tv show spoilers S1E8: The Eye of the World

[Khan of Shadows]

My original post --

 

Just finished watching the WOT finale. Truly disheartening stuff, less because Rafe and his team made changes to the source material, but more because the changes they made confirmed many of our worst fears re their creative instincts. 

 

The episode's technical flaws should be obvious to anyone who watched it and struggled to follow just what the hell was going on during that battle, but I'm more interested in the creative choices Rafe, etc. made in adapting the latter part of EOTW. 

 

Certain changes early on in the series -- most notably Perrin killing his wife -- seemed ill advised to me, but I was able to shake them off because you could feel the love the writers had for this world and the thrill of seeing that world brought to life trumped any concerns I had re story alterations + whether the show could withstand critical scrutiny. What was different about the finale, however, was that, despite earlier complaints from certain fans about "wokeness," it wasn't until this episode that Rafe's ideology, politics, call it what you want, really seemed to get in the way of the story. 

 

Just speaking for myself, going into the finale it was easy to dismiss most of the criticisms about the show's politics because they generally seemed to take the form of complaining about diversity casting (something that most people, including me, welcomed) or pointing out the lack of realism in isolated Two Rivers being non-homogenous, as if anyone should give a bleep about that sort of realism in a show about magic. Likewise, it was hard to see how gay warders was a problem (if you want to talk about realism, btw, why wouldn't that be a thing?), nor did I have an issue with the Moraine Siuan pairing, even if I wouldn't have gone that route, mainly because I think it's important the audience experience Moraine as the other characters experience her (single-minded, inscrutable, etc.). But the changes in the finale, many of which were devised to improve the book's treatment of gender, were unfortunately uncreative and intellectually shallow in ways that did real harm to the overall story. 

 

A friend of mine pointed out after episode 6 that the show would have been better served by a female showrunner, and while I think it's impossible to say whether that's true or not (it seems that most of the other writers are female) it certainly felt right as I watched a finale that artistically seemed informed by ideology rather than lived experience. There's a try too hard self consciousness that comes through strongly in the Rafe written episodes' attempts to improve the source material's treatment of gender, whether it's in the shift from Lews Therin being both desperate and hubristic to merely hubristic, or the treatment of Agelmar and Amalisa. 

 

In the latter case, note how limited the show is not just in imagination but true feminist understanding. Rafe and his people correctly identify Robert Jordan's depiction of Amalisa as something that can be improved upon, but they're unable to figure out a way to bring Amalisa to life without diminishing Agelmar, who goes from being one of the great generals and a man who reveres Aes Sedai, to a boorish, prideful man who *interrupts* (groan) Moraine Sedai and only redeems himself somewhat once he's able to acknowledge that sis was right about everything. A lot of people have identified this kind of thing as an example of misandry, but really, I think it's more about laziness and shallowness. The show does this kind of thing throughout the season, meaning, it's solution to the gender issue is to basically steal valor from a male character and give it to a female character, instead of just creating more space for female valor, or even challenging gendered notions of what valor looks like. You see this again during the big Fal Dara battle where Agelmar gets unceremoniously killed by a Trolloc while firing a crossbow behind a brick wall (yeesh) and Rand's big moment from the book is handed off to Nynaeve, Egwene, and Amalisa, which of course just adds to the sense that this Dragon stuff is overhyped. 

 

(Caveat here is that certain changes to the story might require Rand to hold off on the big reveal/display of power, but surely there was a better way to handle that moment?)

 

This brings us to the biggest problem with the finale and series in general, which is that it's painfully clear (IMO) that Rafe feels insecure about the story's central character being a cis white male. You can almost imagine the conversations taking place in the writers' room: "How do we address the fact that we have this story about a world broken by men and guided by powerful women that on the surface would seem to challenge traditional fantasy gender tropes, but which, at the end of the day still boils down to a MAN saving the world." It's a valid question, but nothing I've seen from Rafe so far gives me confidence that he has the gravitas and intellectual depth to answer that question in a way that honors the source material while creating something new and valuable. 

