tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[dwn]

Some thoughts in no particular order:

 

I continue to like the depictions of madness.

 

Decent depiction of Aes Sedai and Warders. My only complaint is the colour-coded dresses are a bit much.

 

The shawls would have been nicer.

 

Not too keen on Liandrin. In the books she has a strong mix of sinister and petulance. This version is more like Toveine. The actress does a great job, though.

 

Interesting use of Kerene. I had to crack open New Spring to see if she was who I thought she was. Likely just a re-use of a cool name and/or easter egg for the fans. Too bad she died--I really liked the character.

 

"That woman is a snake." *snerk*

 

All of Lan and Nynaeve's interactions were well done. Arguably better build up than in TEotW.

 

I do not like the design of the great serpent rings.

 

I'm fine with Nynaeve's healing circle. Sure it's a bit silly, but no more so than half a dozen other things. She got angry, healed Lan without really knowing what she was doing, and had such lousy aim she hit everyone else in the room.

 

I don't think Logain saw Nynaeve channelling--as others have mentioned, I think it's meant to imply she's also ta'veren. It goes with the whodunnit nature of the TV story, and with the DF including her in who the DO is after. There's been occasional speculation for years (well, decades) that Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve were all ta'veran, just not as strong as Rand, Mat and Perrin.

 

The Fade scene was very well done.

 

Moiraine's puppy was weird.

 

Regarding shielding: per the books they're supposed to have six sisters holding shields on any man who can channel--since no one would be strong enough to break through that man shields. And they're not supposed to be linked since one sister melding the flows could be a weak point.

 

Tinkers are still annoying, but I like how Perrin's situation ties in so well here.

 

Alas, poor Else. Your little sister was cooler than you.

 

[RhienneAgain]

5 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Just thinking, it's safe to say Liandrin is having some fun dreams right? About 5 special people..?

 

Nyn's obviously the 5th which makes their convo a bit more interesting.

 

Also regarding the whole "feeling the spark", kinda guessing the AS feel similar to early book Moraine - she can channel, strong too, to old though, hasn't channelled yet, not worth the trouble (bloody wilders). 

Moraine even admits to dissuading Nyn and warns her: "once she starts..."

Though I would have enjoyed a subtle moment here, say two Reds walks by Nyn arrogantly and at the same time give her a good stare down or some such.. 

 

Interested to see how the next episode plays out with Nyn.

Yeah, I thought her conversation with Nynaeve was interesting (except the bizarre mispronunciation of her name and the lane excuse - Liandrin would have heard the name, not seen it written down - so I have no idea why the included that line).

 

I wasn't sure whether Liandrin had singled her out because i) she was having dreams about Nynaeve (and the other four); ii) she sensed Nynaeve's incredible potential strength; iii) she just wanted to mess with Moiraine.

[RhienneAgain]

3 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

except there is a minimum strength to be allowed to take the test as accepted and a higher minimum to take the test as AS - Sorilea is explicitly stated to be below threshold (as is Morgase and others) - so "the weakest AS" is a significant minimum level.

 

I thought once channelers linked it be and very hard to break a shield even if they were fairly weak..? (Maybe misremembering from books though)

[ForsakenPotato]

Super late to the party because of family stuff but finally watched ep 4. Overall still enjoying the show but did feel more mixed about this episode than some of the others, and ep 1 still remains my favorite. That said, I think it's awesome how many people are saying the later episodes are their favorites, seeing all the different perspectives is why I wanted to participate on this forum in the first place. Hopefully not repeating too much that's already been said a lot by others, but apologies if I am because I'm also still catching up on all the convos.

 

Things I liked:

- The detail of the huge shadow on the wall in the cave as Moiraine enters before talking to Logain was an excellent visual metaphor for the huge role she plays while having a smaller physical stature (I know there's complaints about the actress being tall but she's still quite slim and physically unimposing). I also still think Rosamund Pike is giving the best and most nuanced performance of all the main actors so far so I'm extremely excited for the episode that will focus on her.

- When Logain seems like he's gonna kill the dude but heals him instead really got me, and so did his tears at the end as he's realizing he isn't the dragon reborn. He's totally losing his marbles but also genuinely trying to be a good guy. Just wanna give him a hug, some hot cocoa, and a therapist.

- Rand isn't getting a ton of screentime but what he has sets him up really well for the challenges to come. For example, he's the one that convinces that family to let them stay in the barn. Later he'll realize he also got them killed by doing so, and it will be one more thing to lead him from nice-guy Rand to everyone-I-get-close-to-gets-destroyed Rand.

- They crammed a LOT of info into one episode (way of the leaf, distinctions among ajahs, Owyn, Birgitte, Malkier, etc) and while it occasionally felt too exposition-y it's great to see the show keeping most of the complexities from the books and setting the stage to build on all of these things in future episodes/seasons.

