full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Akragard said:

What's the source?  As just stated by Starganderfish, RJ himself said the male soul is reborn to a male body.

The source of what? I am just stating facts about the series and the implication of these facts.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Starganderfish said:

Dragon can never be a female because he's always been a male, because thats what his soul is. Wheel of time turns, ages come and go etc etc. 

A statement that is true in the book and false in the series 

[Akragard]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

The source of what? I am just stating facts about the series and the implication of these facts.

I misunderstood when you said series.  I thought you were saying it was fact of the Wheel of Time books that it could be a woman.  I realize now you are only saying the show has made it clear that it could be a woman.  And yes, that is true.  They definitely said that despite it making no narrative sense.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Starganderfish said:

There are no "Dragon powers", not till way late in the book when Sanderson starts playing around with Rand and LTT"s merged souls. The Dragon is a male channeller, Ta'verren and most pwerful Channeller in history.  He is also teh same sould, reincarnated over and over again, Not a new sould, not "oh this turnig of the wheel it was a woman". He and Ishy have been fighting the same battle for eternity, through multiple turnings o fthe wheel.
He failed at the bore and the clap-back tainted Sai'din. If the Dragon had been a woman, she would have failed at the bore and Saidar would be tainted. Bt ushe would have always been a woman, in every turning of the wheel.

The Draogn is inherently a man because souls can't gender swap (short of Dark One intervening) and even if the Dark One does, their OP alignment doesn;t channge. The Dragon can never be a female because he's always been a male, because thats what his soul is. Wheel of time turns, ages come and go etc etc. 

I think it should be noted that the Dark Lord can't create. He can only pervert what the creator has already made. Trollocs, fades ("neverborn"), and Balthamel are examples.

[Agitel]

Ishy was convinced they were locked in a repeating battle. Certainly LTT was, but I'm not sure Ishy was right that Ishy was always the nemesis. I think he confused himself with the DO.

 

Also, we don't know if LTT was ta'veren in the AOL. Maybe he was, but the phenomenon of ta'veren was unknown in the AOL.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[Beidomon]

The narration was dumb, period. Show don’t tell. It really wasn’t necessary. Give the audience a few episodes to put a few pieces together. But if you’re gonna start with a narration, it should have been better than this. It does feel like something an executive demanded that they slap onto the beginning after seeing the rough cut. 

[Starganderfish]

4 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

The source of what? I am just stating facts about the series and the implication of these facts.

Sorry, may have misunderstood - when you say series - you mean book or show? Cause in the books it's impossible for the Dragon to be a woman. In the show it can be either, but then the whole Aran'gar stryline is pointless, and the fear of the Dragon is also kind of illogical.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Starganderfish

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Akragard said:

And yes, that is true.  They definitely said that despite it making no narrative sense.

It makes sense in the series, if and only if gender-changing can occur in reborning. I'd be happy for someone to tell me different. 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

It makes sense in the series, if and only if gender-changing can occur in reborning. I'd be happy for someone to tell me different. 

It only happens when the dark lord does it. 

[Akragard]

15 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

It makes sense in the series, if and only if gender-changing can occur in reborning. I'd be happy for someone to tell me different. 

When I say it makes no narrative sense, I mean that the fear of the Dragon would be completely misplaced.   The fear of the Dragon is Lews Therin broke the world.  Saidin is tainted.  Men go mad. 

 

If the DR comes back as a woman, there would be no need to fear the DR going mad and breaking the world again.  She could hang out in the tower, learning all the ways to use the One Power.  The Red Ajah could hunt the men into extinction.  There is no need to cleanse Saidin because the DR uses Saidar now.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Akragard

[Starganderfish]

Just now, Harad the White said:

It makes sense in the series, if and only if gender-changing can occur in reborning. I'd be happy for someone to tell me different. 

I think the reason why everyone thinks it makes no sense is that fear of the Dragon cones from him wielding tainted Saidin. He's going to save the world but doing so will drive him mad and the porphecies talk about him Breaking the world again. If the Dragons a girl, she;s not affected by the tant, she's not going to go mad, and it makes no sense for everyone to fear her coming. She would be praised as a hero to save the world, not one to Break it in the process.
And they did all that, just so they could try and keep Rand's identitty secret for a few episodes. 

[Agitel]

On an unrelated note, I don't understand how reviewers watched six episodes and don't find any of the EF5 characters distinctive. Even on episode three they all have their unique personalities.

