On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[SinisterDeath]

5 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

The Stars Wars franchise.

While critically and commercially successful I dare say most here will concede that they could have done better. (And that's putting that as nicely as possible.)

The fan base could have done better to.

 

The Star Wars Fanbase is incredibly toxic, and full of gen X Incels. 

Several Cast members quit social media entirely because of that toxicity. 

 

Many here probably don't remember the utter outrage over a black storm trooper.

The outrage over a pink haired starship captain that ended with one of the coolest scenes in the new trilogy (which also caused a lot of... "why isn't this a more common tactic?!")

Did the movies have problems? For sure. I blame Disney, not the actors.

 

[mogi68]

You're talking about millions of people. The people crying on twitter about John Boyega was a vocal minority of trolls, and not representative of the population as a whole.

 

With that being said, eliminating 40 years of canonical stories with the stroke of a pen was not a good way to gain the trust of the fanbase. Do that, and then bungle a trilogy of films, and you've got a fine soup of discontent

[AusLeviathan]

40 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Many here probably don't remember the utter outrage over a black storm trooper.

I was on several Star Wars fan forums in the weeks leading up to TFA release and I can tell you the hardcore fan base were very excited over the idea of a black lead in a Star Wars movie who would become a Jedi. They were however less excited when it was confirmed a week before release that it was in fact a woman who would become a Jedi and was the real lead of the movie.

 

The lesson to learn is this. The early marketing lead the fans to think Finn would be the hero of the story and even though later marketing did give some focus to Rey, the fact that Finn was shown using a Lightsaber cemented the expectation that he was the lead. That expectation being subverted poisoned the movie and the characters for many and the perception of Rey as a Mary Sue resulted (even though she didn't really do much more than Luke in the Original Trilogy and did in fact have flaws).

 

We see a similar mistake being made with WOT but in reverse. Now the marketing is targeting women and trying to sell this as a feminist series they'll be interested in, complete with Egwene, Moiraine and Nynaeve getting a lot of strong focus and hints that Egwene is the lead. Will people react the same way they did to Star Wars when it's revealed that the real hero is the guy who didn't really stand out much in the marketing? I suspect it's possible.

Edited November 11, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[DaddyFinn]

12 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

That expectation being subverted poisoned the movie and the characters for many and the perception of Rey as a Mary Sue resulted (even though she didn't really do much more than Luke in the Original Trilogy and did in fact have flaws).

 

I have not seen the last two movies but didn't Rey learn everything pretty much instantly and without a proper training? She used Force in ways that were "impossible" in canon. /ot

[SinisterDeath]

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

I was on several Star Wars fan forums in the weeks leading up to TFA release and I can tell you the hardcore fan base were very excited over the idea of a black lead in a Star Wars movie who would become a Jedi. They were however less excited when it was confirmed a week before release that it was in fact a woman who would become a Jedi and was the real lead of the movie.

Outside of Forums, Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit there were innumerable complaints from trolls that fueled the toxicity.

 

20 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

The lesson to learn is this. The early marketing lead the fans to think Finn would be the hero of the story and even though later marketing did give some focus to Rey, the fact that Finn was shown using a Lightsaber cemented the expectation that he was the lead. That expectation being subverted poisoned the movie and the characters for many and the perception of Rey as a Mary Sue resulted

I do recall many people being upset after the film released that his character wasn't force sensitive, and the director/writers confirming he wasn't. (One of the bigger mistakes they did, given the ending of the 2nd film? where they implied a literal child army of force sensitive kids that just went nowhere?)

 

22 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

 

We see a similar mistake being made with WOT but in reverse. Now the marketing is targeting women and trying to sell this as a feminist series they'll be interested in, complete with Egwene, Moiraine and Nynaeve getting a lot of strong focus and hints that Egwene is the lead. Will people react the same way they did to Star Wars when it's revealed that the real hero is the guy who didn't really stand out much in the marketing? I suspect it's possible.

This is harder to say. We already have book fans abandoning the show because of this, even though we know Rand is still the Dragon. Will people who've only seen the show abandon it when they find out the male hero trope is intact? Or will they stay because we have 7 heroes of mixed genders with their own adventures?

[mogi68]

At least Egwene has a satisfying story arc. Finn's character was squandered in TLJ, and by TROS he had little to do except chase after the lead and be comic relief

[AusLeviathan]

29 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I have not seen the last two movies but didn't Rey learn everything pretty much instantly and without a proper training? She used Force in ways that were "impossible" in canon. /ot

Kylo saves her a few times in the last two movies and she comes off as strong but not well trained which is I think what they were going for, she doesn't really do anything deemed impossible from my memory.