 

Things that didn't work for me:

- Some dialogue still felt uneven to me. Most of the tinker chats were awesome this episode but the Aram/Egwene convo about Rand felt very forced. Only on TV does someone see a person they've just met looking at some pretty stars and immediately assume they are pining for a lost love.

- The fighting/Power/scary Fade scenes felt like a weak point compared to the first episode. Rand, Mat, and Thom with the Fade for example was shaping up to be really cool except it was so short by the time I was getting into it everything was over.

- Still a little undecided about the Nyneave sequence at the end. I love that we see her getting so pissed at the injustice of it all and that's when her channeling happens! But it did feel early for her to do something that big (at this point in the books she isn't even willing to admit to herself that she can channel), and I miss the distinction from the books that healing is complex and strategic and involves actually taking time to diagnose things. That's why it's a more interesting use of the power than just blowing stuff up all the time (sry Rand).

 

Still very excited to watch the later episodes tho, and this felt like a classic mid-season set-up/worldbuilding episode so even though it wasn't my favorite it wasn't a disappointment for me either.

[Guire]

36 minutes ago, dwn said:

Some thoughts in no particular order:

 

I continue to like the depictions of madness.

 

Decent depiction of Aes Sedai and Warders. My only complaint is the colour-coded dresses are a bit much.

 

The shawls would have been nicer.

 

Not too keen on Liandrin. In the books she has a strong mix of sinister and petulance. This version is more like Toveine. The actress does a great job, though.

 

Interesting use of Kerene. I had to crack open New Spring to see if she was who I thought she was. Likely just a re-use of a cool name and/or easter egg for the fans. Too bad she died--I really liked the character.

 

"That woman is a snake." *snerk*

 

All of Lan and Nynaeve's interactions were well done. Arguably better build up than in TEotW.

 

I do not like the design of the great serpent rings.

 

I'm fine with Nynaeve's healing circle. Sure it's a bit silly, but no more so than half a dozen other things. She got angry, healed Lan without really knowing what she was doing, and had such lousy aim she hit everyone else in the room.

 

I don't think Logain saw Nynaeve channelling--as others have mentioned, I think it's meant to imply she's also ta'veren. It goes with the whodunnit nature of the TV story, and with the DF including her in who the DO is after. There's been occasional speculation for years (well, decades) that Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve were all ta'veran, just not as strong as Rand, Mat and Perrin.

 

The Fade scene was very well done.

 

Moiraine's puppy was weird.

 

Regarding shielding: per the books they're supposed to have six sisters holding shields on any man who can channel--since no one would be strong enough to break through that man shields. And they're not supposed to be linked since one sister melding the flows could be a weak point.

 

Tinkers are still annoying, but I like how Perrin's situation ties in so well here.

 

Alas, poor Else. Your little sister was cooler than you.

 

Agreed with most of your observations.  Puppy story worked on several levels.  Alana wanted to remind of their previous relationship as novices in order to interrogate her for Kerene.  The story hinted at Moraine being a loose cannon that skirted rules without flaunting it.  The story also implied that Moraine had liked picking up strays and caring for them while denying that she did so.   She currently has Nyn in tow.

[MasterAblar]

4 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

except there is a minimum strength to be allowed to take the test as accepted and a higher minimum to take the test as AS - Sorilea is explicitly stated to be below threshold (as is Morgase and others) - so "the weakest AS" is a significant minimum level.

 

My point wasn’t so much Aes Sedai specifically rather than women in general. But yes I assume it would take less than 12 full Aes Sedai, although probably not by much. There’s a massive difference between Logain and the weakest sister.

[Scarloc99]

58 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

Yeah, I thought her conversation with Nynaeve was interesting (except the bizarre mispronunciation of her name and the lane excuse - Liandrin would have heard the name, not seen it written down - so I have no idea why the included that line).

 

I wasn't sure whether Liandrin had singled her out because i) she was having dreams about Nynaeve (and the other four); ii) she sensed Nynaeve's incredible potential strength; iii) she just wanted to mess with Moiraine.

I am waiting Laindrin to be caught out by the audience in a subtle lie, this will be the easiest way to foreshadow what she is, 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Gypsum said:

To be honest, the misdirection towards Mat as the potential male channeller had me thinking, "Eh?" More than any other change thus far.  I get why they did it, in terms of driving a plot forward for those unfamiliar with the books, but I kind of wished they hadn't.

 

If everything else comes together, I can forgive them. I forgave Peter Jackson for that scene in the Two Towers where Aragorn is dragged over a cliff by whargs and his horse rescues him. That did not need to be there. But the rest of it was so good.

