tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Zarathustra]

30 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Clearly people must be watching better productions! Because the editing, set design, lighting, speaks to extreme high quality in many ways, and while constructive criticism is always welcome, many comments have been downright fallacious by calling it D-movie level, or display commenters' own lack of understanding of how television and visual media works in general, especially during a pandemic. Not to mention that a lot of evidence about how it is apparently disliked often falls into the realm of anecdotal evidence, because of course the generally good reviews and outstanding success it has had in viewing numbers would likely not support their argument.

 

I don't enjoy the pacing either, but for instance, many seem not to parse production problems (a lockdown, a main cast member leaving, and Amazon only ordering 8 episodes even though the production team have consistently said that they also want more screen time). And as said before with the "low quality" complaints, many seem to either be genuinely searching for complaints or are apparently great connoisseurs of acting abilities, if they are to call the acting of some of the most acclaimed actors in the industry "high school drama" level. It is rather rare to see complaints that do not end up devolving to insults to Rafe, with apparently few users realizing that e.g. there are different writers like Justine Juel Gillmer writing this episode.

 

Once more, I do see a pervasive number of people who call themselves "book purists," yet their knowledge of the books is surprisingly lacking. I have not read every comment here, but it entertains me to read people claiming that e.g. not everyone is reincarnated in the books (they are), or that differences in recognizing female channelers in the books somehow means that damane cannot be found (even though it is canonical in the books that they simply test everyone with the a'dam, for instance).

Compare the production quality of Rafe's train-wreck to everyone's favorite benchmark (GoT).  One looks like a you-tube fan-fic production and the other looks like a high-budget, cinema quality, film.

 

Balefire is the only thing that could correct this aberration in the pattern.

[The Purple Ajah]

1 minute ago, Zarathustra said:

Compare the production quality of Rafe's train-wreck to everyone's favorite benchmark (GoT).  One looks like a you-tube fan-fic production and the other looks like a high-budget, cinema quality, film.

 

Balefire is the only thing that could correct this aberration in the pattern.

Could you please link me to a YouTube fanfiction production with the same quality of Wheel of Time, please and thank you?

 

I also believe you may be forgetting that

• early Game of Thrones was "cheap", even for 2011 as HBO was willing to give it more budget once it had proven itself as popular, and there were cost-cutting measures such as removing the most important battle of the first book
• There is no budget-munching material just as inherent to Wheel of Time in early Game of Thrones, such as channeling or monsters (their "monsters" were in just a couple of very short scenes early on).
• Even late Game of Thrones, I would say, has inferior costumes to early Wheel of Time:

Anyone who is knocking the costumes needs to tell me that this does not look like a soccer mom who got a sweater and a black cardigan and some dollar store fantasy jewelry, lmao.

[The Purple Ajah]

16 minutes ago, Cranglevoid said:

I was actually pleasantly surprised by this episode, even if it had a ton of stuff that pissed me off to no end.

 

Logain's speech was really good and Siuan manages to pull off that sense of power in a good way, though she was way too easy-going and lighthearted compared to the books.

 

And then they had to turn Siuan and Moiraine into lovers, for absolutely no reason at all. They could easily have pulled off the episode without it. But of course, they can't help themselves. They have to turn The Wheel of Time into their personal playground and just jam whatever crap that comes to mind into it.

 

And that's what makes me most angry about this series. They're treating it as if they own The Wheel of Time and they are free to do whatever changes they want. There's zero respect for the source material – they just see it as a gateway to inject their own stories through.

I can't believe Robert Jordan disrespected Robert Jordan's material when he made Siuan kiss Moiraine in New Spring and wrote notes that were published in the Companion about them being pillow-friends. Clearly Robert Jordan has no respect for Robert Jordan, and wanted to make the Wheel of Time into his own personal playground.

[Gothic Flame]

9 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

It is an adaptation, though

In your opinion.

In my opinion, this is "based upon the books."

 

10 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Rafe did say that people should anticipate changes

At this point I firmly believe he made a big gamble on his own ego. He thought he could lose the book-fans and gain more viewers by making these useless changes. Rafe...and his talent for writing, which is mediocre at best, puerile at its worst. 

