The One Power & Arrow Scene

[Beidomon]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Exactly. No one can define what they mean by YA other than to say the shots look "posed". But the shots also lack context to tell exactly how "posed" they are.

 

At least with proof that we're getting decaptitations, we can put the "YA means it won't be bloody enough" concerns to bed.

It’s just the look. Has nothing to do with sex or blood or violence. I know it when I see it. So there’s really no point in debating what is, or isn’t, YA. Maybe I’ll start describing it as CW. As in the cheaply produced teen angst dreck on the CW network. Too clean, too posed, and no amount of “context” is likely to justify that scene. But hey, we’ll see. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Beidomon

[Skipp]

What I see with this picture is a group of Aes Sedai and their Warders preparing for an attack.  Now due to the fact that the horses are hobbled This group knew this attack was coming and prepared their spot or they were ambushed while camped. 

 

Of all the Warders present it seems only Lan and Steppin are watching the incoming arrows, this makes sense as their Aes Sedai are not present.  All other Warders feel their Aes Sedai's confidence with the situation so their eyes are focused on the incoming enemies.

 

The Aes Sedai are focused on the arrows as it seems Alanna has linked with at least 2 of the sisters(my presumption from the way the weave splits in front of her).  As they know what they can and can't do(there should be a joke in that) they have everyone close together to ensure the arrows come in a grouping making it easier to ensure they are able to snatch them all.

 

And while the arrows are grouped together you can tell some are ahead of the others so they have been fired at different times/distances.

 

To me, I don't understand while this looks "YA" or "CW" but as this thread shows we all have wildly different interpretations of certain scenes.

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, Skipp said:

What I see with this picture is a group of Aes Sedai and their Warders preparing for an attack.  Now due to the fact that the horses are hobbled This group knew this attack was coming and prepared their spot or they were ambushed while camped. 

 

Of all the Warders present it seems only Lan and Steppin are watching the incoming arrows, this makes sense as their Aes Sedai are not present.  All other Warders feel their Aes Sedai's confidence with the situation so their eyes are focused on the incoming enemies.

 

The Aes Sedai are focused on the arrows as it seems Alanna has linked with at least 2 of the sisters(my presumption from the way the weave splits in front of her).  As they know what they can and can't do(there should be a joke in that) they have everyone close together to ensure the arrows come in a grouping making it easier to ensure they are able to snatch them all.

 

And while the arrows are grouped together you can tell some are ahead of the others so they have been fired at different times/distances.

 

To me, I don't understand while this looks "YA" or "CW" but as this thread shows we all have wildly different interpretations of certain scenes.

Great screenshot of exactly what I’m talking about. Look, if you can’t see it, that’s ok. It won’t bother you. Good for you. But it looks fake as hell. 

[Elder_Haman]

9 hours ago, Beidomon said:

it looks fake as hell.

I mean, it is a show about magic. There are limits to how "real" it can look. 

 

11 hours ago, Beidomon said:

Maybe I’ll start describing it as CW. As in the cheaply produced teen angst dreck on the CW network.

My kids are into "Arrow" and "Flash" and "the 100" - I know that CW shows look like. I don't see it here. But okay.

[Borderlander]

11 hours ago, Skipp said:

And while the arrows are grouped together you can tell some are ahead of the others so they have been fired at different times/distances.

 

I appreciate you posting this picture—and you're right, the arrows are not all 'neck-and-neck' like I described them.......... but they're pretty darn close. Within 12-18 inches of one another, at least, which means they were either fired within a nanosecond of one another; I do wonder what the odds are of six (or more) well-trained archers *trying* to fire at the same time at the same target (and not a bull's eye target 20 paces away over a level field away like in Robin Hood, but like a Ramsay Bolton shooting high and away into the sky, and wait for it, wait for it, wait for it.... direct hit! kind of shot) and still have all 6 arrows that tightly clustered. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe it's more likely than I'm assuming. But instinctually, I think not.

 

Still, will have to wait and see how it all works together in context.

[TheDreadReader]

On 10/13/2021 at 3:28 PM, Borderlander said:

 

2) The fact that all the arrows are clustered so tightly together is... maybe not impossible, but kind of implausible. Half a dozen arrows, fired from a distance by half-a-dozen archers, arcing up high, and they all are more or less parallel with one another AND basically equidistant from their target (meaning the arrowheads are all lined up?) Like, not even one arrow is a foot or two behind the pack? Not even one had a slightly different trajectory? And all the arrows look to be converging on a single target, since they are all within a few feet of one another? Which means, what? All the archers were shooting at a single Aes Sedai? When there are multiple Aes Sedai and warders all clustered together? Again, it's possible, I suppose... I get that these are all experienced warriors, and lifelong archers perhaps, but that uniformity strikes my eye as bordering on the unbelievable. 