 

One answer to that question might be to not try to adapt WOT in the first place. Bummer, for sure, but I could understand someone not wanting to tell yet another story about a white guy saving the world. But if you are going to tell this story you need to he comfortable with the fact that The Dragon Reborn -- your main or at least most pivotal character -- IS a man and not try to compensate for that fact with insecure and self conscious creative choices that weaken your story, like establishing that the DR could be any gender (by all means, establish that the Dragon has been both over the ages, but what makes the Dragon Reborn so terrifying in THIS age is that ppl associate him with chaos and madness, along with salvation), or reducing Rand's struggle in season 1 to some facile fight against male domination and denial of female agency/personhood (see how the character has purified himself!) as opposed to something universal and more transcendent. 

 

I'm mostly rambling at this point, so let me end this rant with a suggestion. Rafe self-identifies as a feminist, so how 'bout in that spirit he hands over the writing/creative duties to women, but not the ladies in his Nasty Women for Biden FB group (relax, this is a joke and I voted for Biden, too), but to actual artists, the kind whose social commentary is transcendent in a Shakespearean way, NOT in a 2010s politics-informed-by-social-media way? 

 

Cool?

 

[RhienneAgain]

16 hours ago, 7th age said:

 

Since this is a response to a response to a post of mine, but more importantly because this seems to be the main dividing point over which this fanbase splits I feel I should make myself very clear here.

 

For context let me first say that Im a lefty. I dont live in the USA but if I was Idve voted for Bernie. I also consider myself a first and second (but not third) wave feminist and I have attended anti-neonazi protests since I was 12. This is to dispell any notion that I am somehow "anti-woke". I wouldnt consider myself "woke" either (I hate that word, in part because it is used as a slur by people who often(but not always) are quite openly racist and misogynist, but mostly because it is imprecise)

Im also a trained physicist/scientist, meaning I was trained to seperate the analysis of a problem from the judgement that only follows after.

 

Now, when analyzing this one has to be very careful, because if you view something through a colored lens everything becomes monochromatic and most of the time, if you search for signs of something hard enough, you end up finding them and ignoring everything else. Certainly some of the "nerfing all the men"-crowd have fallen into this trap which amuses me greatly as it reminds me of the feminist complaint that female videogame characters (think LoL here) are often portrayed in a sexist way, scantily clad armor, big boobs etc. , which is true but completly ignores that the same is true for the men, i.e. giant muscles, chisseled chins etc...

 

 

 

That all being said, it is impossble for me to deny that modern feminist ideology has played a part in shaping this season. Whether or not I think that is good or bad in each individual case is immaterial to this at first.

 

 

Now there are plenty of other reasons that should be considered first when analysing this.

 

For example, the downpowering of Logain (he gets held by 2 -3 AS instead of 6 if i remember correctly) has nothing to do with a desire to "nerf men" and everything to do with an episode that doesnt work so well if most of the scenes happen in an overcrowded cave. Could you avoid this by changing the setting? Yes, but thats a whole lot of cost (lets remember here that most ppl think ep 4 was the best or at least close) for not a lot of gain (Logains accurate strength beyond he is strong is irrelavant to the series).

 

Similarly you can argue that showing the womens circle is important for Nynaeve and Egwene and gives us the river scene which I think most bookies liked, whereas showing the Village Council would do nothing similar for the boys(though it would show balance, but time is scarce).

There are other examples.

 

 

When we want to actually understand whether or not ideology plays a part in this season or not we first need to define what exactly we are talking about. In the shortest way possible, the heart of modern (third wave) feminism /wokeness in general is the denial of biological sex as a relevant factor and instead explaining everything in terms of gender or sociological/psychological sex (which to me is just as absurd as most right wing positions that try to postulate the opposite, obviously both biology AND sociology play a role in forming humans).

It also includes a normalizing of non heteronormative sexual relations(which I personally think is a good thing so long as it means being tolerant towards those that get born with these inclinations but can become a bad thing if it is expected to be the new norm, i.e. just because Im in favor of viewing LGBT people in the same light as everyone else doesnt negate the fact that the large majority  are plain old heteros)

 

Now these two "tropes" can be found abundantly throughout the season and this is where it becomes clear that at the very least this worldview of the showrunners has influenced their decision making, at worst they are actively trying to rebuild parts of the world of WoT in this image. At this point I will remind you guys that Rafe said this before the season ever started, he thinks there are things that Jordan would have written differently if he were to write the books today and he hopes to implement this ...