 

I guess I see this as book-fans and Rafe-fans. Some see the two as compatible. I don't

[Yojimbo]

8 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Had it NOT been billed as an "adaptation of the books" made by a "fan of the books" you'd have a point. 

But selling "A Different Turn of the Wheel" might have been seen as problematic if Amazon wants to lure in an already built in fanbase.

 

This.   

 

You have to wonder, if they said upfront "well, we're not adapting the books so much as telling a story inspired by the books" would have caused many book fans to just not tune in.     Then again saying that might have tempered the expectations of many book fans so that when they saw how much had been changed it wasn't so jarring.   They appear to be trying to have it both ways.   It's a valid approach, but unless it is done really well it can lead to a lot of backlash.   

 

For example, the very first words I ever spoke to my wife were "So, I hear you've read LOTR?" We both love the movies too, despite the changes they've made (she's not a fan of the added Arwen material, but I like it - party because to be honest I find Liv Tyler to be simply gorgeous).   The reason we both love them is that it still "felt" like LOTR to us.   We both cried when they first showed the Shire.  

 

This "adaptation" of WoT just doesn't "feel" like the same story.  It is the result of dozens of small (and some not so small) things.   Some people are able to accept it as it is.  Some can't.  For some, as long as they reach certain milestones from the books, they can see it as WoT, but for me, characters have always been the most important thing, and these people don't feel like the people I connected to in the books.   I cannot help but expect that the longer it goes, the further it will get from the story I remember.   Will Rand be the DR?  Almost certainly, but then again that there is any possibility of anything else is frustrating.   Will he fight against his fate, or will he declare himself the DR the first time he channels, and thus change a lot of his story arc in TGH and TDR?   Right now, my feeling is that they would have to do an awful lot to redeem this in the last two episodes and give me any hope that season 2 can right the ship.  But based on what I have seen so far I don't have much faith that they will. 

[Zarathustra]

22 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Could you please link me to a YouTube fanfiction production with the same quality of Wheel of Time, please and thank you?

 

I also believe you may be forgetting that

• early Game of Thrones was "cheap", even for 2011 as HBO was willing to give it more budget once it had proven itself as popular, and there were cost-cutting measures such as removing the most important battle of the first book
• There is no budget-munching material just as inherent to Wheel of Time in early Game of Thrones, such as channeling or monsters (their "monsters" were in just a couple of very short scenes early on).
• Even late Game of Thrones, I would say, has inferior costumes to early Wheel of Time:

Anyone who is knocking the costumes needs to tell me that this does not look like a soccer mom who got a sweater and a black cardigan and some dollar store fantasy jewelry, lmao.

Star Trek: Renegades, for example, is better than Rafe's WoT and they only had 350k.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Zarathustra

[Daenelia]

As a fan of the books I am clearing my mind of any pre-conceptions and expectations and focus on viewing the episodes as if they were new. It is hard, but I can do it and it improves the experience for me a 1000x.

 

Also, I am not allowed to spoiler anything for my guy who is kinda new to this (he read the first book but can't remember a single thing because he could not get through the prose...). He loved the last episode and I can't even bring myself to tell him the actor who plays Mat will change in s2. Because he'd consider that a spoiler ?

 

Now. I have been reading the nay sayers and non-fans of the tv show here and I really do not want to even go and try to change their minds. But maybe it helps if one gets out of the expectations one has due to their own inner theater of the mind whilst reading the books.

 

It is not a D-film, it is not a low-quality production and it is certainly treating the story as a story for people who have not read the book and are a little bit smart. But I guess that is just an opinion too. ?

 

I just do not understand why someone would watch episode after episode of a series one does not enjoy. Can someone tell me why? I certainly don't. Loads of series I started and then just did not finish because it was not entertaining to me and I hate wasting time on stuff I do not love or even like.

 

Why the self-flaggelation? Just love yourself enough to stop watching.

[LoRd PyrO]

41 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

Also, the muddiness/unintelligibility of dialogue seems to be a common objective complaint. 

 

This is the only series/movie I've had to watch entirely with the captions on because I can't hear any of the lines clearly.