Try looking at it a different way, if Thom doesn't put Matts behaviour down to being a channeller (his only point of reference) then what do he and Rand ascribe it to? From a story perspective I understand your criticism but for Thom what is the alternative? Your friend has a really strange, seemingly magical induced sickness and is acting really strange, but, nope not a Channeller so it must all be ok? For the casual viewer that is even more of a stretch. 

[notpropaganda73]

Loved a lot about this episode. How they handled quite a lot of world building here has given me some more faith that they won't merge Machin Shin and Mashadar for example, as there are opportunities to simplify things for a TV audience and they haven't done it. I think it might be a bit frustrating at times from the POV of someone who doesn't know the books as they drop things in but don't fully explain them at times, but they really fleshed out a lot of important things for the series as a whole here:

 

- Aes Sedai/Warder bond (and the different types of relationships therein)

- The progression to madness with male channelers

- The danger of male channelers

- The internal politicking of the Aes Sedai (not fully fleshed out but enough here to show that the Aes Sedai aren't some unified force - I also enjoyed the comment that the Amyrlin Seat nearly came to get Moiraine and Lan herself, a nice nod to their ploy in the books as well). 

- Mat's sickness, the dagger & the Fade

- Lan & Nynaeve, Manetheren and Malkier

- The Way of the Leaf

 

I must say even as a huge book fan there were moments that I wasn't sure if they were going in a new direction with a character. I know there are a lot of complaints about the changes so far, but I genuinely for a moment thought that 1. Lan was dead & 2. Mat killed that family. My mind was racing for and then the hook came both times. Whatever criticisms we can all have about details and changes, I think it's testament to the show so far that moments like that are landing (maybe not for everyone lol). 

 

The show is still clunky at times with dialogue but I think this episode contained some of the best so far, and when they land the dialogue, *it really really lands*. Nynaeve and Lan's conversation, the Old Tongue and the translation honestly had me welling up. Ila's explanation to Perrin about her daughter and following the Way of the Leaf, it was an absolutely beautiful way to explain their philosophy and also get across once again the whole idea of the Wheel and lives being spun out and reborn. Aram's line about the leaf not resisting the wind, and sometimes it gets blown away from the tree. Logain's opening was brilliantly done as well (I think there is a very good chance that the shadows are Forsaken). 

 

I loved Nynaeve's explosion at the end. I have been sort of waiting and confused as to how they will reveal that she was a channeler. I thought they might show some improbable slice of luck when she was alone with the Trolloc for example. But this was a great reveal. 

 

My only complaint here is that the fight with the Fade should have lasted just a minute more. It was great but I wanted to see just a *little* more, and something with Rand trying to help but Thom pushing him away, or *something* extra. 

 

I also have 2 small questions, I can't quite remember from the books but: 

1. Perrin notes that some of the Tinkers look pretty rough/scarred. Ila explains that some of them were hired killers and gave it up? I had thought that anyone who committed violence was "lost" to the Tuatha'an? Or is it only if they not only commit the violence, but do not renounce it? I can't remember. 

2. Nynaeve's explosion, while a great moment, didn't quite sit with me as none of the AS made any mention or comment about her ability to channel. I thought all channelers could sense other channelers (of the same gender)? 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, dwn said:

Not too keen on Liandrin. In the books she has a strong mix of sinister and petulance. This version is more like Toveine. The actress does a great job, though.

I can see this happening a lot, character traits and characters being merged, you can't have all the named characters shown so I imagine the writers will have morphed several characters into 1 known one and had them take a broader place in the story, doing things others do in the books. 

 

[Scarloc99]

Watching back the fight scene to rescue Logain shows I think the impact COVID restrictions had on filming, 

 

Through the episode there are only so many characters on screen at the same time, and it is edited and shot in a way that makes it look like there are more people close together but they are actually spread out far more. 

 

The only mass of people are the attacking army storming towards the Aes Sedai/Warders but in that scene you dont actually see any of the key Aes Sedai (those with speaking roles) in the same shot as the mass of people. 

 

The fighting in the woods you see small groups of spread out people that never get within a few metres of each other and, if you stop and look carefully the people that get thrown about look very similar. 

 

I may be wrong but my guess is this was filmed as follows. 

 

The mass of army attacking the camp and getting killed by their own arrows, extras, they came in for a day of filming and none of the main cast (aes sedai, warders etc) was on set that day. This meant that if an extra tested +ve post this scene filming would not need to shut down as important actors isolated. 

You then bubble Warders and Aes Sedai making sure only those actors come into close proximity and touch each other. 

 

Finally the scene in the cave, the individual moments of characters being killed was all shot close up, with each shot you could then imagine extras lying on the floor looking like the bodies of others. Multiple takes of the same scene each time different "dead" characters being played by extras lets you film this while keeping the actors isolated. Or possibly you have a larger bubble, but, if this is the case then you really don't want any stuntman or extra getting anywhere near that bubble. 

