On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, TheMountain said:

Min's age in the show is definitely an interesting choice then..

Only if the actor doesn't appear to be within a few years of Rand. Actors can often credibly play a character that is older/younger than they are. 

 

But the age of the character is important. A 50-year old character shouldn't look 20 or vice versa.

[MasterAblar]

There are rarely any passages that specifically mention what ethnicity characters are, or rather would be seen as in our world. 

It's typically just comparisons or vague terms that are unclear if they are specifically about the skin tone or the overall appearance of a character.

 

Regardless it has virtually no impact whatsoever on the story so its mainly an issue of being able to picture the book character as the actor chosen. Which in my opinion gets easier with time. I think Madeleine Madden is 100% believable as Egwene but she well indeed never ressemble exactly what I think the book Egwene is meant to look like. That's ok.

Edited November 10, 2021 by MasterAblar

[notpropaganda73]

8 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

There's so much incredibly wrong with what you just typed, I don't even know where to begin.

 

Go re-read the chapters again, and actually pay attention.

Actually go research the actor. Your prejudices are showing.

Thank you, it has been a long time since I read the books to be honest so I was really struggling to remember how Egwene was described. A quick google brings me to this reddit post from 9 years ago discussing character ethnicity: https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/19ynwl/how_darkskinned_are_two_rivers_folk/

 

The fact there is such a discussion within that post about possible skin complexion in the Two Rivers, it is pretty wild to me that there is such strength of feeling over the casting of Egwene. 

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Your prejudices are showing.

So she's Aboriginal/Australian. That doesn't change the substance of my opinion in the slightest. I'll refer to her as such from now on, and I'll no doubt rue this moment when St. Peter sends me to hell for mischaracterizing the race of a multimillionaire (poor girl!)

 

To be clear, Madeline Madden could do a great job, but so could someone else who more closely matched most people's image of Egwene from the books. (If you don't believe me, just google "Egwene fan art" and check out all the results from before the casting was announced.)

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Min's age in the show is definitely an interesting choice then..

Her actor is closer to her book age, than 50 years is to 20.
Book Rand is 3 years younger than Min. (20 to 23)

Kae Alexander is ~36. We don't know if they are having her play a ~30 year old Min, or a ~36  year old min.
50-20= 30
36-23=13

You don't believe every actor that's played a highschool student were all ~18, do you?

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Thank you, it has been a long time since I read the books to be honest so I was really struggling to remember how Egwene was described. A quick google brings me to this reddit post from 9 years ago discussing character ethnicity: https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/19ynwl/how_darkskinned_are_two_rivers_folk/

 

The fact there is such a discussion within that post about possible skin complexion in the Two Rivers, it is pretty wild to me that there is such strength of feeling over the casting of Egwene. 

 

There is a pretty massive spread between pale as the scandinavian looking Aiel, and Tuon or the seafolk. Two River people are somewhere in the middle. Where is hard to say. Different passages say they seem lighter, some would suggest darker, but its impossible to say how light or dark exactly. Regardless doesn't have much to do with the TV show since it was clearly decided that the Two Rivers was not homogenous.

[Deadsy]

9 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

So she's Aboriginal/Australian. That doesn't change the substance of my opinion in the slightest. I'll refer to her as such from now on, and I'll no doubt rue this moment when St. Peter sends me to hell for mischaracterizing the race of a multimillionaire (poor girl!)

 

To be clear, Madeline Madden could do a great job, but so could someone else who more closely matched most people's image of Egwene from the books. (If you don't believe me, just google "Egwene fan art" and check out all the results from before the casting was announced.)

 

 

It continues to amaze me how people think it is so easy to cast good actors that they can just simply pick someone that matches the exact description in the books (dark features like Nynaeve), and this is adding an extra level of craziness where you go off of what you think people think Egwene looks like. Lots of people think Tuon is white.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Deadsy

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

So she's Aboriginal/Australian. That doesn't change the substance of my opinion in the slightest.

You can't even get the actors background right. Which means you perpetuated an ignorant statement as if it was fact.