 

Notably her biggest moment in the movies is during the climax of the last film and is a result of her being supported with the Force by all the dead Jedi.

 

19 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Will people who've only seen the show abandon it when they find out the male hero trope is intact?

The question is will people watching because they were sold on a woman learning magic in a society where women protect the world remain interested when it's revealed that the world's only hope is a man.

 

See this is where subverting expectations is tricky and the audience reaction will likely rely on just how far they play into the whole mystery and how much they make it seem that Egwene is the Dragon Reborn.

 

If they only lean enough into it so that it's believable to Egwene and set it up so that Rand being the Dragon Reborn is something that creates a strong conflict in Egwene (between concern for Rand and having lost what she thought might have been her purpose) then they might be able to pull it off because then subverting the expectation would have accomplished something and added to her character and plot.

Edited November 11, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Gothic Flame]

52 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

the perception of Rey as a Mary Sue resulted (even though she didn't really do much more than Luke in the Original Trilogy and did in fact have flaws).

Perhaps.

Luke was better written for the time the movie was presented.

The writing for Rey was fairly hamfisted. And her upbringing made no sense even after the big reveal.

[Rose]

8 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Perhaps.

Luke was better written for the time the movie was presented.

The writing for Rey was fairly hamfisted. And her upbringing made no sense even after the big reveal.

 

I'm confused. Are you saying that you hold the portrayal of Luke to a lower standard than Rey's because it was written several decades earlier? Does this mean that you think the writing of the sequels should have been updated to conform to modern expectations? So it's okay, then, to change things sometimes to adapt to the times?

Edited November 11, 2021 by Rose

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Rose said:

 

I'm confused. Are you saying that you hold the portrayal of Luke to a lower standard than Rey's because it was written several decades earlier? Does this mean that you think the writing of the sequels should have been updated to conform to modern expectations? So it's okay, then, to change things sometimes to adapt to the times?

That movie didn't age well for me.

These days the demand is for more detailed characterization. Rey makes no sense to me because her way of life is hand-to-mouth.  A character in those circumstances are typically opportunistic...more Han "I shot first" Solo, than Luke "I'm looking towards the horizon for a heroic adventure" Skywalker.

[Skipp]

2 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

From some of the leaks I've heard there is still no mention of saidin or saidar, just the One power.  

 

The offical soundtrack has a song called "Noriv al Zaffid" or translated "Two halves of One Whole".  It is possible they don't refer to them as Saidar and Saidin in season 1 but they do seem to be working with the 2 halves.

[TheDreadReader]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

The offical soundtrack has a song called "Noriv al Zaffid" or translated "Two halves of One Whole".  It is possible they don't refer to them as Saidar and Saidin in season 1 but they do seem to be working with the 2 halves.

 

One of the challenges for some, I think, is whether the words "saidin" and "saidar" appear in the show.   The show may never use those exact words to describe the two halves but does that really matter if the effects of the one power are shown?

 

Think of it like traffic stop signs.  Every country does them a little differently but you can generally tell what a stop sign is even if you can't read the language that spells out the word "stop".

 

 

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

One of the challenges for some, I think, is whether the words "saidin" and "saidar" appear in the show.   The show may never use those exact words to describe the two halves but does that really matter if the effects of the one power are shown?

 

Think of it like traffic stop signs.  Every country does them a little differently but you can generally tell what a stop sign is even if you can't read the language that spells out the word "stop".

 

 

I certainly understand leaving them out of any marketing material.   I am personally hoping they include the words at some point, whether that be season 1 or later.

[Gothic Flame]

13 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

One of the challenges for some, I think, is whether the words "saidin" and "saidar" appear in the show.   The show may never use those exact words to describe the two halves but does that really matter if the effects of the one power are shown?

Umm.. I guess the "forgotten sign" really has been forgotten.

[TheDreadReader]

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

Umm.. I guess the "forgotten sign" really has been forgotten.

 

That's actually part of my point.  Stop signs are generally red across all cultures. The "forgotten sign" is the property of redness.  The variations in the shade of red (the specific words saidin/saidar) doesn't remove the redness.   The "forgotten sign" can still exist roughly as it does in the books without referencing the specific words as along as there is a discernible difference in accessing the power.

 

 

 

 

[Maximillion]

On 11/10/2021 at 2:25 AM, Elder_Haman said:

What I keep coming back to is this:

• If your concern is that they are making the show "woke" and;
• Your definition of "woke" is seeing lots of different cultures and people represented, the portrayal of strong aggressive women who don't fit traditional gender stereotypes, and the inclusion of gay and lesbian characters and sexual relationships;
• But you love RJ's worldbuilding.