 

Finally stuntpeople, I imagine you can't have loads of Stunt people on set (for the same reason) The directors of John Wick have discussed this in an interview they did for Honest Trailers. If you don't have enough stunt fighters to film a scene then you get your fighters to grow out their hair and get a nice beard going for day one of shooting. The, between takes, hair and makeup slowly cut away making 5 stunt fighters become 30 distinct people each with a different hairstle and look, add in things like Glasses, Helmets and changes of clothing and you can turn your 5 stuntguys into an unlimited army of bad guys for your hero to wade through. 

 

I imagine behind camera you had similar issues of having to limit the number of people on set, meaning fewer cameras, etc. 

 

I think season 1 is going to suffer because of COVID, I am hoping that things have eased enough in the next year or so so that when it comes to filming the big battle scenes we can actually get something more akin to battle of the bastards from GOT as opposed to having to shoot every large battle from the close up individual perspective. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sir_Charrid

[Scarloc99]

30 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Loved a lot about this episode. How they handled quite a lot of world building here has given me some more faith that they won't merge Machin Shin and Mashadar for example, as there are opportunities to simplify things for a TV audience and they haven't done it. I think it might be a bit frustrating at times from the POV of someone who doesn't know the books as they drop things in but don't fully explain them at times, but they really fleshed out a lot of important things for the series as a whole here:

 

- Aes Sedai/Warder bond (and the different types of relationships therein)

- The progression to madness with male channelers

- The danger of male channelers

- The internal politicking of the Aes Sedai (not fully fleshed out but enough here to show that the Aes Sedai aren't some unified force - I also enjoyed the comment that the Amyrlin Seat nearly came to get Moiraine and Lan herself, a nice nod to their ploy in the books as well). 

- Mat's sickness, the dagger & the Fade

- Lan & Nynaeve, Manetheren and Malkier

- The Way of the Leaf

 

I must say even as a huge book fan there were moments that I wasn't sure if they were going in a new direction with a character. I know there are a lot of complaints about the changes so far, but I genuinely for a moment thought that 1. Lan was dead & 2. Mat killed that family. My mind was racing for and then the hook came both times. Whatever criticisms we can all have about details and changes, I think it's testament to the show so far that moments like that are landing (maybe not for everyone lol). 

 

The show is still clunky at times with dialogue but I think this episode contained some of the best so far, and when they land the dialogue, *it really really lands*. Nynaeve and Lan's conversation, the Old Tongue and the translation honestly had me welling up. Ila's explanation to Perrin about her daughter and following the Way of the Leaf, it was an absolutely beautiful way to explain their philosophy and also get across once again the whole idea of the Wheel and lives being spun out and reborn. Aram's line about the leaf not resisting the wind, and sometimes it gets blown away from the tree. Logain's opening was brilliantly done as well (I think there is a very good chance that the shadows are Forsaken). 

 

I loved Nynaeve's explosion at the end. I have been sort of waiting and confused as to how they will reveal that she was a channeler. I thought they might show some improbable slice of luck when she was alone with the Trolloc for example. But this was a great reveal. 

 

My only complaint here is that the fight with the Fade should have lasted just a minute more. It was great but I wanted to see just a *little* more, and something with Rand trying to help but Thom pushing him away, or *something* extra. 

 

I also have 2 small questions, I can't quite remember from the books but: 

1. Perrin notes that some of the Tinkers look pretty rough/scarred. Ila explains that some of them were hired killers and gave it up? I had thought that anyone who committed violence was "lost" to the Tuatha'an? Or is it only if they not only commit the violence, but do not renounce it? I can't remember. 

2. Nynaeve's explosion, while a great moment, didn't quite sit with me as none of the AS made any mention or comment about her ability to channel. I thought all channelers could sense other channelers (of the same gender)? 

In that moment the first thing the Aes Sedai needed to do was deal with the immediate threat, Logain, I imagine they will react to Nyn in the next episode. Also we don't know the Aes Sedai may well have known Nyn was a channeller, but, they also have experiance of dealing with those who don't know. I imagine going in with both feet telling them outright doesn't always end well. Having that block is something that needs to be approached with care to first understand the trigger and then overcome it. Morraine may well next episode tell Nyn, I knew the moment I met you, but I also knew you where not ready to be made aware. 

[notpropaganda73]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In that moment the first thing the Aes Sedai needed to do was deal with the immediate threat, Logain, I imagine they will react to Nyn in the next episode. Also we don't know the Aes Sedai may well have known Nyn was a channeller, but, they also have experiance of dealing with those who don't know. I imagine going in with both feet telling them outright doesn't always end well. Having that block is something that needs to be approached with care to first understand the trigger and then overcome it. Morraine may well next episode tell Nyn, I knew the moment I met you, but I also knew you where not ready to be made aware. 

