A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

I must regretfully inform you that this is also a kink

I'm not surprised. Rule 34. Maybe don't google it. ?

[Morani]

6 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

I must regretfully inform you that this is also a kink

 I mean, I bet trollocs are someones kink... ? The slope be slippery!

 

But can we all agree that spanking grown women is a very common kink, and one that probably would feel really off to most viewers in tone? I don't want them to tone to black, cause I think the reaction to the punishment is a very big moment for Egwene. How she goes from actually being soft, to becoming really freaking strong. So strong, in fact, that not even torture will crack her. I do not think spanking will convey this. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Morani

[Elder_Haman]

My guess? A little more actual torture and a little less humiliating punishment will be the balance they will strike. Play up the cruelty of the Seanchan and the Forsaken/Black Ajah. Play down the shame as punishment element. I think we will see more hard labor (and meaningless tasks for the Aiel) and far fewer spankings. 

 

They may keep one or two spanking episodes in - both as a nod to the fans and to drive home plot elements. But they will not be as ubiquitous. 

[WalterKohl]

20 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

 

Things that would truly bother me:

• Degendering the One Power (no saidin/saidar).
• Making Min genderfluid or trans.

But I think both of these are highly unlikely. Is there something else that concerns you?

 

 

 

I think the first point has been talked to death here, but I hadn't even thought about the second point...  What would be the problem with Min being genderfluid....  frankly, imo, in the books she bucks both male and female stereotypes pretty consistently and is kicka@@ as the "weakest" member of the inner circle...  at no point would it really matter if she was gender fluid.

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, WalterKohl said:

I think the first point has been talked to death here, but I hadn't even thought about the second point...  What would be the problem with Min being genderfluid....  frankly, imo, in the books she bucks both male and female stereotypes pretty consistently and is kicka@@ as the "weakest" member of the inner circle...  at no point would it really matter if she was gender fluid.

Obviously Rand would have to change too if they end up together. Why change any of the important characters in such a way? It would just feel like shoving some agenda to our throats. I personally never got any sort of genderfluid vibes from her. She's my favorite woman because she is just like she is in the books.

Edited November 2, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[WalterKohl]

1 minute ago, DaddyFinn said:

Obviously Rand would have to change too if they end up together. Why change any of the important characters in such a way? It would just feel like shoving some agenda to our throats. I personally never got any sort of genderfluid vibes from her.

Wouldn't really have to change Rand at all, I don't really remember at any point in the book when he had negative issues with her more masculine attributes, in fact if I remember correctly he kind of liked her in trousers...  Not to mention that you can hardly find a more "traditionally masculine" female than Avendiah (sp is all wrong), frankly only Elaine is particularly fem of the three of his loves.  All  I am saying is that Min being genderfluid (who was born a female) would have petty much no change in the overall story.

[DaddyFinn]

13 minutes ago, WalterKohl said:

Wouldn't really have to change Rand at all, I don't really remember at any point in the book when he had negative issues with her more masculine attributes, in fact if I remember correctly he kind of liked her in trousers...  Not to mention that you can hardly find a more "traditionally masculine" female than Avendiah (sp is all wrong), frankly only Elaine is particularly fem of the three of his loves.  All  I am saying is that Min being genderfluid (who was born a female) would have petty much no change in the overall story.

A female using trousers and/or being trained to fight and behave "like a man" is a lot different than identifying as a male IMO. 

[WalterKohl]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

A female using trousers and/or being trained to fight and behave "like a man" is a lot different than identifying as a male IMO. 

yes and gender fluid is a lot different than identifying as a male as well...  Nothing intrinsic to a persons character/soul is different because one is male/female/trans/or non-binary just different struggles and different experiences that may lead one to having a different world view.    Not wanting to get into a deeper discussion on the difference between gender, sex, and stereotypical displays of each and how they can affect a person or their effect on a story, all I am saying is that Min being gender fluid would be the least impactful change. 

 (Kind of off topic but topic adjacent:   In another thread someone brought up the idea of making Galad gay would make the most sense (I guess if there was a need to make someone different) and that one actually fits in to the story a lot more neatly and cleanly, it explains his weird shift to the Whitecloaks that I never fully bought from someone raised in Morgaine's household...   )

[TheDreadReader]

I wonder if we can read anything into this photo shared by Josha (I think) on twitter today. 

 

 

(Removed the photo because I am not sure that it is actually him that posted it.)

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[WalterKohl]

well if "cannon" then that shuts down this entire discussion!  Dragon tattoos and belt buckle....  

[TheMountain]

16 minutes ago, WalterKohl said:

well if "cannon" then that shuts down this entire discussion!  Dragon tattoos and belt buckle....  

Not really, as nobody seriously thinks Egwene will be the Dragon Reborn. The issue has always been that the characters in-world should never even think for one moment (by Aes Sedai misdirection or whatever) that a female dragon is a possibility due to the major impacts on the lore and worldbuilding. 

