A Female Dragon? Examining the Evidence

[Arthellion]

Ugh.

 

This undoes so much vital lore in the series.

 

The wider world (specifically Aes Sedai) know that the Dragon Reborn must be a male and that's why he's so feared because of the taint in Saidin. Very nervous that they're going to just be completely getting rid of the gender essentialism that was such a key theme in the series.

 

 

[Maximillion]

7 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Ugh.

 

This undoes so much vital lore in the series.

 

The wider world (specifically Aes Sedai) know that the Dragon Reborn must be a male and that's why he's so feared because of the taint in Saidin. Very nervous that they're going to just be completely getting rid of the gender essentialism that was such a key theme in the series.

 

 

 

^this.

 

I am already getting the 'Jon Snow is a useless bumbling idiot that has to rely on Arya to save the day' vibe

 

A week ago there was 'no way' the Dragon could be a woman and it was just Morraine's trickery at play.

Now that's in the dustbin, now it's 'The DR is 100% Rand'.  That is not 100% at this stage. I have no doubts that if they are willing to change the entire lore, they've done it for a reason - not just for new viewer engagement.  We have to consider the real possibility now that Egwene is the DR in the TV series.

 

 

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

^this.

 

I am already getting the 'Jon Snow is a useless bumbling idiot that has to rely on Arya to save the day' vibe

 

A week ago there was 'no way' the Dragon could be a woman and it was just Morraine's trickery at play.

Now that's in the dustbin, now it's 'The DR is 100% Rand'.  That is not 100% at this stage. I have no doubts that if they are willing to change the entire lore, they've done it for a reason - not just for new viewer engagement.  We have to consider the real possibility now that Egwene is the DR in the TV series.

 

 

 

Last week it was "No way that they will make the Dragon Reborn Egwene" and that is still true this week.  Them adding the possibly DOES NOT CHANGE THE STORY.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 We have to consider the real possibility now that Egwene is the DR in the TV series.

We don't have to consider that at all.

 

We know the Dragon is of the Aiel, and he's going to be a ginger.

They cast a ginger to play Rand.

We got a scene on the slopes of dragonmount.

 

But yes, let "One of Four" must mean Egwene is the dragon to serve the elite wokeness.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

Last week it was "No way that they will make the Dragon Reborn Egwene" and that is still true this week.  Them adding the possibly DOES NOT CHANGE THE STORY.

 

 

 

Is it?

I think all bets are off now - high potential for this to be an expensive exercise in virtue signalling.

 

'we don't know if he is a boy or a girl' 

Great.  Maybe they can cut a scene of Morraine be lectured on using the correct pronouns.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Maximillion

[Arthellion]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

 

Last week it was "No way that they will make the Dragon Reborn Egwene" and that is still true this week.  Them adding the possibly DOES NOT CHANGE THE STORY.

 

 

 

It kinda does though? If a female can be the DR, then there is so much lore that is lost in the series that add weight to the story moments. 

 

The heart of Wheel of Time was it's lore in the background that gave weight to the epic moments the characters experienced. 

 

It's entirely possible the series will execute this well and I hope it does...I'm just scared at the moment. Everything I'm seeing about the shows seems to indicate that they are removing core features of the story for a TV Adaptation to work. 

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

 

Last week it was "No way that they will make the Dragon Reborn Egwene" and that is still true this week.  Them adding the possibly DOES NOT CHANGE THE STORY.

 

 

^this.

 

Also, where (from the previews) have you actually gotten a Jon Snow is a bumbling idiot vibe (in reference to Rand)? I'm curious, earnestly. Maybe I've missed some of the marketing. 

 

To be fair, Rand is kind of a bumbling idiot. Instead of Aria saving him it's Far Dareis Mai.

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

We don't have to consider that at all.

 

We know the Dragon is of the Aiel, and he's going to be a ginger.

They cast a ginger to play Rand.

We got a scene on the slopes of dragonmount.