 

Yes sorry, I didn't mean in the aftermath of her healing explosion, I meant generally through the show so far, there has not been any passing comment about her ability. Although thinking on it, Moiraine's chat with Egwene does hint that "listening to the wind" is the same thing as channeling the One Power. But I suppose I'll need to wait to see how they address it going forward - I was more just wondering if I was misremembering how people can sense other channelers from the books. 

[Maldoren]

Thom knew Owyn's personality before and after the change from channeling.

 

Mat reminds him of Owyn, which means that Owyn's channeling is naturally on his mind with regards to Mat.

 

Thom knows that Mat's personality has shifted.  He has seen it get worse personally, since they are not teleporting from scene to scene.  He would also know from Rand that this is abnormal behavior for Mat.  This is similar to what happened to Owyn.

 

Mat's horse has been acting skittish.  The dialogue about the horse's behavior is not simply based on the on-screen moment.  This is similar to what happened to Owyn.

 

Thom also knows that both the Dark One and the Aes Sedai are after Rand and Mat.  Even if neither of them have mentioned the Dragon, why would Aes Sedai and the Dark One both be interested in them if there was not something unique about at least one of them? And of the two, Rand is acting normal and Mat is behaving in a rather similar fashion to Owyn, who could channel.

 

There is more evidence for Thom that Mat might be a channeler than there is that Logain was listening to the Forsaken.

[Scarloc99]

34 minutes ago, Maldoren said:

Thom knew Owyn's personality before and after the change from channeling.

 

Mat reminds him of Owyn, which means that Owyn's channeling is naturally on his mind with regards to Mat.

 

Thom knows that Mat's personality has shifted.  He has seen it get worse personally, since they are not teleporting from scene to scene.  He would also know from Rand that this is abnormal behavior for Mat.  This is similar to what happened to Owyn.

 

Mat's horse has been acting skittish.  The dialogue about the horse's behavior is not simply based on the on-screen moment.  This is similar to what happened to Owyn.

 

Thom also knows that both the Dark One and the Aes Sedai are after Rand and Mat.  Even if neither of them have mentioned the Dragon, why would Aes Sedai and the Dark One both be interested in them if there was not something unique about at least one of them? And of the two, Rand is acting normal and Mat is behaving in a rather similar fashion to Owyn, who could channel.

 

There is more evidence for Thom that Mat might be a channeler than there is that Logain was listening to the Forsaken.

And what else matches up with all those observations, Thom is not going to instantly go, oh Matt took something from Shadar Logath, this is bad we must go to an Aes Sedai now. 

[RhienneAgain]

3 hours ago, dwn said:

Some thoughts in no particular order:

 

I continue to like the depictions of madness.

 

Decent depiction of Aes Sedai and Warders. My only complaint is the colour-coded dresses are a bit much.

 

The shawls would have been nicer.

 

Not too keen on Liandrin. In the books she has a strong mix of sinister and petulance. This version is more like Toveine. The actress does a great job, though.

 

Interesting use of Kerene. I had to crack open New Spring to see if she was who I thought she was. Likely just a re-use of a cool name and/or easter egg for the fans. Too bad she died--I really liked the character.

 

"That woman is a snake." *snerk*

 

All of Lan and Nynaeve's interactions were well done. Arguably better build up than in TEotW.

 

I do not like the design of the great serpent rings.

 

I'm fine with Nynaeve's healing circle. Sure it's a bit silly, but no more so than half a dozen other things. She got angry, healed Lan without really knowing what she was doing, and had such lousy aim she hit everyone else in the room.

 

I don't think Logain saw Nynaeve channelling--as others have mentioned, I think it's meant to imply she's also ta'veren. It goes with the whodunnit nature of the TV story, and with the DF including her in who the DO is after. There's been occasional speculation for years (well, decades) that Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve were all ta'veran, just not as strong as Rand, Mat and Perrin.

 

The Fade scene was very well done.

 

Moiraine's puppy was weird.

 

Regarding shielding: per the books they're supposed to have six sisters holding shields on any man who can channel--since no one would be strong enough to break through that man shields. And they're not supposed to be linked since one sister melding the flows could be a weak point.

 

Tinkers are still annoying, but I like how Perrin's situation ties in so well here.

 

Alas, poor Else. Your little sister was cooler than you.

 

Agreed on Moiraine's puppy. What was that about!?

 

I agree Liandrin isn't quite how I see her from the books. You've nailed it when you say they've missed her petulance completely. I think they've instead aimed to have her character in the show portray a 'generic' red Aes Sedai, which works ok for me.

