracterisation of her tweets and her engagement with people on Twitter. If you also scroll through the replies to her tweets, it is really really positive, with some neutral and one or two very critical. 

 

"Largely ignore RJs books" is just... not true. 

[Maximillion]

Think some of the initial feedback she got was pretty negative by the sound of it.

She feels that people need to 'calm down'.

It's a shame the show has not made a big positive splash on the launch day.

I think they went too far with the changes and making this a 'different turning of the wheel' - I suspect there was a ripple effect here... i.e. they made one big change and everything else had to be tweaked for it to fit.. in the end making it so different that people are upset about it.

I can see, for example, why they had to cut Tam's fever dreams.  Too much of a giveaway that Rand is the DR.

I can imagine that the 18 months Sarah talks about being talked off the ledge stems from that one major change of wanting the DR to be a mystery (which will remain a mystery at least through 6 episodes - confirmed on Amazon reviews from someone who was sent all the first 6 for their review)

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

11 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

people are upset about it.

Can you name one thing these days that people aren't upset about?

 

I get bored of this "concern trolling". We've known there is a large contingent of self-proclaimed book purists who aren't going to like it. Their continued existence doesn't prove they are correct. Their concerns doesn't mean the "show is bad". 

[Agitel]

Aside from Egwene being insinuated as ta'veren and the DR having the possibility of being reborn as a girl, I think pretty much every change is justified as trying to improve early character arcs and condense information down into a limited runtime.

 

They had an 80 million dollar budget. Do we want more episodes with less budget per episode? Maybe. Maybe we'd have sacrificed a lot more on sets, visual effects, and other production costs if we did. I think there are structural issues with what the release product is, I'm not saying it's perfect, but I think the claim that Rafe doesn't care or respect the source material is just wrong.

 

Edit: Not trying to hide what I previously wrote. Just recognizing I can be more charitable.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Agitel

[Arie]

“It's a shame the show has not made a big positive splash on the launch day.“

 

I don’t think that is entirely true, and a bit limiting on perspective. Stepping back, for many it was very much a success. I am reading a lot more positive than negative, and those that are negative on it seem to try to be louder and repeatitive. Generic statements like this can be a bit misleading, and even discouraging for new people to the series.

 

[Maximillion]

13 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Can you name one thing these days that people aren't upset about?

 

I get bored of this "concern trolling". We've known there is a large contingent of self-proclaimed book purists who aren't going to like it. Their continued existence doesn't prove they are correct. Their concerns doesn't mean the "show is bad". 

 

There are some people who don't like what they are seeing in this adaption.  The expectations were very high - they marketed the hell out of this thing and tapped into the WoT fan base to promote the show.

Is it 'concern trolling' to have a view that the show is poorly written or rushed or whatever ?  Or are we only to say how wonderfully brilliant it all is?

 

I agree with Daniel Greene - it's a soft 7 - and that is not going to be good enough for the show to last till the end of the story.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Maximillion

[mogi68]

20 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

I can see, for example, why they had to cut Tam's fever dreams.  Too much of a giveaway that Rand is the DR.

 

 

I disagree. The concept that the Dragon Reborn was born outside of the Two Rivers didn't even come up in the first 3 episodes - a newcomer wouldn't even necessarily think that being born elsewhere is important.

 

There was little gained by cutting the fever dream, and we lost accurate characterization of Rand. He still thinks that Tam is his father

 

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Can you name one thing these days that people aren't upset about?

 

I get bored of this "concern trolling". We've known there is a large contingent of self-proclaimed book purists who aren't going to like it. Their continued existence doesn't prove they are correct. Their concerns doesn't mean the "show is bad". 

 

The Moiraine/Egwene testing scene is getting positive feedback.

[Arthellion]

11 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Aside from Egwene being insinuated as ta'veren and the DR having the possibility of being reborn as a girl, I think pretty much every change is justified as trying to improve early character arcs and condense information down into a limited runtime.

 

They had an 80 million dollar budget. Do we want more episodes with less budget per episode? Maybe. Maybe we'd have sacrificed a lot more on sets, visual effects, and other production costs if we did. I think there are structural issues with what the release product is, I'm not saying it's perfect, but I think the claim that Rafe doesn't care or respect the source material is just... well... bitter.

I greatly enjoyed the first 3 episodes...I do think the series would strongly benefit from being 10-12 episodes longer.  Once they get the pacing down this will be an epic tier show. 

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, mogi68 said:

 

I disagree. The concept that the Dragon Reborn was born outside of the Two Rivers didn't even come up in the first 3 episodes - a newcomer wouldn't even necessarily think that being born elsewhere is important.

 

There was little gained by cutting the fever dream, and we lost accurate characterization of Rand. He still thinks that Tam is his father

 

I meant more that if they took the time to do something like the fever dream in a scene it would have given Rand too much weighting against the others - it would have been a dead give away.