 

But yes, let "One of Four" must mean Egwene is the dragon to serve the elite wokeness.

 

It's 'one of five' now.. and the Dragon can be a 'boy or a girl'.

 

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

Is it?

I think all bets are off now - high potential for this to be an expensive exercise in virtue signalling.

I suppose nothing is ever absolute, so yes in some wild universe they make Egwene the DR and write Rand out of the books.  We won't know until the show releases.

 

But I personally won't let wildly negative speculation ruin a show that hasn't Aired yet.

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

It's 'one of five' now.. and the Dragon can be a 'boy or a girl'.

 

The "One of Five" is cleary a dub,

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Maximillion said:

 

It's 'one of five' now.. and the Dragon can be a 'boy or a girl'.

 

One of Five in the trailer, One of Four in the episode the aired in the UK.

That literally doesn't confirm "Egg = DR". 

That's pure unadulterated speculation.

[MasterAblar]

This kinda changes the lore and the prophecies a fair bit but there's nothing to suggest they'd change who the DR is. That would be like saying ye Frodo doesn't take the ring into mordor, Aragorn does or some similar crap. 

 

On the other hand they have to do some serious messing around to make it work that LTT could be reborn as a woman. Are saidin and saidar still tied to souls? If so where are all to women who can channel saidin and men who can channel saidar? Wouldn't Seanchan be aware of this due to the adam? 

 

Are the Aes Sedai and just about everyone completely unaware that souls are either male or female and thats why they don't know the DR would be a man? You'd have to change all the prophecies to do that but sure.

 

The change wouldn't even necessarily affect the story much but do I have to kinda wonder why bother with it. Whats the point?

[Arthellion]

2 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

This kinda changes the lore and the prophecies a fair bit but there's nothing to suggest they'd change who the DR is. That would be like saying ye Frodo doesn't take the ring into mordor, Aragorn does or some similar crap. 

 

On the other hand they have to do some serious messing around to make it work that LTT could be reborn as a woman. Are saidin and saidar still tied to souls? If so where are all to women who can channel saidin and men who can channel saidar? Wouldn't Seanchan be aware of this due to the adam? 

 

Are the Aes Sedai and just about everyone completely unaware that souls are either male or female and thats why they don't know the DR would be a man? You'd have to change all the prophecies to do that but sure.

 

The change wouldn't even necessarily affect the story much but do I have to kinda wonder why bother with it. Whats the point?

 

Edit: Nevermind. Forgot some other important parts in this response. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Arthellion

[Skipp]

2 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

 

It kinda does though? If a female can be the DR, then there is so much lore that is lost in the series that add weight to the story moments. 

 

The heart of Wheel of Time was it's lore in the background that gave weight to the epic moments the characters experienced. 

 

It's entirely possible the series will execute this well and I hope it does...I'm just scared at the moment. Everything I'm seeing about the shows seems to indicate that they are removing core features of the story for a TV Adaptation to work. 

If the DR soul was placed in a female body but still channeled Saidin would that change anything lore wise?  It would ruin the Balthy's resurrection surprise but not much else.  But I still doubt they are even considering this.

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, Skipp said:

If the DR soul was placed in a female body but still channeled Saidin would that change anything lore wise?  It would ruin the Balthy's resurrection surprise but not much else.  But I still doubt they are even considering this.

 

Are you saying that would be unique to the DR soul or that it could happen to anyone? Cause if it could happen to anyone I'd kindly like to know where all the men channelling saidar are, not to mention all the women going insane. Kind of a massive change to the story or a massive plot whole.

[Arthellion]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

If the DR soul was placed in a female body but still channeled Saidin would that change anything lore wise?  It would ruin the Balthy's resurrection surprise but not much else.  But I still doubt they are even considering this.

 

I mean it changes the rules. The rules that only men channel Saidin. If a woman can channel Saidin, then it breaks pretty much one of the core features and themes of the books. 

 

It basically destroys the gender essentialism that is integral to RJ's world. 