[Dizzle]

This show is absolutely horrendous and they’ve completely butchered the material. All the fantastic little details (like the relationship between Rand and Tam or amount of Aes Sedai it takes to make a shield and hold it) that make the books so unique and tie the events so well especially towards the end are just stripped and discarded as unimportant, when in fact they are absolutely critical to the story. There’s so much wrong with this show in regards to the books it’s beyond painful to watch. Don’t get me started on the severe lack of character development at the cost of a fast paced edgy show that leaves you not caring about any of the characters at all. I feel sorry for those that haven’t read the books attempting to watch this, it’s incoherent and there’s such little time spent on any character that you’d barely know any of their names. Surely I can’t be the only one that is so disappointed in this “adaptation”. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Dizzle

[Maximillion]

26 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

This show is absolutely horrendous and they’ve completely butchered the material. All the fantastic little details (like the relationship between Rand and Tam or amount of Aes Sedai it takes to make a shield and hold it) that make the books so unique and tie the events so well especially towards the end are just stripped and discarded as unimportant, when in fact they are absolutely critical to the story. There’s so much wrong with this show in regards to the books it’s beyond painful to watch. Don’t get me started on the severe lack of character development at the cost of a fast paced edgy show that leaves you not caring about any of the characters at all. I feel sorry for those that haven’t read the books attempting to watch this, it’s incoherent and there’s such little time spent on any character that you’d barely know any of their names. Surely I can’t be the only one that is so disappointed in this “adaptation”. 

 

I agree.

What I think they have done is go for theatrical short cuts.  I see a lot of excess in the writing - like they are going for 'big moments' to titillate the audience and in doing so have forgot or decided to ignore the fundamentals of the story.  I guess they hoped people wouldn't care, but they've misjudged the audience.

An example is the ending of the 4th episode.

The entire episode looks like it was built around the need to have Nynaeve perform some massively heroic act and they jumped the shark (as one reviewer said) with it.  I mean EVERYONE has to be on the brink of death so  Nynaeve can save EVERYONE and then Logain has to marvel at her magnificence and almost kneel to her power. To do that you just have to completely disregard RJ's story and write something else.

There was never any need for this really strange story line to be inserted.  

It's just wasted screen time for the sole purpose of casting Nynaeve as a Xena type character to latch on to 'girl power' as a theme.  RJ's story be damned.

That's really all this show is about now - Nynaeve and some weird 'who is the dragon' mystery.  The misdirection with the 'who is the DR; stuff has reached levels of stupidity I was not expecting.  They even named the episode The Dragon Reborn and concluded it making the audience believe it was Nynaeve.  Shockingly lazy and formulaic TV.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Maximillion

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Dizzle said:

This show is absolutely horrendous and they’ve completely butchered the material. All the fantastic little details (like the relationship between Rand and Tam or amount of Aes Sedai it takes to make a shield and hold it) that make the books so unique and tie the events so well especially towards the end are just stripped and discarded as unimportant, when in fact they are absolutely critical to the story. There’s so much wrong with this show in regards to the books it’s beyond painful to watch. Don’t get me started on the severe lack of character development at the cost of a fast paced edgy show that leaves you not caring about any of the characters at all. I feel sorry for those that haven’t read the books attempting to watch this, it’s incoherent and there’s such little time spent on any character that you’d barely know any of their names. Surely I can’t be the only one that is so disappointed in this “adaptation”. 

While overall I agree with your sentiments, a couple thoughts on your specific points:

• Rand/Tam relationship - this could still be coming (as an explanation for Rand's surliness with Moiraine)
• Fast-paced in some areas and slow in others - Like the Aes Sedai/Warder camp.  That dragged compared to the 'main' characters.
• It might be a better show for those that haven't read the books.  At least I've seen that several times.

[notpropaganda73]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

 

I agree.

What I think they have done is go for theatrical short cuts.  I see a lot of excess in the writing - like they are going for 'big moments' to titillate the audience and in doing so have forgot or decided to ignore the fundamentals of the story.  I guess they hoped people wouldn't care, but they've misjudged the audience.

An example is the ending of the 4th episode.

The entire episode looks like it was built around the need to have Nynaeve perform some massively heroic act and they jumped the shark (as one reviewer said) with it.  I mean EVERYONE has to be on the brink of death so  Nynaeve can save EVERYONE and then Logain has to marvel at her magnificence and almost kneel to her power. To do that you just have to completely disregard RJ's story and write something else.

There was never any need for this really strange story line to be inserted.  

It's just wasted screen time for the sole purpose of casting Nynaeve as a Xena type character to latch on to 'girl power' as a theme.  RJ's story be damned.

That's really all this show is about now - Nynaeve and some weird 'who is the dragon' mystery.  The misdirection with the 'who is the DR; stuff has reached levels of stupidity I was not expecting.  They even named the episode The Dragon Reborn and concluded it making the audience believe it was Nynaeve.  Shockingly lazy and formulaic TV.

 

Needless to say at this stage that I disagree with nearly everything you post, but I really do take issue with some of your throwaway hyperbolic statements. 