 

 

I dare say that a decent grouping of arrows is perhaps more plausible (and realistic) in a real world sense than not if you look at it from a military perspective.  Groupings like that are not that difficult to a achieve with a little training, formations, drilled movements, a good cadences, etc.  The key would be spatial arrangement, archers drawing and releasing at the same time, and the archers all using the same motions while using similar equipment. Geometry and physics will do the rest.  Variations of individual arrows can still occur but the point of massed fire is to maximize the amount of projectiles in a focused area.

 

Where they might technically screw it up is if they show the archers scattered about the place with all the arrows still achieving a pretty tight massing.  

 

My time in the Marines may have influenced my perspective since we tend to spend an inordinate amount of time on the parade ground doing old school drill compared to other modern forces.   

 

[TheDreadReader]

13 hours ago, Skipp said:

And while the arrows are grouped together you can tell some are ahead of the others so they have been fired at different times/distances.

 

 

In another response, I made a point about massed firing.  If they are not fired en mass the arrows would converge naturally since the target area is a fairly narrow area assuming that they were shot within fairly narrow time windows and launch points.

 

Tactically, whoever fired the arrows is merely trying to create friction to prevent movement while retaining their freedom of movement.  The human eye is naturally drawn to movement and we are all prone to trying to process the threat we know from our sight before other actions.  (This is what all the screaming in a recruits ear is about at military boot camp videos/movies while the recruit stares straight ahead.  They're training you to handle the fight or flight reflex by not responding to sensory input.) 

 

In this case, given the number of arrows shot it would actually be fairly easy for trained warders to just step out of the way.   Big flights of arrows cost more money so TV shows will sometimes just create the impression of big flights without really messing around with the details.

 

 

Alanna's options in response are obviously constrained since she has to perceive a threat before responding with her ranged combat options.  Consider how the scene might play out if the arrows were fired at Seanchan forces.  I dare say the later would not end well for the archers.  

 

 

[TheMountain]

Looking at the angular orientation of the arrows to each other, even if they were aiming for the same target, the archers themselves would need to be massed together. Probably shoulder to shoulder. I might do the geometry later to confirm, but I think you'll find that it would be way way in excess of 35 yards, which google says is the maximum effective range of most advanced archers.

 

In all likelihood, the CGI team probably wasn't too concerned with realism, and to be fair, most of the film industry isn't either.

 

The budget issue is also a good point. Note that this is a very tight shot. The tighter the shot, the less they have to prepare and portray on screen. The arrows clustered together with a tight shot allows them to portray a large flight of arrows without spending too much money.

Edited October 15, 2021 by TheMountain

[TheDreadReader]

42 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Looking at the angular orientation of the arrows to each other, even if they were aiming for the same target, the archers themselves would need to be massed together. Probably shoulder to shoulder. I might do the geometry later to confirm, but I think you'll find that it would be way way in excess of 35 yards, which google says is the maximum effective range of most advanced archers.

 

In all likelihood, the CGI team probably wasn't too concerned with realism, and to be fair, most of the film industry isn't either.

 

The budget issue is also a good point. Note that this is a very tight shot. The tighter the shot, the less they have to prepare and portray on screen. The arrows clustered together with a tight shot allows them to portray a large flight of arrows without spending too much money.

 

I just did a rough sketch while I was thinking about it.   I assumed a rough circle about 20 ft in diameter and and archers standing in a rough line between 20 to 40 ft in total length.   Mostly just to get a general picture of what it looked like spatial.  In a situation like that you don't even really have to aim all that carefully because there is the suppression effect that I mentioned before. 

 

I too doubt they thought about it in that much but that really depends on who was doing the directing for those shots.

 

 

 

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

The Logain clip released today has what looks like a hard shield blocking projectiles in it for those who were talking about the arrow scene in those terms. 

 

 

 

[Borderlander]

And he channels without using his hands. In the cage, too, he appears to bust out using just his mind. Good subtle way to show viewers how powerful he is compared to your average Aes Sedai.

[SinisterDeath]

4 hours ago, Borderlander said:

And he channels without using his hands. In the cage, too, he appears to bust out using just his mind. Good subtle way to show viewers how powerful he is compared to your average Aes Sedai.