I have also had that problem. I've had to rewind constantly just to catch everything being said. 

I'm sorry, I am American; I can't catch certain nuances in that heavy of an accent

[Daenelia]

1 minute ago, LoRd PyrO said:

I have also had that problem. I've had to rewind constantly just to catch everything being said. 

I'm sorry, I am American; I can't catch certain nuances in that heavy of an accent

Actually, we watch most new things with subtitles, including things with american accents. It seems to be a thing with modern productions, that dialogue just doesn't get captured well enough. Or it has to do with the balance between the score, sound effects and dialogue.

 

It's not because the group has 'heavy accents'. I am not a native English speaker, I can hear well enough if there is no music or sound effects going on.

[Agitel]

I'm hoping for some better scripting and direction next season. I do feel like something is off and hasn't corrected itself yet. There seem to be some implied admissions of difficulties like this from Rafe. He mentioned more time to do script editing for season two of all episodes together, difficulties with the visual effects teams and COVID, etc...

Edited December 11, 2021 by Agitel

[chri5]

5 hours ago, LoRd PyrO said:

I agree. Maybe if I hadn't read the entire series like 8 times, I may enjoy it. But, there are sooo many alterations it makes me cringe

That’s why. You’re only on reading 8. Once you’re past a dozen you stop taking it so seriously. ??

[Zarathustra]

2 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

As a fan of the books I am clearing my mind of any pre-conceptions and expectations and focus on viewing the episodes as if they were new. It is hard, but I can do it and it improves the experience for me a 1000x.

 

Also, I am not allowed to spoiler anything for my guy who is kinda new to this (he read the first book but can't remember a single thing because he could not get through the prose...). He loved the last episode and I can't even bring myself to tell him the actor who plays Mat will change in s2. Because he'd consider that a spoiler ?

 

Now. I have been reading the nay sayers and non-fans of the tv show here and I really do not want to even go and try to change their minds. But maybe it helps if one gets out of the expectations one has due to their own inner theater of the mind whilst reading the books.

 

It is not a D-film, it is not a low-quality production and it is certainly treating the story as a story for people who have not read the book and are a little bit smart. But I guess that is just an opinion too. ?

 

I just do not understand why someone would watch episode after episode of a series one does not enjoy. Can someone tell me why? I certainly don't. Loads of series I started and then just did not finish because it was not entertaining to me and I hate wasting time on stuff I do not love or even like.

 

Why the self-flaggelation? Just love yourself enough to stop watching.

I can't speak for anyone else, but, in my case, I think it's similar to the -50% of Howard Stern's audience that did not like him and just tuned in to hear what he was going to say next--I always liked Stern though.  I'm just interested in seeing how badly Rafe flays the source material and I'm still trying to figure out where the 10 mil per episode was allocated. 

 

Actually, I think I'm also trying to understand the arguments presented by those that praise the show.  As is, even ignoring the fact that the source material has been butchered and largely ignored, I can't see any justification for the praise directed at either the production quality or the writing--the story has so many holes that it could be used as a sieve.

[Gothic Flame]

11 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

Why the self-flaggelation? Just love yourself enough to stop watching.

I fully agree.

I gave it three episodes. My bro gave it four before quitting in disgust.

[WheelofJuke]

10 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

It is not a D-film, it is not a low-quality production and it is certainly treating the story as a story for people who have not read the book and are a little bit smart. But I guess that is just an opinion too. ?

 

I just do not understand why someone would watch episode after episode of a series one does not enjoy. Can someone tell me why? I certainly don't. Loads of series I started and then just did not finish because it was not entertaining to me and I hate wasting time on stuff I do not love or even like.

 

Why the self-flaggelation? Just love yourself enough to stop watching.

Thank you for the input. 

 

It's not a D-film, but it certainly doesn't seem best of the best, or even top notch. I'm not the best judge of that, but it's my opinion.

 

I kept watching in part because of enthusiasts saying "It'll get better, give it time, let the first season play out" et al. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, but it's not proving them correct, if anything it's more uneven with the ups and downs of quality. 

