full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[MasterAblar]

I really don’t understand the inclusion of the “we don’t know where he was born line.” That’s clearly what forced out the god awful line about taveren. But why even say it? If you do reveal that the kid was born on Dragonmount nothing points to Rand at the beginning, especially since they’re omitting (at least for now) the fever dreams. And you can even just avoid pointing it out just like in the books if you want to make sure not to take risks with the Dragon Reborn mystery.

[Akragard]

4 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

True. And what about the gender makes them the Dragon? It's not that they're superstrong channelers. Women do that too.

From my very first post, I pointed out and still believe that the only meaningful change from the book was this very point: the possibility of a female DR. As you point out the Dragon was a male in the book, and thus the DR is a male. Thus, the series allows gender changes in the reborning process. My other point about gender neutrality is that either sex in that world can, in priciniple have Dragon powers. 

But then if a woman caused the breaking, it would have to be Saidar that was tainted, not Saidin.  If a woman broke the world, why would the counterstroke taint the other half of the One Power?  If it was indeed a woman, then men wouldn't be the ones who went mad and women wouldn't be in power and trusted while men were hunted.

 

Or is your point that the soul could have been a man when he broke the world and then switch to a woman as the Dragon Reborn, thus negating the madness and making her an unstoppable force, able to be trained by women who won't go mad to use the One Power, where male channelers can just be eradicated?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Akragard

[Jackdaw_Fool]

1 minute ago, KingBeyondTheFirewall said:

This also makes me think why Moiraine was asking Nynaeve about where she was born?

Yes exactly. I'm wondering about that too. That's actually why I said I think the dragonmount thing is out (based on Moiraine's narration) but... Maybe there is still more to the story on this in the show.

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

As you point out the Dragon was a male in the book, and thus the DR is a male. Thus, the series allows gender changes in the reborning process.

What? 

How did you get Male soul to male body equating gender  change.

[Starganderfish]

16 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

But can she lie if it’s only in her head? I mean, it’s narration. 

The oath against lying is deeply problematic. As a fun little game, go through the books and count how many times the pre-severing Siuan threatens to "gut someone like a fish" or "turn you into fishbait".?

 

I beleive at one point Jordan tried to back himself out of a corner by stating that an Aes Sedai can lie if "they beleive what they are saying is true, or is somthing they don't mean literally". The "take things literally" thing becomes important because there's a LOT of sracasm and hyperbole from Aes Sedai. I'm sure half the idel threats or sarcastic jibes made in the books would slam right into the oaths.

In the case of the show and the DRagons borth, did she say "we don't know where the DR was born" or "I don't know where the DR was born". And by "we" does she mean none of the Aes Sedai know or just her and Lan aren't sure?
And, using typical Aes Sedai mental trickery - even in the books she doesn't know EXACTLY where he was born. "On the slopes of Dragonmount"... I mean, it's a pretty big mountain...

[DaddyFinn]

30 minutes ago, Joe B said:

"An Aes Sedai was BORN with eyes so white, she could not see"

True, I didn't remember that.

 

Maybe she has a Talent. Maybe she can "see" like Daredevil? ? Hopefully there's something that explains it.

[Akragard]

5 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

What? 

How did you get Male soul to male body equating gender  change.

Well, Aringor.  I mean, it has happened, but I think with the Dragon specifically it would just unbalance the whole story.  Not reborn in the same sense, but there is at least a precedent for it.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Akragard

[AusLeviathan]

19 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

If you do reveal that the kid was born on Dragonmount nothing points to Rand at the beginning, especially since they’re omitting (at least for now) the fever dreams.

I imagine that they originally did intend to do the fever dream in episode one, hence the lines about not knowing where the DR was born and rumors of Taveren were added to try and keep the mystery.

 

Then they presumably moved the fever dream to a flashback in episode 7 or 8 and just didn't bother to remove those lines.

Edited November 22, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Gothic Flame]

2 minutes ago, Starganderfish said:

The oath against lying is deeply problematic.

The oath about lying is easy to get around anyway.

Make an oath against practicing deception and that would be a pain in the butt.

[Starganderfish]

5 minutes ago, Akragard said:

But then if a woman caused the breaking, it would have to be Saidar that was tainted, not Saidin.  If a woman broke the world, why would the counterstroke taint the other half of the One Power?  If it was indeed a woman, then men wouldn't be the ones who went mad and women wouldn't be in power and trusted while men were hunted.

 

Or is your point that the soul could have been a man when he broke the world and then switch to a woman as the Dragon Reborn, thus negating the madness and making her an unstoppable force, able to be trained by women who won't go mad to use the One Power, where male channelers can just be eradicated?

Arang'gar. A male soul can't be naturally reborn into a female body and gain the power to channel Saider. Male souls channel male power and go in a male body. RJ has confirmed this previsouly in Q&A sessions. The Dark One has to play tricksy "Lord of the Grave" shtick to force a male soul into a fuly grown femal body, after remvong her soul, and even then he/she still channels Saidin.  

[Harad the White]

A step back. This is a fact about the series: They allow for a female DR. Don't ask me how the OG can be a male and the DR can be a female. I don"t know. But I do know that the Dragon powers are not gender-based in principle. The only way to square the circle is to allow gender changing in reborning.

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

True, I didn't remember that.

 

Maybe she has a Talent. Maybe she can "see" like Daredevil? ? Hopefully there's something that explains it.