Or as we learn later in the series, hand waving and finger wiggling is unnecessary when channeling, and Strength has nothing to do with it. *Thought* is all they need.

 

How a channeler wiggles their fingers, waves their hands is a telltale signs of who taught them. 

It's kind of like how Nynaeve applies basic first aid principles when healing. She doesn't need to do those actions to heal, but it's part of the routine. 
 

[Skipp]

35 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Or as we learn later in the series, hand waving and finger wiggling is unnecessary when channeling, and Strength has nothing to do with it. *Thought* is all they need.

 

How a channeler wiggles their fingers, waves their hands is a telltale signs of who taught them. 

It's kind of like how Nynaeve applies basic first aid principles when healing. She doesn't need to do those actions to heal, but it's part of the routine. 
 

 

Still a useful way to show he learned a different way of channeling compared to the Aes Sedai.  At least I hope the note the difference and it isn't left to the audience to assume this is how men channel compared to women.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Skipp

[Guest redgiant]

19 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I mean, it is a show about magic. There are limits to how "real" it can look.

Really? GoT had actual dragons that looked like they are completely real and in-scene. Undead in various stages of decomp that looked real.

 

For any show these days with a decent budget (which WoT has waaaay more than decent), its just the vision of the director: are they going for realism or not. There is literally nothing that cannot be put on film as realistic if that is the goal.

 

And that is where I squarely lay the blame for scenes like the arrows. Someone had to script it, storyboard it, direct it, film it, view dailies of it, CGI it, composite it, color grade it, edit it, score it ... and at NONE of those stages did anyone say "hey, this looks fake as hell, we can do better".

 

Same with the Lan posing entrance. Anyone I would call a critical thinker would immediately notice how cheesy and cliche it looks to do that.

 

That is what worries me when I see stuff like this make it into anything, be it a trailer or the show itself. Its not just the finished product we see, its the myriad of crew and processes this had to go though to make it to us, and no one stopped it.

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, redgiant said:

Really? GoT had actual dragons that looked like they are completely real and in-scene. Undead in various stages of decomp that looked real.

 

For any show these days with a decent budget (which WoT has waaaay more than decent), its just the vision of the director: are they going for realism or not. There is literally nothing that cannot be put on film as realistic if that is the goal.

 

And that is where I squarely lay the blame for scenes like the arrows. Someone had to script it, storyboard it, direct it, film it, view dailies of it, CGI it, composite it, color grade it, edit it, score it ... and at NONE of those stages did anyone say "hey, this looks fake as hell, we can do better".

 

Same with the Lan posing entrance. Anyone I would call a critical thinker would immediately notice how cheesy and cliche it looks to do that.

 

That is what worries me when I see stuff like this make it into anything, be it a trailer or the show itself. Its not just the finished product we see, its the myriad of crew and processes this had to go though to make it to us, and no one stopped it.

 

I mean, cause neither of those scenes look as bad as you make them out to be? 
 

There’s also a huge difference between creating creatures like dragons and zombies (the Trollocs look fantastic) and showing the use of magic. One is a thing, the other a concept. 
 

At the end of the day, you’ve decided that you just don’t like the show and it’s all confirmation bias at this point. 

[Borderlander]

6 hours ago, redgiant said:

That is what worries me when I see stuff like this make it into anything, be it a trailer or the show itself. Its not just the finished product we see, its the myriad of crew and processes this had to go though to make it to us, and no one stopped it.

 

100% with you on that one. Like you say, the storyboarding (a lot of which is done digitally now with moving, animated frames like a living comic book) and scripting and behind-the-scenes work that goes into every single shot makes you wonder how a single bad shot ever ends up in any show. But maybe that's exactly the problem--who is going to stand up and say, Wait a minute, cut the cameras, are we sure this actually looks good? Maybe we should send the crew home for a few weeks and send this one back to the drawing board.

 

Rafe seems like a very cool, very easygoing, friendly guy, but I wonder sometimes (perhaps unfairly) if that demeanor leads to more sub-par ideas being given the go-ahead. Not saying you want some iron-fisted tyrant running the show, but there has to be a middle-ground where the boss is willing to say No, that Artistic Idea is not good. Go back and do it over. And maybe Rafe does, but some of these scenes that are drawing heavy criticism (the words CW and cheesy are showing up a lot) make you wonder. This is his first time running a show, after all. There's no guarantee he's the best person for the job.