 

But lets get more concrete. In no less then 4 episodes in a row we get told/shown how normal homo/bi sexual relations are. Dana mentions it at length in ep 3 . we get humorously shocked Nyn in ep4,  Lan and Steppin talk about it in ep5 (which is actually very offensive as they almost imply that being gay/bi is a choice, a notion the gay community has fought for decades) and then we get Moirain and Siuan.

None of these thing bother me on their own, I expected Siuan and M. and I found Nyn reaction funny, but together they start to paint a picture here, because after all screen time is very very valuable...

 

Lets get to the first "trope", the denial of biological differences. Obviously this is not to mean that men have Boobs or can carry babies etc..  Rather it goes into into denying/minimizing the differences that come with men being physically superior but less socially/emotionally adept.

This is why we have scenes like Egwenes father being super worried, Steppin moping about instead of going out in a rageinduced berserkersuicide and ofc Lans whole transformation from "stoneface" to crying at a funeral and being quite in touch with his feelings. Again, this isnt necessarily bad. I think it works when it comes to Lan/Nyn especially because being stoic doesnt mean you are emotionally inept, just that you arent prone to showing emotions in public. I really didnt like it at the funeral, because here it seems forced to me (but thats just opinion). 

This also seems part of the reason why we get to see a whole lot of tears and crying and whining from Rand and Perrin. Im not saying that this was done bad or without incharacter reasons, but  it was a choice to focus, especially Perrins arc, on this. They could have chosen to highlight other parts just as well but didnt.

 

Now for the minimizing of difference in physical strength.

This starts with the Emondsfield women being the only resistance to the trollocs, goes on to Dana trapping and chasing Rand with a sword and lands in the sacrifice of the core principals of the Borderlanders(for people who claim to admire the diversity of RJs cultures they sure didnt  care about this one). The Borderlander culture is based on chivalry. They would rather die then let a women take a wound. Throughout the series there are loads and loads of rules set by women that the men have to and do follow, remember what Agelmar tells rand when  he wants to say goodbye to Egwene, they do not necessarily understand the womens rules, but they abide by them. So it is not a matter of disrespect. The price for this chivalry is the (afaik)  ONLY rule ever imposed on women by men, that is they are not allowed to fight shadowspawn / join the men fighting in the blight(not even Tenobia, queen of Saldea could break this even though she manages to ignore it at the LB and promptly gets herself killed). I wrote about this earlier, this always made supreme sense to me, for one because women on average are physically much weaker then men (womens football/soccer nationalteam cant win against an average U16 mens club even though at that age there is almost no height difference, also Siuan Sanche agrees, see the TGH lection with Nyn/Eg), but more importantly because while you can ask people to die in a hopeless fight against the shadow in order to protect their loved ones and most will be willing to take on enormous risk, but if you ask them to die WITH their loved ones/wives and especially children any decent husband/father will take his family and run.

But instead of showing this as one of many cultures we get to see loads of women with swords and armor and Amalisa calls on all women and children to stay and fight/die(after all she doesnt expect to win here).

 

Now finally for the part that doesnt need any "trope". In ep.1 Moiraine clearly states that "the arrogance of men" was responsible for the breaking. At the time I wrote this of as unreliable narration which made sense to me in a world where the prophecies are muddled, but the cold open of season 8 flatout confirms this to be true. It is not arrogance and desperation, it is not due to the fact that the plan of the women /LPD for whom if I remember correctly LTT orignally postponed his plan at first and only came back to it later after the womens plan became untenable, it is purely due to the arrogance of men (whereas the women were wise enough to exactly forsee the consequences of something that has never been done before...).

It is those last 2 things, both happening in ep8 that broke the camels back for me.

 

Note that I am not going into a lot of the complaints voiced here before:

- Lan getting responsibility for the break up of the group (M. says your losses are my losses, but she is unconscious at the time and  warns against it before) but not getting his decapitating a Fade moment; 

the whole tracking thing;

-M. Eg. Nyn. and Shaiel getting their visually awesome moments, most if not all of which I liked (someone noted earlier that badass moments dont make strong characters which might be true for the poster but is at least only half true for the vast majority of viewers, Nyns explosion as well as the fight are  a big reason ep.4 was so well received, also lets not kid ourselves people watched GoT because of battles and dragons and smart intrigue not because they enjoyed cersei drinking wine and looking out of a window) but there being nothing remotly similar for the men up to them giving Rands power moment to the women;

-giving Mat and Perrin nasty backgrounds and nasty endings (ones a potential DF at this point the other just lets his friend bleed out and the Horn just taken away, heck even if he follows the Way of the Leaf he couldve tried to at least block them and then get knocked down or wounded, the tinkers did it earlier)

-etc.