 

[Katherine]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Can you name one thing these days that people aren't upset about?

 

I get bored of this "concern trolling". We've known there is a large contingent of self-proclaimed book purists who aren't going to like it. Their continued existence doesn't prove they are correct. Their concerns doesn't mean the "show is bad". 

I see complaints in two camps. 

 

Readers who weren't prepared for the changes (had to talk my brother and sister off a ledge last night). 

 

 

And people critical of the execution of the storyline (pacing, writing dialogue). 

 

Neither group are "trolls". 

[DaddyFinn]

32 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Think some of the initial feedback she got was pretty negative by the sound of it.

She feels that people need to 'calm down'.

Reddit and Facebook are full of trolls and Darkfriends according to fans who are in those groups/subreddits. They are probably the ones giving 1/10 scores and spreading hate all over the place.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Reddit and Facebook are full of trolls and Darkfriends according to fans who are in those groups/subreddits. They are probably the ones giving 1/10 scores and spreading hate all over the place.

 

Wow - not thinking the show was good is hateful trolling?

 

Ok, fine - it was super.  Really brilliant.

?

 

[Elder_Haman]

23 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Is it 'concern trolling' to have a view that the show is poorly written or rushed or whatever ?

No. I don't mind that view. In fact I have expressed negative opinions on both of the first two episodes.

 

Concern trolling is, "Sarah is on Twitter trying to justify the changes" because "people are upset". It's trying to validate your opinion that the show is bad by means of a non-sequitur. Sarah talking about the show on Twitter is expected. People disagreeing with the changes is expected. Sarah engaging with those people is expected.

 

But your framing is meant to portray some sort of massive backlash against the show when it has audience scores of 82% fresh on RT and 7.2 on metacritic. 

[Katherine]

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Reddit and Facebook are full of trolls and Darkfriends according to fans who are in those groups/subreddits. They are probably the ones giving 1/10 scores and spreading hate all over the place.

 

 

I will forever refer to internet a**holes as "trolls and darkfriends". 

 

 

Thanks for that?

[Maximillion]

17 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. I don't mind that view. In fact I have expressed negative opinions on both of the first two episodes.

 

Concern trolling is, "Sarah is on Twitter trying to justify the changes" because "people are upset". It's trying to validate your opinion that the show is bad by means of a non-sequitur. Sarah talking about the show on Twitter is expected. People disagreeing with the changes is expected. Sarah engaging with those people is expected.

 

But your framing is meant to portray some sort of massive backlash against the show when it has audience scores of 82% fresh on RT and 7.2 on metacritic. 

 

Her twitter comments are specifically about her having to come to terms with the changes over the last 18 months in order to understand them for the good of the show.  

She is asking people to watch it again and process what they might have missed.

She herself admits to 'tantrums' along the way - maybe she was 'concern trolling' Rafe?

Also - 'for anyone who is a little freaked out - look, I get it'

'personally I would love more time on episodes'

'I am glad I have got super thick skin'

'I wasn't disheartened by some of the reaction'

 

I could go on.

This was a not a victory lap on an overwhelmingly positive response.

Clearly many are not positive - and it is understandable why. 

 

She may have had 18 months to come to terms with the show, but the audience who experienced it last night have not.

 

As for ratings - 95-100% on RT is a good score, not 82%

WoT is one of the worst ranked shows - by critics - on New TV Tonight on RT

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

So what was your point in bringing it up? Other than to point out the blindingly obvious fact that some people don't like the changes?

[Maximillion]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

So what was your point in bringing it up? Other than to point out the blindingly obvious fact that some people don't like the changes?

 

Discussing feedback to the person who was supposed to be 'gatekeeping' the story - whys that not relevant the day after the show has aired?

 

Our own opinions are all well and good, but what the wider public thinks will be the determining factor on whether this show continues.

 

Reviews are starting to land now and Variety, of example, mirrors much of the same criticisms.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

but what the wider public thinks will be the determining factor on whether this show continues.

Right. Which brings me right back to the original point - you set about to frame this "Sarah is on her back foot trying to justify changes to an angry mob on Twitter" - in order to bolster the false impression that the "wider public" thinks the show is trash.

 

Concern trolling.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Right. Which brings me right back to the original point - you set about to frame this "Sarah is on her back foot trying to justify changes to an angry mob on Twitter" - in order to bolster the false impression that the "wider public" thinks the show is trash.

 

Concern trolling.

 

She clearly was on the back foot.

I did not say the wider public thought the show was trash - you made that up.

 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Maximillion said:

I did not say the wider public thought the show was trash

 

No. You heavily implied it:

 

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Rafe's decision to basically try and tell his own version of WoT and largely ignore Robert Jordans books.

Or are you trying to say this was some sort of "neutral take"?