 

Prescience from all the Spice imported from Arrakis. Those Bene Gess- er... I mean Aes Sedai...

[Elder_Haman]

29 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Because she said they don't know where the DR was born and she can't lie.

No she didn’t. She said they don’t know where the DR is. The lore hasn’t been changed. And we know we will see the Blood Snow, so we know that Rand’s birth has not been changed. 

[Akragard]

Just now, Starganderfish said:

Arang'gar. A male soul can't be naturally reborn into a female body and gain the power to channel Saider. Male souls channel male power and go in a male body. RJ has confirmed this previsouly in Q&A sessions. The Dark One has to play tricksy "Lord of the Grave" shtick to force a male soul into a fuly grown femal body, after remvong her soul, and even then he/she still channels Saidin.  

So then, Lews Therin/Rand al'Thor would only ever be a male, unless he was somehow forced into the opposite gender, but would still wield Saidin.

[Agitel]

I hope the blu ray release includes deleted scenes. I want to see what was on the chopping block.

[AusLeviathan]

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No she didn’t. She said they don’t know where the DR is.

Her narration does say they don't know where the DR was born.

Edited November 22, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Agitel]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No she didn’t. She said they don’t know where the DR is. The lore hasn’t been changed. And we know we will see the Blood Snow, so we know that Rand’s birth has not been changed. 

 

I just listened to the intro monologue again, and it is problematic. The Dragon has been born again. "We don't know where, or to whom." There's no "where they are." I feel like the "or to whom" keeps the sentence referring to the birth.

 

Maybe they'll hand wave it away, I don't think it's entirely unworkable, but it was sloppy, imo.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Agitel

[JenniferL]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

I hope the blu ray release includes deleted scenes. I want to see what was on the chopping block.

Streaming services don’t do physical media releases. The whole point is to get you to subscribe after all. 

[Akragard]

5 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

A step back. This is a fact about the series: They allow for a female DR. Don't ask me how the OG can be a male and the DR can be a female. I don"t know. But I do know that the Dragon powers are not gender-based in principle. The only way to square the circle is to allow gender changing in reborning.

What's the source?  As just stated by Starganderfish, RJ himself said the male soul is reborn to a male body.

 

Nevermind, I realize you are specifically referencing the show.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Akragard

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

I just listened to the intro monologue again, and it is problematic. The Dragon has been born again. "We don't know where, or to whom." There's no "where they are." I feel like the "or to whom" keeps the sentence referring to the birth.

I understood it to mean they didn’t know where the DR was currently. I’ll be shocked if he wasn’t born on Dragonmount. 

[Harad the White]

Just now, JenniferL said:

Streaming services don’t do physical media releases. The whole point is to get you to subscribe after all. 

I'll have to send back my Handsmaid's Tale blu rays then.

[Jackdaw_Fool]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No she didn’t. She said they don’t know where the DR is.

No, she actually says they don't know where the dragon was reborn. Well, these are the actual words anyway (not sure how to Aes Sedai speak around them):

 

"Now this man has been born again. We don't know where or to whom."

[Starganderfish]

6 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

A step back. This is a fact about the series: They allow for a female DR. Don't ask me how the OG can be a male and the DR can be a female. I don"t know. But I do know that the Dragon powers are not gender-based in principle. The only way to square the circle is to allow gender changing in reborning.

There are no "Dragon powers", not till way late in the book when Sanderson starts playing around with Rand and LTT"s merged souls. The Dragon is a male channeller, Ta'verren and most pwerful Channeller in history.  He is also the same soul, reincarnated over and over again, Not a new soul, not "oh this turnig of the wheel it was a woman". He and Ishy have been fighting the same battle for eternity, through multiple turnings of the wheel.
He failed at the bore and the clap-back tainted Sai'din. If the Dragon had been a woman, she would have failed at the bore and Saidar would be tainted. But that would only whappen is she would have always been a woman, in every turning of the wheel.

The Draogn is inherently a man because souls can't gender swap (short of Dark One intervening) and even if the Dark One does, their OP alignment doesn;t channge. The Dragon can never be a female because he's always been a male, because thats what his soul is. Wheel of time turns, ages come and go etc etc. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Starganderfish

[Agitel]

Just now, JenniferL said:

Streaming services don’t do physical media releases. The whole point is to get you to subscribe after all. 

 

Oh no, I think you're right. I guess HBO is... or was... different.

[MasterAblar]

10 minutes ago, Starganderfish said:

The oath against lying is deeply problematic. As a fun little game, go through the books and count how many times the pre-severing Siuan threatens to "gut someone like a fish" or "turn you into fishbait".?

 

I beleive at one point Jordan tried to back himself out of a corner by stating that an Aes Sedai can lie if "they beleive what they are saying is true, or is somthing they don't mean literally". The "take things literally" thing becomes important because there's a LOT of sracasm and hyperbole from Aes Sedai. I'm sure half the idel threats or sarcastic jibes made in the books would slam right into the oaths.

In the case of the show and the DRagons borth, did she say "we don't know where the DR was born" or "I don't know where the DR was born". And by "we" does she mean none of the Aes Sedai know or just her and Lan aren't sure?
And, using typical Aes Sedai mental trickery - even in the books she doesn't know EXACTLY where he was born. "On the slopes of Dragonmount"... I mean, it's a pretty big mountain...

True, I suppose Aes Sedai trickery could in theory cover it. Still don’t see what the point of the line is though if they’re just gonna back out of it.