 On their own all these things can be explained by other factors which is why I dint include them in my original argument, but the sheer number of them adds weight to the general argument.

 

There is also at least one (very minor yet still I hoped for this before the season) aspect to this that i think is 100% positive, they managed to show non-gratitious nudity (bathhouse scene with the first selector), something that could be very helpful in properly implementing various scenes later one as well as something that I would not trust a hetero, non-nudist, man to get right.

 

 

All in all I think it is fair for everyone to judge the success and extent of these influences for themselves and we can argue/debate the merits/faults of them to our hearts content afterwards, but to actually say that there simply are no such influences, even after watching the whole season and actually reflecting on it is absurd.

 

 

 

ps. Im new here and certainly dont feel  in a position to demand new threads plus Im aware that this discussion was raging (and probably getting out of control sometimes) even after the first 3 episodes were released and I think the mods shut down some threads due to repetetivness and maybe toxcicity of the debate, but as this seems to be one of the main topics and we can now discuss this with the full season watched maybe it would be appropriate to concentrate this topic in a new thread, should the mods choose to do so so certainly feel free to transfer this post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to say, I think your post is fantastic.  This divide between viewers has led to openly hostile exchanges, but I think also permeates a lot of posts in a more subtle way where people perhaps feel uncomfortable stating their views because of how they will be received.  You've moved the discussion of this potentially tricky and sensitive issue on in a respectful and constructive way, and in one which prompts reasoned and open debate.  Bravo in my opinion!

[flinn]

51 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

I guess in response I gotta ask...why do you think the difference between Saidin and Saidar is the very heart of the story?  As opposed to, say, "It was all of them" or any number of other really important themes the story delves into?

 In the big picture.. tainting Saidin is a major part. It is the taint that drives men insane and more importantly breaks down the barriers so that Rand can remember his past life. Without the ability to remember his past life, Rand would not succeed. Also, to repair the seal perfectly it requires the use of saidin/saidar/true power. That is also a major plot point that is necessary for the physics and logics to make sense. The main point of the Wheel of Time is balance, that is why the yin/yang symbol is so important.

[Padmehlc]

3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Lol I can't imagine what it was like watching that the first time. I would have just looked at my girlfriend like "um are you getting any of this?"

Yup thats basically how it went, but I was watching alone so I checked my glass to make sure it was just water like I thought I grabbed.

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

Aes Sedai habit and trickery.  She never says the lack of time is why she can't teach him or that if there was time she could teach him.  She let's him conflate two statements together.  That way she doesn't have to admit to weakness or lack of knowledge.

For a show that is using the idea of the unreliable narrator constantly, it would seem be a strange thing for them to have an Aes Sedai be worried about.   She tells him over and over in the books that no woman can teach a man.   Unless they are trying to imply that it actually IS possible for a woman to teach a man, because there is no difference between Saidin and Saidar.   

[WheelofJuke]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

So rewatched and thought specifically on Agelmar's situation.
 

Enemy army is 60 Fades and 5k-10k Trollocs (So may be far less than the 10k people keep throwing around).  Yeah Nynaeve says 10k-20k  but we're talking about the words of trained scouts used to shadowspawn vs an untrained person guessing after a single look.
 

DFs are in the city and have sabotages the drawbridge meaning there's a large opening into the city instead of a fully defensible fortification.  Now I think scripting is poorly worded her since there'd be failsafes to the drawbridge, but ultimately the issue is the city can't be made fully defensible.
 

At this point Agelmar decides to bring all his forces to the Gap.  Not because "Let's last stand!" But because Fal Dara is not defensible so the best chance is to make sure the place that IS defensible holds.

During the armoring scene they mention Agelmar's father didn't think the gap could hold against a 1000 Trollocs.  Regardless of what you think of the power's involvement or not, That would suggest that Agelmar is facing a force at least 5 times larger than what was seen as near unwinnable.
 

In regards to the Power.  Agelmar admits they didn't ask the Tower for help.  Given what we as book owners know about Malkier, there's reason for Agelmar's mistrust and lack of assist.
 