[Beidomon]

I get that a lot of people are offended by the spanking and humiliation bits, but it actually kinda fits, doesn’t it? How does an order of the most powerful women in the world, some of whom are hundreds of years old, most effectively punish its members? Punish them as you would a child.

 

While I found the way RJ depicted women to be incredibly annoying at times - and I’m all for cleaning up the sniffing and skirt smoothing and constant bickering and the like - I never had a problem with the spankings. And no, it’s not a “kink.” Dumb. 

[WalterKohl]

5 hours ago, TheMountain said:

Not really, as nobody seriously thinks Egwene will be the Dragon Reborn. The issue has always been that the characters in-world should never even think for one moment (by Aes Sedai misdirection or whatever) that a female dragon is a possibility due to the major impacts on the lore and worldbuilding. 

Certain Characters for sure should never have that idea (unless they completely changed the mechanics of the universe, which we have no proof or indication of), and those would be the AS and their warders foremost.  As for the townsfolk, particularly those towns folk that have been nowhere near a false dragon in the last hundred or so years....  Ehh, they could have many ideas... Heck there was a bunch of people camping out in Dallas last night because they actually thought JFK Jr was coming back from the dead, and if that can actually happen in a sophisticated country in reality, I am fine with some towns folk in a backwater fictional town not being sure if the Dragon could be Male or Female...  

Edited November 2, 2021 by WalterKohl

[TheMountain]

6 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I get that a lot of people are offended by the spanking and humiliation bits, but it actually kinda fits, doesn’t it? How does an order of the most powerful women in the world, some of whom are hundreds of years old, most effectively punish its members? Punish them as you would a child.

 

While I found the way RJ depicted women to be incredibly annoying at times - and I’m all for cleaning up the sniffing and skirt smoothing and constant bickering and the like - I never had a problem with the spankings. And no, it’s not a “kink.” Dumb. 

Agreed. People don't realize that the humiliation and injury to pride part of the punishment is key. Think about what happened to Semirhage. One of the most powerful and feared people in the world, one of the Forsaken... one who undoubtedly endured the painful torment of the Dark One many times... simply turned over Cadsuane's knee and spanked like a child. The indignity of it is what broke her.

[boldnbeautiful]

4 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

I get that a lot of people are offended by the spanking and humiliation bits, but it actually kinda fits, doesn’t it? How does an order of the most powerful women in the world, some of whom are hundreds of years old, most effectively punish its members? Punish them as you would a child.

Well, most people who criticize like spanking are viewing from the narrow modern Western world. That's fine for personal views, but don't expect an author who is basing his fantasy world on medieval to renaissance periods to suddenly have modern "time outs" or "emotional therapy sessions". Who will actually believe this world creation?

 

A novice, Cindy, in the Tower channeled without permissions. Karen Sedai asked Cindy to stay behind so they can discuss this infraction.

 

Karen Sedai asks Cindy "One Power can be dangerous to yourself and others, so if you don't mind, may I ask you to not channel unless there are supervising Aes Sedai?"

 

Cindy replies "you are impinging on my personal liberty."

 

Karen Sedai sighs "would you like to talk to Lilith Sedai, our novice welcoming counselor?"

 

Cindy narrows her eyes "I am reporting you to Amyrlin for violating my safe space."

 

Karen sighs "I am sorry Cindy, I will need to consult with your parents. I will prepare a message to be sent via pigeons. You may want to write your own version. They will be here in about a month since they live about 1000 miles away?"

 

I am not sure how many will believe that this will be a fantasy world of dangers and intrigues...

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, boldnbeautiful said:

Well, most people who criticize like spanking are viewing from the narrow modern Western world. That's fine for personal views, but don't expect an author who is basing his fantasy world on medieval to renaissance periods to suddenly have modern "time outs" or "emotional therapy sessions". Who will actually believe this world creation?

 

A novice, Cindy, in the Tower channeled without permissions. Karen Sedai asked Cindy to stay behind so they can discuss this infraction.

 

Karen Sedai asks Cindy "One Power can be dangerous to yourself and others, so if you don't mind, may I ask you to not channel unless there are supervising Aes Sedai?"

 

Cindy replies "you are impinging on my personal liberty."

 

Karen Sedai sighs "would you like to talk to Lilith Sedai, our novice welcoming counselor?"

 

Cindy narrows her eyes "I am reporting you to Amyrlin for violating my safe space."

 

Karen sighs "I am sorry Cindy, I will need to consult with your parents. I will prepare a message to be sent via pigeons. You may want to write your own version. They will be here in about a month since they live about 1000 miles away?"

 

I am not sure how many will believe that this will be a fantasy world of dangers and intrigues...

Nice straw man you got there.

[SinisterDeath]

25 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

Well, most people who criticize like spanking are viewing from the narrow modern Western world. That's fine for personal views, but don't expect an author who is basing his fantasy world on medieval to renaissance periods to suddenly have modern "time outs" or "emotional therapy sessions". Who will actually believe this world creation?