 

A good question re: self-flaggelation...part of it is not being able to tear myself away from a "trainwreck." Some of it has to do with another covid winter, etc. There's not much to do in the runup to the holidays, it's terrible weather out, and I'm more or less stuck inside. That has led me to...expand...my typical entertainment choices. Since I've been on board with this series since the mid ninties, I obviously chose something near and dear to my heart. 

 

[Vartija]

Conserning the script and dialogue, one thing that I keep waiting for is the kind of epicness or otherwise great scene that makes you go "wow". It could be a great dialogue, a spectacularily shot scene, a great tune of music in the right place or something. Because so far I just haven't really been wowed with this show. There haven't been many scenes that you feel like you have to rewatch because it felt so well made, or made you emotional. 

[WheelofJuke]

2 minutes ago, Vartija said:

Conserning the script and dialogue, one thing that I keep waiting for is the kind of epicness or otherwise great scene that makes you go "wow". It could be a great dialogue, a spectacularily shot scene, a great tune of music in the right place or something. Because so far I just haven't really been wowed with this show. There haven't been many scenes that you feel like you have to rewatch because it felt so well made, or made you emotional. 

I was honestly thrilled at a couple of the Ep. 4 moments: I actually DID rewatch the Grinwell cottage scene with the fade, as well as the Logain open. Those were the two qausi-"wow" moments for me so far. 

 

Which is why the last couple episodes have been such utter let downs. It felt like, "Okay, Ep. 4...this can be built upon" but then it was two steps (or more) back. 

[Yojimbo]

2 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

I was honestly thrilled at a couple of the Ep. 4 moments: I actually DID rewatch the Grinwell cottage scene with the fade, as well as the Logain open. Those were the two qausi-"wow" moments for me so far. 

 

Which is why the last couple episodes have been such utter let downs. It felt like, "Okay, Ep. 4...this can be built upon" but then it was two steps (or more) back. 

Episode 4 was the high-water mark for me too.   Despite much of it being an episode that had little relation to the books, I found the guy playing Logain to be really compelling.   Fantastic job by him.   I was going to quit watching, but this episode gave me a little hope.   But it has been downhill since.   

[Zarathustra]

40 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

I can't believe Robert Jordan disrespected Robert Jordan's material when he made Siuan kiss Moiraine in New Spring and wrote notes that were published in the Companion about them being pillow-friends. Clearly Robert Jordan has no respect for Robert Jordan, and wanted to make the Wheel of Time into his own personal playground.

You seem to have forgotten that New Spring was a prequel and published after the Siuan-Gareth thing had started.  There certainly was not a Si-Mo midnight stroll through a Gateway in the main sequence.  If anything, their allusions to hypothetical lives as wives and/or mothers and their eventual pairings with Garreth and Thom further justify such arguments.  It's a bit strange that anyone would attack those that have issue with that major change to the narrative.

 

Rafe tossed that one in for one reason:  he wanted to tap into the reservoir of praise reserved for narratives that are more inclusive.  It's odd though because he could have easily done that, early on, while remaining within the bounds of the source material by simply focusing on some of the Red characters--I guess he thought he'd receive more praise via the use of two central characters though.

[DojoToad]

33 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

I just do not understand why someone would watch episode after episode of a series one does not enjoy. Can someone tell me why? I certainly don't. Loads of series I started and then just did not finish because it was not entertaining to me and I hate wasting time on stuff I do not love or even like.

 

Why the self-flaggelation? Just love yourself enough to stop watching.

I did.

 

The only reason I'm still following the forums is because I love the books so much that I want the show to improve.  So I'm channeling my inner Nynaeve and scouting for signs...

[The Purple Ajah]

1 minute ago, Zarathustra said:

You seem to have forgotten that New Spring was a prequel and published after the Siuan-Gareth thing had started.  There certainly was not a Si-Mo midnight stroll through a Gateway in the main sequence.  If anything, their allusions to hypothetical lives as wives and/or mothers and their eventual pairings with Garreth and Thom further justify such arguments.  It's a bit strange that anyone would attack those that have issue with that major change to the narrative.