Agelmar also flat out feels the battle is unwinnable and thinks this is the start of Tarmon Gaiden versus just a massive assault.  He thinks he's trying to delay so the rest of the world can ready, which means defense at all costs vs smart tactics and victory.  Even Ituralde goes this route in the last book.
 

Looking closer at the Gap Fortress again, I'm unsure why anyone argues all the archers need to be on top, where they're exposed.  There's a reason for those arrow slits and they're built to give angle of fire for the archer but next to no opening for the enemy to launch back in.

 

Algemar's downfall was listening to the Rope Weavers' Guild instead of the Chain Forgers' Alliance when procuring materials for the drawbridges. ?

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

Aes Sedai habit and trickery.  She never says the lack of time is why she can't teach him or that if there was time she could teach him.  She let's him conflate two statements together.  That way she doesn't have to admit to weakness or lack of knowledge.

I’m not talking about Moiraine, I’m talking about the moronic writers who couldn’t find a single opportunity in the entire season to convey an integral piece of lore even though the opportunity was staring them in the face.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Mirefox

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Honestly, the Shienarans being heavy Cavalry always confused the heck out of me.  All four border lands are based on defensive strategy trying to hold back the blight.  That would suggest some cavalry but mostly archer/artillery and infantry.

Saldea makes sense with their light cavalry because we know from the map that the nastier part of the blight is the one north of Shienar.  Out by Saldea it's likely more raids and mobility is key to respond to groups of trollocs in numerous places.  

But Shienar as Heavy Cavalry only makes sense if they're just a support segment for Malkier.  But since Malkier's fall they managed to make Fal Dara a fortress, set the Gap up.  So they clearly were thinking about defensive tactics.

My memory is that the Shienarans were heavy cavalry, with the Saldeans being the light cavalry.  They often fought together.   With no help, perhaps the Sheinarans should have changed tactics, but their doctrine was so ingrained that changing tactics would be difficult.

 

Rather than a support segment, they were probably used at the front lines as shock troops, breaking up the enemy formations so that the light cavalry, infantry and archers could handle the smaller groups and individuals who broke through the first line of battle. 

 

Tactics of heavy cavalry using lances

Medieval European knights attacked in several different ways, implementing shock tactics if possible, but always in formations of several knights, not individually. For defense and mêlée a formation of horsemen was as tight as possible next to each other in a line. This prevented their enemy from charging, and also from surrounding them individually. The most devastating charging method was to ride in a looser formation fast into attack. This attack was often protected by simultaneous or shortly preceding ranged attacks of archers or crossbowmen. The attack began from a distance of about 350 metres and took about 15–20 seconds to cross the contemporary long range weapon's effective distance. A most important element, and one not easily mastered, was to stay in one line with fixed spaces while accelerating and having the maximum speed at impact. Often knights would come in several waves, with the first being the best equipped and armored. The lance as a primary weapon pierced the enemy. If an enemy soldier was hit in full gallop by a knight's lance couched under the armpit, he was thrown backwards with such a momentum that he knocked over several of his compatriots, and was more often than not, killed; in some cases, the lance would even skewer the man and kill or wound the soldier behind him. The heavy lances were dropped after the attack and the battle was continued with secondary weapons (swords, battle-axes, war-hammers, or maces).

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Yojimbo said:

My memory is that the Shienarans were heavy cavalry, with the Saldeans being the light cavalry.  They often fought together.   With no help, perhaps the Sheinarans should have changed tactics, but their doctrine was so ingrained that changing tactics would be difficult.

 

Rather than a support segment, they were probably used at the front lines as shock troops, breaking up the enemy formations so that the light cavalry, infantry and archers could handle the smaller groups and individuals who broke through the first line of battle.

That has a few flaws.  

#1: Saldea is the opposite end of the Borderlands from Shienar.  I'm sure all four would work together as needed but Saldea would not be a reliable source of aid for Shienar in any type of emergency.

#2: I thought about tradition, but Malkier died 40 years prior to the start of the book?  In 40 years they adjusted for the Gap but not for military tactical changes?

That type of rigidity would make sense if the gap was just open and empty.  But then I think non-book readers would be saying "Why, in 40 years, did no one dig a ditch?"