 

On the counterpoint, even with a 10$ million/episode budget, sometimes you realize you shot a scene and it doesn't look quite right later on in the editing bay, but you can't go back and reshoot the whole thing for a variety of reasons, and you just have to work with what you've got. That's life. Somebody (I forget who) made a great point about the Innkeeper at the Prancing Pony in LOTR pointing to Strider, and how hokey it *could* be viewed as... and I look back on every frame of that scene fondly and think it's a masterpiece! Go figure! But that's why I am a little more forgiving about silly-looking shots or maybe a line of dialogue delivered with a weird cadence... I can give the benefit of the doubt with that stuff. It will be the broader, sweeping changes (whatever they end up being) which the writers, costume designers, and prop designers had months, if not years, to meticulously plan out that will be tougher to swallow if they turn out poorly.

[DaddyFinn]

In the end, it's the version of Rafe and the writers and the rest of the crew. It's easy for us to nitpick every single frame and say how we would have it if we called the shots. I haven't seen anything yet that I want removed from the show. Sure, there are a few things I don't agree 100% on but that's life. The newest clips have only made me feel more confident that the show is in good hands.

[CaddySedai]

Again, it is unfair to compare low fantasy GoT to a mid to sub-high fantasy series. 

 

GoT compares more favorably to any medieval series mixed in with zombies and a few dragons. 

 

They didn't have to ever figure what magic LOOKS like. Even high fantasy LotR did not really have to step into the visuals of magic. Everything was unseen and only the effect of magic was seen. 

 

It wasn’t until the Hobbit where magic sort of got a view (against the wraiths and the necromancer avatar) and I honestly thought that was the weakest point of the movies. Corny, overblown, over-reliance on a visual filter)

Edited October 16, 2021 by CaddySedai

[JaimAybara]

6 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Again, it is unfair to compare low fantasy GoT to a mid to sub-high fantasy series. 

 

GoT compares more favorably to any medieval series mixed in with zombies and a few dragons. 

 

They didn't have to ever figure what magic LOOKS like. Even high fantasy LotR did not really have to step into the visuals of magic. Everything was unseen and only the effect of magic was seen. 

 

It wasn’t until the Hobbit where magic sort of got a view (against the wraiths and the necromancer avatar) and I honestly thought that was the weakest point of the movies. Corny, overblown, over-reliance on a visual filter)

What? The magic flashlight didn’t do it for you?

[CaddySedai]

7 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

What? The magic flashlight didn’t do it for you?

 

Ugh. lol

[CaddySedai]

I know that magic slowly creeps back in latter books/seasons but still its all very standard fantasy faire. 

 

I can enter teh andimal mindz. 

 

Oh look mah sword ish on fiah. 

 

Youz is bak from teh ded. 

 

Nothing as deep and essentially wide ranging as what the OP can do. 

 

[DaddyFinn]

35 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

what the OP can do. 

Yeah, it's easier to list what the OP can't do

[CaddySedai]

Not only that but the way magic is treated is kind of offensive. As a magic lover that is lol. 

 

Example:

 

LotR: Magic is dying out as the age of elves is ending. You really only see magic from the wizards, Sauron, and the elves that still wield rings of power (Elrond, Galadriel). And in the books further seen thru “spirits” like barrow-wights etc. 

 

WoT: The One Power is pervasive, not everyone can wield it but its not like only five people worldwide can touch it lol. Training of some kind is usually needed to even survive touching said power. Due to the breaking many times as many weaves or “spells” are lost than are still known and they are being slowly rediscovered. 

 

GoT: Magic was basically gone. Then Daeny’s dragons woke up and poof. Hey magic is back. Formal training? Nah my dude don’t even worry about it. You’ll just be able to do it. Hey were you a charlatan before, pretending to be able to do spells? Well now you can! hooray. Harry, yer a wizard. 

 

 

[JaimAybara]

Things that will either be visual spectacle feats or oof moments:

 

- Balefire

- Deathgates 

- Mirror of Mists 

- Fireball Explosions

- Riven Earth 

- Skimming

- Compulsion 

[JaimAybara]

Compulsion technically may not require as much CGI to show magic wise, but it will be hard to put to screen with non-book readers to get it without heavy handed, “time for your compulsion…” + weird exposition. I just remember that scene with Lan, and how  he was shocked at first and then horrified.

 

*I think it was Lan I’m thinking of, please correct me if I’m mistaken…I thought he was briefly captured and tortured through compulsion. But perhaps I’m getting either the forsaken or the victim confused.

Edited October 16, 2021 by JaimAybara