 

Maybe they just didn't feel invested, sure. But there is certainly enough there for them to be distinctive characters.

[Joe B]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I understood it to mean they didn’t know where the DR was currently. I’ll be shocked if he wasn’t born on Dragonmount. 

"And him they named Dragon. Now, this man has been born again. We don't know where or to whom. If he was reborn as a girl or a boy. The only thing we know for certain is that this child is coming of age now, and we must find them... before the Dark does."

 

[Harad the White]

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

It only happens when the dark lord does it

No. The Amazon series allows gender-changing in reborning, independently of the dark lord.

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

It does feel like something an executive demanded that they slap onto the beginning after seeing the rough cut. 

 

I agree with that impression.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, Starganderfish said:

think the reason why everyone thinks it makes no sense is that fear of the Dragon cones from him wielding tainted Saidin.

I am not privy to where Amazon is going. But, these details about Saidin seem irrelevant if the DR can be a woman.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

No. The Amazon series allows gender-changing in reborning, independently of the dark lord.

And I'm sure the writers had that make coherent sense...somehow.

[flinn]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

No. The Amazon series allows gender-changing in reborning, independently of the dark lord.

 But it doesnt make sense.. unless the previous dragon was a female and the female one power gets tainted, then the re-born could be a female. So I can go along with it being able to change over the course of the wheel turning, but for it to work, it has to be the same sex when they make the patch and then the next dragon seals it. 

[Harad the White]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

On an unrelated note, I don't understand how reviewers watched six episodes and don't find any of the EF5 characters distinctive.

It's a generic criticism that lazy incompetent reviewers make.

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

I am not privy to where Amazon is going. But, these details about Saidin seem irrelevant if the DR can be a woman.

 

I mean, the world (in the TV series) has no control about what sex the Dragon is reborn as.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[Akragard]

7 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

I am not privy to where Amazon is going. But, these details about Saidin seem irrelevant if the DR can be a woman.

Ooh, Egwene can be the DR and Rand can go mad and become one of the Forsaken.  Let's go balls to the walls with the crazy.  Then Egwene can take Rand's body at the end of it all.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Akragard

[Starganderfish]

Just now, Joe B said:

"And him they named Dragon. Now, this man has been born again. We don't know where or to whom. If he was reborn as a girl or a boy. The only thing we know for certain is that this child is coming of age now, and we must find them... before the Dark does."

 

I wonder if we'll get the Karatheon cycle and the prophecies of the Dragon, or just vague legends and myths?

 

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

On an unrelated note, I don't understand how reviewers watched six episodes and don't find any of the EF5 characters distinctive. Even on episode three they all have their unique personalities.

 

Maybe they just didn't feel invested, sure. But there is certainly enough there for them to be distinctive characters.

There hasn't been a whole lot of in depth characterisation, and a lot of its kind of shallow (Perrin Fridged his wife, Matts a thief and from an abusive home, Rand and Egwne are boning but they're not, Nynaeve aint from around here and is like 25 but also a village elder and apparently a ninja?...)
Plus non-book fans have a lot of info-dumping to deal with and not a lot of explanation. T'averren, One Power (which has two parts), Dragons and Trollocs and Shadar Logoth that was Aridhol but failed Manetheren in the Trolloc wors, which is different to Artur Hawkwings war... there's a lot going on and a lot hasn't been very well explained. 

[Harad the White]

Just now, flinn said:

But it doesnt make sense.. unless the previous dragon was a female and the female one power gets tainted, then the re-born could be a female. So I can go along with it being able to change over the course of the wheel turning, but for it to work, it has to be the same sex when they make the patch and then the next dragon seals it. 

Great. It's taken me a while to get this point across. I blame myself.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

I mean, the world (in the series) has no control about what sex the Dragon is reborn as.

Books are clear that the Dragon is always a dude.

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

 

Ishy was convinced they were locked in a repeating battle. Certainly LTT was, but I'm not sure Ishy was right that Ishy was always the nemesis. I think he confused himself with the DO.

 

Also, we don't know if LTT was ta'veren in the AOL. Maybe he was, but the phenomenon of ta'veren was unknown in the AOL.

I don’t remember if it was actually confirmed but there was definitely talk  from the Forsaken of how lucky Lews Therin was, which is definitely reminiscent of ta’veren