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

This kinda changes the lore and the prophecies a fair bit but there's nothing to suggest they'd change who the DR is. That would be like saying ye Frodo doesn't take the ring into mordor, Aragorn does or some similar crap. 

 

On the other hand they have to do some serious messing around to make it work that LTT could be reborn as a woman. Are saidin and saidar still tied to souls? If so where are all to women who can channel saidin and men who can channel saidar? Wouldn't Seanchan be aware of this due to the adam? 

 

Are the Aes Sedai and just about everyone completely unaware that souls are either male or female and thats why they don't know the DR would be a man? You'd have to change all the prophecies to do that but sure.

 

The change wouldn't even necessarily affect the story much but do I have to kinda wonder why bother with it. Whats the point?

The point is purely Marketing.  You need something to hook your audience.  The nonbook-reading audience will get to speculate who among the EF5 is the DR or if even one of them is.

 

Adding Egwene to the mix allows them to include the female demographic without changing anything.

 

I believe it is as simple as that.  I could be wildly wrong and they might rewrite the entire series.  But from what I have seen of released material I don't believe they would head that way.

[Arthellion]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The point is purely Marketing.  You need something to hook your audience.  The nonbook-reading audience will get to speculate who among the EF5 is the DR or if even one of them is.

 

Adding Egwene to the mix allows them to include the female demographic without changing anything.

 

I believe it is as simple as that.  I could be wildly wrong and they might rewrite the entire series.  But from what I have seen of released material I don't believe they would head that way.

 

I agree the motivation is marketing and trying to draw in non -book readers.

 

But as a result, you're either A. Going to have to make major changes to the lore. Or B. Ignore the Lore itself. Or C. Aes Sedai are completely ignorant of how Saidin/Saidar work. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Arthellion

[Skipp]

Just now, MasterAblar said:

 

Are you saying that would be unique to the DR soul or that it could happen to anyone? Cause if it could happen to anyone I'd kindly like to know where all the men channelling saidar are, not to mention all the women going insane. Kind of a massive change to the story or a massive plot whole.

 

As I said in an earlier post, everything is impossible in the world of The wheel of Time until it happens once.

Stilling/gentling was impossible to heal

The Forsaken said it was impossible to unweave a weave. They are also baffled by the idea of the Warder Bond.

The Aes Sedai were super confused by a female channeling Saidin in their mix.  So cleary it can happen.

 

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

The point is purely Marketing.  You need something to hook your audience.  The nonbook-reading audience will get to speculate who among the EF5 is the DR or if even one of them is.

 

Adding Egwene to the mix allows them to include the female demographic without changing anything.

 

I believe it is as simple as that.  I could be wildly wrong and they might rewrite the entire series.  But from what I have seen of released material I don't believe they would head that way.

 

We have a male soul in a womens body channeling Saidin in the book series already.  Who is to say it is impossible for the Dragon's soul to be placed in a Womens body just because it hasn't happened before.

 

Once again I don't think they will do this but I don't see how that breaks the worlds lore at all.

[Skipp]

Just now, Arthellion said:

 

I agree the motivation is marketing and trying to draw in non -book readers.

 

But as a result, you're either A. Going to have to make major changes to the lore. Or B. Ignore the Lore itself. Or C. Aes Sedai are completely ignorant of how Saidin/Saidar work. 

Aes Sedai knowledge is not perfect.  If the foretelling Moiraine heard was not as specific as it was in the books then she wouldn't know to search for only a boy.  Characters in fiction not having all the information we as readers have is not a plot hole.

[Arthellion]

Just now, Skipp said:

Aes Sedai knowledge is not perfect.  If the foretelling Moiraine heard was not as specific as it was in the books then she wouldn't know to search for only a boy.  Characters in fiction not having all the information we as readers have is not a plot hole.

 

There's a difference between lack of knowledge and a user of the One Power like Moraine somehow not knowing the difference between Saidin/Saidar.