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, flinn said:

 In the big picture.. tainting Saidin is a major part. It is the taint that drives men insane and more importantly breaks down the barriers so that Rand can remember his past life. Without the ability to remember his past life, Rand would not succeed. Also, to repair the seal perfectly it requires the use of saidin/saidar/true power. That is also a major plot point that is necessary for the physics and logics to make sense. The main point of the Wheel of Time is balance, that is why the yin/yang symbol is so important.

 

Good thing they introduced some of those concepts in the prologue to episode 8.

 

[RhienneAgain]

5 hours ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Doesn't solve the problem of the three oaths.

 

 

 

 

Yes.  There are three places (generally) you can put heavy cavalry in the terrain as laid out in the scene each have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

1.) In front of the wall 

2.) Inside the wall as a counter-attacking force if the initial attack bounces off the wall's defenses

3.) Behind the wall (either inside Fal Dara or just in front of Fal Dara)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly.  Trollocs are basically heavy cavalry/infantry.  Channellers would break their momentum but they are not very maneuverable and they can be fairly easily bypassed via simple momentum.

 

Also, take into account the channellers level of combat readiness.  Green sisters would work well in front of the wall.  Untrained or less trained channellers would be less effective.

 

 

 

I 100% don't agree with this.  They wanted to show that Agelmar was confident but not completely wrong.  The defense worked even if it was costly.   The dramatic stakes were the driving element of the battle's construction.   They wanted a costly victory or a near defeat based on how the battle progressed.

 

There's no reason to assume anything other than story functionality as a motive for any decision they made in the show.

  

 

 

Amalisa and the two random female channelers weren't bound by the three oaths so any tactical planning wouldn't need to consider them.

[flinn]

16 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Good thing they introduced some of those concepts in the prologue to episode 8.

 

 Yep, calling him the Dragon Reborn was a major F-up though. I have heard it was a mistake in editing but I dont think so. I dont think the writers have a clue.

[TheMountain]

For those who like the show, I have good news: once people like myself are done grieving, they will likely leave... and the forums once again will be populated by a majority that is optimistic and excited about the show... and then all will be rainbows and unicorns... at least until Season 2 ?

Edited December 28, 2021 by TheMountain

[WoTwasThat]

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

I guess in response I gotta ask...why do you think the difference between Saidin and Saidar is the very heart of the story?  As opposed to, say, "It was all of them" or any number of other really important themes the story delves into?

The dichotomy between Saidar and Saidin drives a great many of the plot points and mechanics of the series. From a metaphysical standpoint, it is this yin and yang that literally turns the wheel. But that the least important part. It is the taint upon Saidin that lead to the Breaking, and led to male channelers being singularly afflicted with madness, and then being hunted down and gentled despite one of them being prophesied to be the DR, who will be both savior and destroyer. It is what led to the creation of Machin Shin (because male channelers grew the Ways after the taint). It is why men can’t see women channeling and vice versa, which is a frequently important plot point. It’s why men can’t teach women, and vice versa, another important plot point. Male channelers can kinda feel women channeling, but not vice versa. The way men harness Saidin is totally different from women. Angreal and Sa’Angreal are gender-specific, another important plot point. By the way, this is what makes Mo handing Rand that Sa in Epi 8 kinda stupid and contrived, no? Here she is saying and thinking “it’s one of the 5” and probably Nyn or Eg, but she’s carrying around a male Sa? Or maybe she’s toting around a whole bag of em?

 

I could go on and on and I really shouldn’t have to explain this… the distinction between Saidin and Saidar is ESSENTIAL to the story - at least the true story, the one RJ wrote. It is what make WOT unique from just another magic fantasy series. And uniquely awesome. And it is being totally ignored so far. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by WoTwasThat

[TheDreadReader]

30 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Amalisa and the two random female channelers weren't bound by the three oaths so any tactical planning wouldn't need to consider them.

 

Yes.   Which brings it back to my original observation about their ability/skills being appropriate considerations for how they are deployed.

 

Are they trained well enough to be effective in that situation?   My assumption is that they are not.

 

[TheDreadReader]

41 minutes ago, flinn said:

 Yep, calling him the Dragon Reborn was a major F-up though. I have heard it was a mistake in editing but I dont think so. I dont think the writers have a clue.

 

Yet, they mentioned saidin and that it may be tainted by LTT's action.  Hence, my post.