 

The episode is named The Dragon Reborn and the main storyline isn't Nynaeve, it's Logain. The whole episode is building out a lot of the world of Wheel of Time, the world that we all take for granted as book readers. It is showing us the politicking between Aes Sedai Ajahs, the Aes Sedai/Warder bond, the dangers of male channeling, the implications of Logain being such a powerful channeler, the madness of male channeling. It's laying the groundwork for themes that the entire series hinges upon. 

 

The episode is named TDR because it's exploring what it may look like when the Dragon *is* reborn. Maybe it is Logain, Liandrin doesn't know that, nor would she care. None of the AS know for sure that he isn't, there is even a whole scene where Alana talks about the possibility that he is the DR. The show is teasing out how things will look when the TDR is actually declared, it won't be clean sailing, this isn't an easy Messiah story where everyone will be happy that the saviour has arrived. 

 

You take issue with Nynaeve performing a feat of Healing she absolutely has the ability to do from the books that you like to claim are being disregarded at every turn with this adaptation. How the scene was handled and executed is up for debate, I don't think it was perfect, but my issues with the scene aren't to do with any show of "girl power" (sidenote: wtf?). The show has leaned in to the mystery of the Dragon and obviously Nynaeve is another candidate, just because we know who the Dragon really is doesn't mean these feints and teases aren't effective for people new to the series. 

 

Whether they were successful with what they are trying to do in the episode is subjective, yes, but I don't think a single part of your post is fair criticism to be honest. You say things like "completely disregard RJs story" and "RJs story be damned" as if they are objective fact and they are simply not true. You can find the show bad, disappointing, outright terrible - but you can't say it is not the Wheel of Time story because it clearly is at this point. 

[Maximillion]

17 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

While overall I agree with your sentiments, a couple thoughts on your specific points:

• Rand/Tam relationship - this could still be coming (as an explanation for Rand's surliness with Moiraine)
• Fast-paced in some areas and slow in others - Like the Aes Sedai/Warder camp.  That dragged compared to the 'main' characters.
• It might be a better show for those that haven't read the books.  At least I've seen that several times.

 

That is what makes no sense to me. We've heard how so much has to be cut from the books and that has resulted in some very rushed sequences, like leaving TTR - or some areas just cut, like Thom not being at TTR.  But then we get these extended scenes that don't seem to add anything like the flashback to Nynaeve and the Trolloc or the whole Logain sequence in the camp where Nynaeve saves everyone.

It seems they have plenty of time, but have chosen to use it on one character.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Dizzle said:

This show is absolutely horrendous and they’ve completely butchered the material. All the fantastic little details (like the relationship between Rand and Tam or amount of Aes Sedai it takes to make a shield and hold it) that make the books so unique and tie the events so well especially towards the end are just stripped and discarded as unimportant, when in fact they are absolutely critical to the story. There’s so much wrong with this show in regards to the books it’s beyond painful to watch. Don’t get me started on the severe lack of character development at the cost of a fast paced edgy show that leaves you not caring about any of the characters at all. I feel sorry for those that haven’t read the books attempting to watch this, it’s incoherent and there’s such little time spent on any character that you’d barely know any of their names. Surely I can’t be the only one that is so disappointed in this “adaptation”. 

Rafe on being asked why he ignored the Fever Dream stated that he hadn't, I have a feeling this will be a flashback, otherwise it just makes it obvious in episode 1 he is the dragon reborn because he is the odd one out. 

Number of Aes Sedai it takes to make a shield, this is your point of contention? I don't  really care if it is less, from a story writing casting perspective it makes it easier to shield, but also, 2 aes sedai are not successfully shielding, he is allowing them to think they are until his forces arrive and he can escape. They say multiple times they should have more. 

 

lack of character development, that will be coming, Rafe has needed to rush through the first half of the EOTW in order to get to where the story really starts. Not being funny but EOTW and the Great Hunt are not the interesting books of WOT, as Rober Jordan himself stated they are lifted largely from the fellowship and other fantasy tropes to be a gentle introduction before he then takes the story in it's own direction. Now in a TV show, in order to keep the many many viewers coming from GOT who don't like the standard fantasy setting, the show runners need to get to the Unique stuff as quickly as possible. Plus do not blame the writers and directors for sticking to rules that Amazon laid down. Modern TV viewing habits mean series are now 8 episodes long, each episode is an hour in length and every episode has to have stuff happening and end on a cliffhanger because it has to be Bingeable TV. If it doesn't do this, it doesn't get viewed and it doesn't get renewed. As much as we all love WOT it is not the biggest fantasy series in the world, and as a result the fan base alone will not repay Amazons investment in the series. 