 

 

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I'll refer to her as such from now on, and I'll no doubt rue this moment when St. Peter sends me to hell for mischaracterizing the race of a multimillionaire (poor girl!)

Jealous much?

 

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

To be clear, Madeline Madden could do a great job, but so could someone else who more closely matched most people's image of Egwene from the books. (If you don't believe me, just google "Egwene fan art" and check out all the results from before the casting was announced.)

I've seen fan art where Perrin was a flamboyantly gay man. Fan art doesn't mean anything. Casting hopefuls don't mean crap, if they never applied.
 

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

It continues to amaze me how easily some people think it is to cast good actors that they can pick someone that matches the exact description in the books (dark features like Nynaeve), and this is adding an extra level of craziness where you go off of what you think people think Egwene looks like. Lots of people think Tuon is white.

I fancast the model Khoundia Diop to play Tuon. I have no idea if she can even act. She could be absolute trash as an actor. But she fits my head-cannon. 

[Ryan al'Thor]

4 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

It continues to amaze me how easily some people think it is to cast good actors that they can pick someone that matches the exact description in the books (dark features like Nynaeve), and this is adding an extra level of craziness where you go off of what you think people think Egwene looks like. Lots of people think Tuon is white.

People think Tuon is white? LMAO

[Deadsy]

1 minute ago, Ryan al'Thor said:

People think Tuon is white? LMAO

 

 

I've seen the comment multiple times over the years and it always gets corrected. There is a lot more fan art now and it mostly depicts her correctly, but I remember seeing fan art where she was white too. 

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

The fact there is such a discussion within that post about possible skin complexion in the Two Rivers, it is pretty wild to me that there is such strength of feeling over the casting of Egwene.

I again point to fan art for a representation of what most people thought Egwene looked like casting announcement. 

 

Then there's the gaslighting. Like, are people not allowed to have an opinion? Am I only allowed to have opinions on set design and costuming or casting so long as it's Rand or Perrin or Mat or one of the other white characters, but the second it comes to the non-white characters it's off limits? 

 

The obsession with Egwene's casting is rooted entirely in the rabid, defensive response to any suggestion that Madeline Madden doesn't look like Egwene. 

 

I don't like Lan's casting. He's leaner than I imagined. No one cares. But the second I'm like, "Egwene is way darker skinned than I imagined" people just fly off the handle. 

[DaddyFinn]

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I've seen fan art where Perrin was a flamboyantly gay man. Fan art doesn't mean anything. Casting hopefuls don't mean crap, if they never applied.

This was my headcanon after I saw this picture. Good luck finding a similar looking actor lol

 

[Deadsy]

Just now, swollymammoth said:

I again point to fan art for a representation of what most people thought Egwene looked like casting announcement. 

 

Then there's the gaslighting. Like, are people not allowed to have an opinion? Am I only allowed to have opinions on set design and costuming or casting so long as it's Rand or Perrin or Mat or one of the other white characters, but the second it comes to the non-white characters it's off limits? 

 

The obsession with Egwene's casting is rooted entirely in the rabid, defensive response to any suggestion that Madeline Madden doesn't look like Egwene. 

 

I don't like Lan's casting. He's leaner than I imagined. No one cares. But the second I'm like, "Egwene is way darker skinned than I imagined" people just fly off the handle. 

 

 

You're literally allowed to have an opinion right now. You're stating it. The people who think you're totally in the wrong are also allowed to state that opinion. You seem to expect you're going state your opinion and then only people who are happy about it and agree with you are going to reply.

[swollymammoth]

13 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I've seen fan art where Perrin was a flamboyantly gay man. Fan art doesn't mean anything. Casting hopefuls don't mean crap, if they never applied.

You're kidding yourself here. Absolutely kidding yourself. One piece of fan art or even a small subsection of Gay Perrin fanart might exist, but to pretend as if there are not broad trends in the ways that people chose to depict their favorite characters and that these depictions are not generally indicative of the fandom's concept of that character is asinine in the extreme. 