How do you not understand that Wheel of Time was "woke" when it was written?

 

• There are tons and tons of cultural differences in RJ's Wheel of Time;
• There are strong, aggressive women who don't fit traditional gender stereotypes in RJ's Wheel of Time;
• There are portrayals of many different cultural ideas surrounding sex and sexuality - including canonically gay and lesbian characters and polyamorous relationships;
• There are nods to virtually every modern religious tradition and mythology adapted from incredibly diverse places = including Norse mythology, Arthurian legend and others too numerous to list.

 

If a fictional world exists where one can simultaneously accomplish a LotR/GoT level adaptation and meet "woke" ideals of diversity and inclusion without significantly altering the basic structures of the text, that world is the world of the Wheel of Time. 

 

If your concern is that they are going to preach at us through the writing, please stop complaining about it until the show is out and we can have an evidenced based discussion about the subject rather than the same tired speculating based on incomplete information.

 

You have a really bad take on what the definition of 'woke' is.

 

The only people who would be against a lot of cultures and people being represented, or strong/agressive women, or gays, lesbians or any other kind of sexuality are the kind of people we could do with less of, frankly.

 

None of these things have ANYTHING to do with people's issue around 'wokeness'.

 

What you've done is created a 'woke' = good, 'anti-woke' = bad set up to build the rest of your argument. It's very disingenuous. It's the kind of approach that has caused a lot of division. 

It doesn't stand because the issue with 'wokeness' has nothing much at all to do with the things you mention.

 

You are correct that WoT has all the things you mentioned and it's all the better for it.  

 

The complaints with the woke agenda is the extremist push across every single form of media to the extent it permeates everything in life to the detriment of those elements of society that do NOT fit with agenda.

It is a destroyer of culture not an enhancement of culture because at it's core it is exclusive, not inclusive. It's a retaliatory movement - one which uses political and cultural force to subdue.  It is not looking for balance or harmony.

 

If WoT is being changed just as another tool to push the agenda to the detriment of the actual story, that is a bad thing, not a good thing. The more extreme elements of this agenda are really quite toxic and anything that panders to it is no more than tacit acceptance of the madness.  I could go into examples of the madness, but I'd rather not on this forum,  Suffice to say, some of the loudest 'woke' voices act like they have spent too long wielding Saidin.

 

That the DR could be a woman is not even the main issue, it's the signal that sends that WoT is just another piece of propaganda.  That is something many, fairly in my view, want to avoid... or at least wait to see whether WoT is worth watching.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Maximillion

[Ralph]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

You have a really bad take on what the definition of 'woke' is.

 

The only people who would be against a lot of cultures and people being represented, or strong/agressive women, or gays, lesbians or any other kind of sexuality are the kind of people we could do with less of, frankly.

 

None of this things have ANYTHING to do with people's issue around 'wokeness'.

 

What you've done is created a 'woke' = good, 'anti-woke' = bad set up to build the rest of your argument. It's very disingenuous. 

It doesn't stand because the issue with 'wokeness' has nothing much at all to do with the things you mention.

 

You are correct that WoT has all the things you mentioned and it's all the better for it.  

 

The complaints with the woke agenda is the extremist push across every single form of media to the extent it permeates everything in life to the detriment of those elements of society that do NOT fit with agenda.

It is a destroyer of culture not an enhancement of culture because at it's core it is exclusive, not inclusive. It's a retaliatory movement - one which uses political and cultural force to subdue.

 

If WoT is being changed just as another tool to push the agenda to the detriment of the actual story, that is a bad thing, not a good thing. The more extreme elements of this agenda are really quite toxic and anything that panders to it is not more than tacit acceptance of the madness.  I could go into examples of the madness, but I'd rather not on this forum,  Suffice to say, some of the loudest 'woke' voices act like they have spent too long wielding Saidin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think many people would disagree with any of this. What people are questioning is why the type of change we have seen is being perceived as an indicator of this

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

If WoT is being changed just as another tool to push the agenda to the detriment of the actual story, that is a bad thing, not a good thing.

Show me where I’ve said otherwise. 

[Maximillion]

9 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I don't think many people would disagree with any of this. What people are questioning is why the type of change we have seen is being perceived as an indicator of this

 

 

I have a view on why that is - at least for me.

It's quite simple... I have seen too much of it.  Too many shows ruined with ill advised (or agenda based) political and cultural lecturing.