 

As for calling LTT the dragon reborn, that is kind of a small one.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Yes.   Which brings it back to my original observation about their ability/skills being appropriate considerations for how they are deployed.

 

Are they trained well enough to be effective in that situation?   My assumption is that they are not.

 

And what would Amalisa have actually done without resources she didn't know she'd have.

Rewatch the scenes, it's not an even flow of Saidar flowing through each woman to Amalisa.  There's one or two wispy trails coming up to the two nameless women, a slightly thicker one going to Amalisa.

Then Nynaeve and Egwene have 5 and 3/4 respectively huge flows of Saidar traveling to them.   They provided 90% or more of the power being wielded.  Amalisa would have been largely useless under any eventuality they could have planned for.

[flinn]

10 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Yet, they mentioned saidin and that it may be tainted by LTT's action.  Hence, my post.

 

As for calling LTT the dragon reborn, that is kind of small one.

 

 

 Yep, of course I wasnt a part of the pre-discussion, only answered why the distinction between saidin/saidar was a major part of the series.

[TheDreadReader]

16 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

For those who like the show, I have good news: once people like myself are done grieving, they will likely leave... and the forums once again will be populated by a majority that is optimistic and excited about the show... and then all will be rainbows and unicorns... at least until Season 2 ?

 

Personally, I like the negative takes on the show.  It gives us stuff to discuss and consider.

 

I just wish some of the negative takes were less emotional and more analytical.   

 

 

[Mirefox]

16 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Yet, they mentioned saidin and that it may be tainted by LTT's action.  Hence, my post.

 

As for calling LTT the dragon reborn, that is kind of a small one.

 

 

Not even understanding your source material = kind of a small one?  A mistake like that in my like of work is called malpractice.

[Skipp]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

Not even understanding your source material = kind of a small one?  A mistake like that in my like of work is called malpractice.

We know that Rand and LTT are both the Dragon's Soul.  We know the AoL Aes Sedai named LTT the Dragon.  It is also likely the AoL understood the cycle of death/rebirth and the Wheel spinning out souls again.  So LTT is also The Dragon Reborn. 

 

The Show is really trying to show the infinite cycles thing, whether a mistake or not I think calling LTT The Dragon Reborn works to show that.

[VooDooNut]

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

We know that Rand and LTT are both the Dragon's Soul.  We know the AoL Aes Sedai named LTT the Dragon.  It is also likely the AoL understood the cycle of death/rebirth and the Wheel spinning out souls again.  So LTT is also The Dragon Reborn. 

 

The Show is really trying to show the infinite cycles thing, whether a mistake or not I think calling LTT The Dragon Reborn works to show that.

@Skippfor the win. I also believe this was purposeful and not  a writer's mistake. Like Rafe has said, there are seeds being planted for future moments. We may even see more LTT/Age Of Legends moments that add onto the cold open. I take the approach that some of the moments that don't make complete sense now will be revisited in future seasons.

 

Or, you know, show's doomed. ?

 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

9 minutes ago, Skipp said:

We know that Rand and LTT are both the Dragon's Soul.  We know the AoL Aes Sedai named LTT the Dragon.  It is also likely the AoL understood the cycle of death/rebirth and the Wheel spinning out souls again.  So LTT is also The Dragon Reborn. 

 

The Show is really trying to show the infinite cycles thing, whether a mistake or not I think calling LTT The Dragon Reborn works to show that.

This is what Marvel used to call a no-prize; explaining why one of their screw ups wasn't actually a screw up. Good job.

[Raal Gurniss]

27 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Personally, I like the negative takes on the show.  It gives us stuff to discuss and consider.

 

I just wish some of the negative takes were less emotional and more analytical.   

 

 

Hmm..Not sure that view has been so well received during the season run, some might say such things were stamped out in certain places..

 

I have seen criticism just point blank shutdown or even fully removed despite being quite valid and its only recently that it is even being remotely tolerated! Even independently mentioning the treatment given to criticism was removed…

 

Only place I have seen behave that way priorly was the Guardian several years back.

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

This is what Marvel used to call a no-prize; explaining why one of their screw ups wasn't actually a screw up. Good job.

 

I do believe this was an intentional change and not a subtitling error as they have used the term The Dragon Reborn like this in interviews.  But in the grand scheme of things this seems to be on the nitpicky side of things.