 

Most fanart has Egwene as waaaay lighter skinned that Madeline Madden. This is a good indication that most people imagined her that way. This should not be contentious among circles where everyone present has a functioning brain. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You're kidding yourself here. Absolutely kidding yourself. One piece of fan art or even a small subsection of Gay Perrin fanart might exist, but to pretend as if there are not broad trends in the ways that people chose to depict their favorite characters and that these depictions are not generally indicative of the fandom's concept of that character is asinine in the extreme. 

Fan

Art

Is

Not
Cannon

 

How much WoT Fan Art have you seen coming out of Japan? Africa? Pakistan? South America?

How much WoT Fan Art have you seen that originates from Western Europe and the USA?

 

  

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Most fanart has Egwene as waaaay lighter skinned that Madeline Madden. This is a good indication that most people imagined her that way. This should not be contentious among circles where everyone present has a functioning brain. 

Go read the book and quote chapter and verse where it describes Egwene as a White woman of Broadly European descent?

[DaddyFinn]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

Most fanart has Egwene as waaaay lighter skinned that Madeline Madden. This is a good indication that most people imagined her that way. This should not be contentious among circles where everyone present has a functioning brain. 

It's pretty common to imagine characters as white-skinned if their skin color is not mentioned specifically. I sure did so and was wrong with some of them.

[swollymammoth]

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I fancast the model Khoundia Diop to play Tuon. I have no idea if she can even act. She could be absolute trash as an actor. But she fits my head-cannon. 

This lady looks like a perfect Tuon. But like, what if we cast a Latina woman instead? 

[Deadsy]

4 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

You're kidding yourself here. Absolutely kidding yourself. One piece of fan art or even a small subsection of Gay Perrin fanart might exist, but to pretend as if there are not broad trends in the ways that people chose to depict their favorite characters and that these depictions are not generally indicative of the fandom's concept of that character is asinine in the extreme. 

 

Most fanart has Egwene as waaaay lighter skinned that Madeline Madden. This is a good indication that most people imagined her that way. This should not be contentious among circles where everyone present has a functioning brain. 

 

 

It would also be ridiculously stupid to go off what you think the fans picture the characters as, since that would bias the characters toward whoever is reading the series and what their defaults are. The best way to cast is go with the actor that best portrays the character, and if there's a tie go with the one that looks closest to the actual book description.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, swollymammoth said:

This lady looks like a perfect Tuon. But like, what if we cast a Latina woman instead? 

At least she might have a Texan accent?

Besides which... You're aware that there are in fact.. Black-Latinos, right? And that Latino isn't a "race", so much as a descriptor of someone who's family originated from Latin America...which is a pretty diverse area.

[Arthellion]

 

I have serious issues with Bela being a dark horse. Entirely too woke and completely misrepresentative of her role in the story. 

 

?

[swollymammoth]

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Fan

Art

Is

Not
Cannon

Neither is Egwene being an Aboriginal woman, and yet everyone seems to defend it like it is. 

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

I have serious issues with Bela being a dark horse. Entirely too woke and completely misrepresentative of her role in the story. 

 

?

Bela let's Machin Shin out regularly..

 

Spoiler

In NY comic con interview Madeleine said that Bela farts a LOT

 

[mogi68]

12 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

This lady looks like a perfect Tuon. But like, what if we cast a Latina woman instead? 

 

You're beating a dead horse here bro - we have bigger fish to fry.  A worse minefield, IMO, resides in the following:

 

1. Altering in-universe cosmology/metaphysics for extra-universal reasons

2. Dialogue not reflecting conversations/themes that are in the books

3. Introducing plot points that are not in the books

 

That's what I am concerned with, and what actually will make a difference as to the quality of the adaptation, not that Egwene is slightly too tan as compared to my headcanon. Yeah, Aragorn could have been a little rougher looking in LOTR, but what really mattered to me was that they made him the reluctant hero and not the uncrowned king-in-exile that he was in the novels

Edited November 10, 2021 by mogi68

[Katherine]

44 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Characters whose skin/hair/eye color and height is important to the plot:

 

-Rand

-Maybe someone else, don't remember

The rest of the Aiel.  They should be homogenous. Though TBF I always  had trouble picturing pale red-heads in the deserts. My brain always pictured them with dark skin even though that was completely backward.