 

Rafe tossed that one in for one reason:  he wanted to tap into the reservoir of praise reserved for narratives that are more inclusive.  It's odd though because he could have easily done that, early on, while remaining within the bounds of the source material by simply focusing on some of the Red characters--I guess he thought he'd receive more praise via the use of two central characters though.

No I haven't forgotten that it was a prequel, but it's a shame that there is a tendency for people to forget the events of the actual books lol. I'm not denying that it's a change, but it's also a good change and one that has a basis in the book series.

 

People have been liking Moiraine and Siuan together since the books were first published, and yeah, I think that there is a genuine sense of inclusivity from making them main characters instead of a random Red sister. 

 

And I'm not going to lie: this relationship is more compelling and interesting than the very forced and boring relationships that are Siuan/Gareth and Thom/Moiraine, and an improvement on RJ's "experimented in college" approach to such relationships.

[Yojimbo]

6 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

No I haven't forgotten that it was a prequel, but it's a shame that there is a tendency for people to forget the events of the actual books lol. I'm not denying that it's a change, but it's also a good change and one that has a basis in the book series.

 

People have been liking Moiraine and Siuan together since the books were first published, and yeah, I think that there is a genuine sense of inclusivity from making them main characters instead of a random Red sister. 

 

And I'm not going to lie: this relationship is more compelling and interesting than the very forced and boring relationships that are Siuan/Gareth and Thom/Moiraine, and an improvement on RJ's "experimented in college" approach to such relationships.

Their having a sexual relationship is something I am completely indifferent to.   It may eliminate the  Suian/Gareth and Moraine/Thom relationships, but that is a change I can live with.   More important to me is that they had sexy times before Moiraine decided to tell Suian she had found the DR.  And that 4th oath scene was laughably bad in my opinion and a total waste of valuable time.   

[SinisterDeath]

16 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

On a possibly humorous note, we have seen several instances of drinking tea or making tea, and we have seen two bath scenes. Seems pretty WoT so far ? Just needs a bit more skirt smoothing, braid pulling, and sniffing. Someone give Egwene the common cold, quick!

 

I noticed on the subtitles they called out Siuan for sniffing.

[Zarathustra]

2 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

No I haven't forgotten that it was a prequel, but it's a shame that there is a tendency for people to forget the events of the actual books lol. I'm not denying that it's a change, but it's also a good change and one that has a basis in the book series.

 

People have been liking Moiraine and Siuan together since the books were first published, and yeah, I think that there is a genuine sense of inclusivity from making them main characters instead of a random Red sister. 

 

And I'm not going to lie: this relationship is more compelling and interesting than the very forced and boring relationships that are Siuan/Gareth and Thom/Moiraine, and an improvement on RJ's "experimented in college" approach to such relationships.

I think I'm missing that one.  Si and Mo only interact briefly in the main sequence and I only ever had the impression that they were two close friends that were very driven and had a singular goal--driven to the point that thoughts of relationships never even entered their minds.  There's certainly nothing (that I recall anyway) in the main sequence that would make anyone think that they were sexually interested in one another (or women for that matter).  If anything, statements about hypothetical lives as wives or mothers support arguments about how they preferred men.

 

I think Jordan wrote New Spring and included that as a nod to his fans that wanted Si-Mo while providing a prologue for established fans and a bit of bait for potential new fans.  I preferred the short about the 100 companions, but, that's the magic of art.

 

 

[DojoToad]

14 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

And I'm not going to lie: this relationship is more compelling and interesting than the very forced and boring relationships that are Siuan/Gareth and Thom/Moiraine, and an improvement on RJ's "experimented in college" approach to such relationships.

Thom and Moiraine always felt forced to me.  I was like Mat in the books: "When did this happen?"

 

Siuan and Gareth never bothered me.  Seemed organic.

[Lethira the second]

I have a lot of opinions on the show so far, not entirely positive. 

 

I just wanted to chip in how much I loved the scene with Siuan and Moiraine.  It was classy, the acting was amazing and something that evoked memories of those subtle little hints that Robert Jordan put in.  Regardless of the rest of the series and what it brings, that part was a win for me.