 

My initial thoughts where much like yours but, I have come to accept that, to deliver the true fan version of the WOT would require 200+ hours of TV time, probably closer to 250, and be an awfully slow, exposition and dialogue heavy TV show. What the Showrunners have done is probably the best that anyone could have done, and I am ok with this, it is a fun show, it has a lot going for it and, and I seem to have to keep saying this, It was made at the height of COVID. So lets maybe wait and see what the vision is for it by the end before we sit here and berate it when it has only just got going.

 

Not being funny if I had done that with the book I would have stopped EOTW halfway through book one complaining that it was a rip off of fellowship Lan is Arafgorn, Morraine is Gandalf and the Hobbits are the 3 boys, Egwene and Nyn. 

I would have compared Shadar Logath to the mines of Moria, taren ferry to the Ford of Bruinen and I would have put the book down and stopped. But I didn't I stuck with it and trusted the author had a more complex story to tell.

[DojoToad]

• I always rushed through Tinker scenes in the books - I did read them all, but they were never my thing.  Too much time in the episode for me.  The conversations between Perrin and Ila was key for Perrin's development.  Just as I think the conversations between Egwene and Aram were probably key for Aram - but not Egwene.  Well written but I could take or leave the Tinkers as a whole.
• Way too much time spent in the Warder/Aes Sedai camp - this time could have been better used in Emond's Field developing the main characters.  Exception being Lan and Nynaeve's interaction - well done.

[DojoToad]

6 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

That is what makes no sense to me. We've heard how so much has to be cut from the books and that has resulted in some very rushed sequences, like leaving TTR - or some areas just cut, like Thom not being at TTR.  But then we get these extended scenes that don't seem to add anything like the flashback to Nynaeve and the Trolloc or the whole Logain sequence in the camp where Nynaeve saves everyone.

It seems they have plenty of time, but have chosen to use it on one character.

They are definitely not spending time where I would have.  But long-term whether it pays off will have to be determined by the rest of you after episode 5 as further input from me will no longer be relevant.

[Maximillion]

21 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Needless to say at this stage that I disagree with nearly everything you post, but I really do take issue with some of your throwaway hyperbolic statements. 

 

The episode is named The Dragon Reborn and the main storyline isn't Nynaeve, it's Logain. The whole episode is building out a lot of the world of Wheel of Time, the world that we all take for granted as book readers. It is showing us the politicking between Aes Sedai Ajahs, the Aes Sedai/Warder bond, the dangers of male channeling, the implications of Logain being such a powerful channeler, the madness of male channeling. It's laying the groundwork for themes that the entire series hinges upon. 

 

The episode is named TDR because it's exploring what it may look like when the Dragon *is* reborn. Maybe it is Logain, Liandrin doesn't know that, nor would she care. None of the AS know for sure that he isn't, there is even a whole scene where Alana talks about the possibility that he is the DR. The show is teasing out how things will look when the TDR is actually declared, it won't be clean sailing, this isn't an easy Messiah story where everyone will be happy that the saviour has arrived. 

 

You take issue with Nynaeve performing a feat of Healing she absolutely has the ability to do from the books that you like to claim are being disregarded at every turn with this adaptation. How the scene was handled and executed is up for debate, I don't think it was perfect, but my issues with the scene aren't to do with any show of "girl power" (sidenote: wtf?). The show has leaned in to the mystery of the Dragon and obviously Nynaeve is another candidate, just because we know who the Dragon really is doesn't mean these feints and teases aren't effective for people new to the series. 

 

Whether they were successful with what they are trying to do in the episode is subjective, yes, but I don't think a single part of your post is fair criticism to be honest. You say things like "completely disregard RJs story" and "RJs story be damned" as if they are objective fact and they are simply not true. You can find the show bad, disappointing, outright terrible - but you can't say it is not the Wheel of Time story because it clearly is at this point. 

 

It clearly isn't the WoT at this point - beyond the names of the characters and places.

I don't see the resemblance you do.

My point remains - they called the episode the DR and ended it letting the audience believe it was Nynaeve.

The whole to and fro on who is the DR is cheap.

As for 'girl power' that is exactly what they have gone for with Nynaeve and in truth it is paying dividends on social media.  This seems to me to be a very purposeful play by the writers - something cheap to tap into. Hashtag Badass... that is what people seem to care about, not the character development across the board.  That Nynaeve BECOMES a powerful Aes Sedai in the book is neither here nor there.  Doing what she did at this stage has so many implications - like I said on another thread ... how does that now play into the Eye of the World episode?   Her 'don't make me angry' wielding of the OP that Logain is in total awe of?  How is that going to be used before the story has really developed?  It was not until later - in TGH - that she did something even remotely like it and then that was way less,,, she pinned the AS to a wall, but at the same time was rendered helpless.

It was a completely unnecessary scene in E4 and way over the top - literally everyone is about to die, then saved by the hero  That's the kind of writing a child would come up with or be the storyline in a Superman movie (sorry , my bad, Superwoman movie)

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Maximillion