At first, my reaction was 'hmm that's an odd bit of dialogue or an odd story arc'.  After a while , seeing the same stuff over and over again in so many shows I have become very wary of trusting any show not to make it's sole purpose to push an agenda.

So, it's a once bitten (well many times bitten), twice shy kind of feeling.

Let me give an example; I like stories about artists coming from nowhere and making it big, so I tried to watch Little Voice on Apple TV.  3 episodes in it was so polluted with crazy dialogue about perceived social issues it was no longer about the story any more.  Totally ruined.  Dialogue just awkwardly injected into he show to preach. I had to stop watching it.  

I fear that is going to happen with my favourite story of all time.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Maximillion

[Maximillion]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Show me where I’ve said otherwise. 

 

I didn't say you did.

 

I said you set the thread up in a very poor way, IMO, that does not get close to the issue of the objections to 'wokeness'.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Maximillion

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

I said you set the thread up in a very poor way,

I’d suggest that the number of replies and resulting discussion proves otherwise. And if you’ve been paying attention, I acknowledged the reductive nature of the original post and pointed out its purpose. 

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’d suggest that the number of replies and resulting discussion proves otherwise. And if you’ve been paying attention, I acknowledged the reductive nature of the original post and pointed out its purpose. 

 

Fair enough.

[Maximillion]

Now that Rafe has confirmed that the DR is Rand, I wonder how that is going to play with the woke crowd who will want it to be Egwene?  Will they be disappointed?  Will they be upset that they were misled?

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Maximillion

[Deadsy]

15 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Now that Rafe has confirmed that the DR is Rand, I wonder how that is going to play with the woke crowd who will want it to be Egwene?  Will they be disappointed?  Will they be upset that they were misled?

 

I'm sorry, but this is silly. It isn't "woke" to want a female hero, especially when you've grown up having very few of those.

That said, I really doubt many at all will care. By the end of season 1 it will be obvious that all of the EF (except maybe Mat) have a very important role to play in the story.

[BeTheBud]

 I'd just like to hop in and say how much I appreciate the fact that I can find a thoughtful, ongoing discussion about this. I mostly used Reddit before discovering these forums, but this thread might singlehandedly move me away from that platform.

 

I personally am OK with some changes being made, so long as they are executed well. I do think there some things that cross the line such as making Rand no longer the Dragon Reborn. This is because, for a first adaptation, I generally prefer it to be relatively faithful to the source material. If this were the 2nd Wheel of Time we were getting, then I say go crazy, mix things up. However, I simply don't think they will do something this drastic.

 

The thing that has me a bit worried a bit more is what a few have mentioned in this thread, that of poor execution on the whole male vs female thing. I think the showrunner has at least the understanding of the source material to not make this, a women (Aes Sedei) good, men bad story. The fears expressed by some people with regard to the way Moiraine discusses how the Breaking occured (i.e. how it was solely the fault of men), fail to take in that this is coming from an Aes Sedei who has inherited a culture that for thousands of years has feared men who can channel.

 

Still, I do worry that a lot of the subtlety will be lost in translation. This is the case with most books that transfer to flashy movies or TV shows, and you have to accept it to a degree, but I do think some shows and films have managed to maintain some of the finer points of their source material.

 

I think a good example would be the Nynaeve sneaking up on Lan scene mentioned earlier in this thread. I really don't mind it because it's a good way to show that she isn't to be trifled with, and show why Lan is attracted to her. However, I will miss the point where Nynaeve is caught out by Moiraine in the books (showing that Nynaeve is flawed too). This particular omission isn't a big deal, but if all of the subtle bits like this are lost, I will lament that greatly. Death by a thousand cuts as it were.

 

What would really become an issue is if after this scene we start repeatedly seeing Nynaeve make a fool of Lan or something like that. That would be the kind of ham-fisted storytelling that could actually ruin the show, and drive people even reasonable people to see this as some kind of woke project. I have yet to see evidence of something like this though, so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Personally, I don't buy into the whole woke/anti-woke dichotomy. The most fervent followers of either side often turn out to be our turning's version of Masema or Jaichim Carridin. I know at some point that the proselytizing, from either side, can become too much for people, and I will admit that the on-the-nose thing can be a bit much even for me. However, as said by many others, it will only ruin the show if it does this at the cost of everything else. Otherwise, it will merely be mildly annoying to me.

 

I hope you all have a very nice day. I just needed to get that out of my system before watching the show. Sorry if I messed up a rule or something since this is my first post. ?