 

Which once again.

 

Either A. Moraine is ignorant of basic facts. Bad take. B. Lore is being changed and rejecting gender essentialism. Bad take. C. We're going to ignore this even exists at all. Same result as B. 

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

But as a result, you're either A. Going to have to make major changes to the lore. Or B. Ignore the Lore itself. Or C. Aes Sedai are completely ignorant of how Saidin/Saidar work. 

It doesn't change the lore, because Rand is still the dragon.

 

We don't know how Moiraine came to the conclusion that a woman could be the Dragon, but you'll notice not a single prophecy mentions Saidin, Saidar, or the One Power.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Karaethon_Cycle

You'll also notice not every prophecy uses a pronoun.... and not every prophecy is about the Dragon.

This is Mat.

Quote

Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky

This is Mat & Perrin

Quote

When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known.
When the Fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown

 
This about Bubbles of Evil/Foreshadows Shaidar Haran, Rand, Asmodean.

Quote

Power of the Shadow made human flesh
wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream

Elaida/Egwene/Dumai's Wells and Rand.

Quote

The unstained tower, broken, bends knee to the forgotten sign.The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen.
Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.
What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up.
Order burns to clear his path.

 

[Arthellion]

Sure. 

We can get into the prophesies all we want, but I'm not concerned about wording or the like. I'm concerned about how the world and how it's people react. What is the knowledge of the world around the two rivers.

 

If people think that a female can be the dragon, it drastically changes the lore. It cuts down the divide that exist between men and women in Wheel of Time and destroys one of the key themes/tensions in the books. It robs Rand and other protagonists of different victories and characters moments. 

 

Once again, I'll preface this by saying I hope they execute this well and I could fully be wrong. I want this show to do well and I'm by no means aligning myself with the "The show is trying to be woke so it's bad" camp. 

 

I'm just very nervous. I want to see the moments of Rand turning things on it's head. The terror that is the Asha'man wielding the one power but in defiance of the coming madness.

 

I want to enjoy this show. I just worry that without some of the key lore elements, it's going to fall flat. 

 

 

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

40 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

'we don't know if he is a boy or a girl' 

Great.  Maybe they can cut a scene of Morraine be lectured on using the correct pronouns.

Or maybe Moiraine is referring to LTT's soul with the "he". LTT was male after all.

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Sure. 

We can get into the prophesies all we want, but I'm not concerned about wording or the like

28 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

A. Going to have to make major changes to the lore

Changing the wording of the lore constitutes changing the lore, does it not?

 

5 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

If people think that a female can be the dragon, it drastically changes the lore. It cuts down the divide that exist between men and women in Wheel of Time and destroys one of the key themes/tensions in the books. It robs Rand and other protagonists of different victories and characters moments. 

 

The lore always stated 

Quote

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow,
born once more as he was born before,
and shall be born again, time without end.
The Dragon shall be Reborn,
and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth.
In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people,
and he shall break the world again by his coming,
tearing apart all ties that bind.
Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us,
yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,
and his blood shall give us the Light.
Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.
Weep for your salvation.

Everyone feared the Dragon's rebirth because they feared the Dragon would break the world again.

 

Not One prophecy Mentions of Saidin/Saidar, or the ability to channel the one power.

As far as we know, "randland" doesn't have an organized religion concerning the metaphysics of the universe.

The people may honestly not know that in RJ's world souls are tied to gender. They may have a hunch, or a good suspicion, but the Creator doesn't exactly talk to people and tell them the rules. Ya know?

So, what does the "idea" of a possible female dragon being reborn mean to the story?
 

It means, that people are holding onto a shred of hope, that if a Female Dragon were to be born, she wouldn't go mad and destroy the world.

That's the extent that change brings.

It creates a false set of hope in the westland population that there exists a 50% chance that the Dragon's coming doesn't mean the end days. Which just makes their gnashing of teeth reach a crescendo when they find out he is born male.

Unreliable narrators, make for good drama.