It's a post-apoc setting, that is similar to the renaissance, not a retelling of western european history.
 

[mogi68]

 

2 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

I wonder if we can read anything into this photo shared by Josha (I think) on twitter today. 

 

 

(Removed the photo because I am not sure that it is actually him that posted it.)

 

 

He hasn't posted since 2019 

 

[boldnbeautiful]

4 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's a post-apoc setting, that is similar to the renaissance, not a retelling of western european history.
 

You think some Middle Eastern, Native Americans, Asians, or any kingdoms in the 12th to 16th century had anything similar to modern "time-outs" or "we treasure your feelings"? I am not quite sure why people expect some ridiculous scenarios from ancient world settings where people used to raid each other for basic necessities. THE WORLD WAS BRUTAL EVERYWHERE before the industrial revolution.

 

Ottoman Empire's Fratricide is the basis for Seanchan royalty killing for the heir position. They were killing their own brothers and sisters... even children in the Ottoman Empire's royalty. Not exactly, your "the communication is the key to harmonious society" way of life.

[SinisterDeath]

18 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

You think some Middle Eastern, Native Americans, Asians, or any kingdoms in the 12th to 16th century had anything similar to modern "time-outs" or "we treasure your feelings"? I am not quite sure why people expect some ridiculous scenarios from ancient world settings where people used to raid each other for basic necessities. THE WORLD WAS BRUTAL EVERYWHERE before the industrial revolution.

 

Ottoman Empire's Fratricide is the basis for Seanchan royalty killing for the heir position. They were killing their own brothers and sisters... even children in the Ottoman Empire's royalty. Not exactly, your "the communication is the key to harmonious society" way of life.

The wheel of time is not set in our reality, and specifically not our past.
You do... understand that right?

 

[WalterKohl]

43 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

You think some Middle Eastern, Native Americans, Asians, or any kingdoms in the 12th to 16th century had anything similar to modern "time-outs" or "we treasure your feelings"? I am not quite sure why people expect some ridiculous scenarios from ancient world settings where people used to raid each other for basic necessities. THE WORLD WAS BRUTAL EVERYWHERE before the industrial revolution.

 

Ottoman Empire's Fratricide is the basis for Seanchan royalty killing for the heir position. They were killing their own brothers and sisters... even children in the Ottoman Empire's royalty. Not exactly, your "the communication is the key to harmonious society" way of life.

Have you read the books?  What makes you say this setting is in some ancient time?   Even if this was purposefully reset into this universe by Rafe (no evidence of that) it would still be set in the LAST age, well after us...  Heck even Lew's Therin would be in our (2021) far future!

[boldnbeautiful]

Just now, WalterKohl said:

Have you read the books?  What makes you say this setting is in some ancient time?   Even if this was purposefully reset into this universe by Rafe (no evidence of that) it would still be set in the LAST age, well after us...  Heck even Lew's Therin would be in our (2021) far future!

DID YOU read the books? RJ even said himself that he created many cultures based on inspirations from the real world before the renaissance period. Seanchan has elements of Roman and Abyssian/Ethiopian Empire. Andor is pretty much the British empire. Cairhien has French, Japanese, and some other flavors. Shara has some Chinese Empire and Mogul/Indian empires.

[WalterKohl]

2 minutes ago, boldnbeautiful said:

DID YOU read the books? RJ even said himself that he created many cultures based on inspirations from the real world before the renaissance period. Seanchan has elements of Roman and Abyssian/Ethiopian Empire. Andor is pretty much the British empire. Cairhien has French, Japanese, and some other flavors. Shara has some Chinese Empire and Mogul/Indian empires.

Yes and what does that have to do with the time he set the story in?  He set the story in another universe than ours, but he also set it at the end of the cycle, not the beginning.  This is set in a post apocalyptic time in it's universe, at the end of the end times by very definition of the main plot....

[boldnbeautiful]

33 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The wheel of time is not set in our reality, and specifically not our past.
You do... understand that right?

 

You know that RJ created his world based on pre-gunpowder real world, right? He borrowed from many different cultures to create his Wheel of Time world. In fact, most fantasy books borrow heavily from ancient worlds to create their own world.

 

I don't understand why people can't understand this aspect of fantasy world. RJ incorporated heavily from the Arthurian Legend... he even said it himself.  He didn't borrow from modern America to create Westland... you know that right?

[Tim]

LOL at the idea that a world in which magic and the DO exists has to be true to any particular moment in our own history or combination thereof. RJ took his ideas all over the place but was hardly faithful to his inspirations - and didn’t need to be.

 

I similarly find it amusing when fans get worked up about ethnicity in the two rivers, as if it’s fine for trollocs to be a thing but it’s a major problem if genetic inheritance doesn’t work exactly the same as in our world in the last few thousand years