If You Could Balefire Three Storylines…..

[Tim]

I think a big theme in the books is the interaction between individuals and institutions (in the broadest sense of that word), and how they can redeem and corrupt one another. See Sevanna (with help) gradually poisoning the entire concept of ji'e'toh amongst the Shaido even while pretending to preserve it vis a vis Rand, versus Galad and Egwene acting as restorative forces vis a vis the Whitecloaks and the White Tower respectively. The Asha'man storyline reflects both dynamics, while each of Gawyn's, Rand's and (to some extent) Perrin's storylines also pick up these themes at a personal/psychological level.

 

See also Avienda's flash-forward to the Aiel's possible future and the resulting problem of how to avoid stagnation. And of course the warning example of Aridol/Shadar Logoth hangs over the book as a kind of structuring mythology perhaps ultimately more important to the book's themes than the Dark One and his followers per se.

 

However, these duelling dynamics of corruption/stagnation and restoration are distorted somewhat by the progression of the books and in particular the slog, with the corruption/stagnation themes dominating from (roughly) Fires of Heaven through to (at least) Crossroads of Twilight, and the restoration arcs only really kicking in with the Sanderson books.

When I think about the storylines that feel most padded and in need of cutting - especially in the midst of the slog - it's these drawn-out stories of decline, sort of mini-Shadar Logoth storylines: amongst the shaido, amongst the various factions of the white tower diaspora, amongst the younglings etc. Thematically, I think these are important stories to tell, and I wouldn't be in favour of the TV show jettisoning all or most of them. But I think they could be told in a much tighter fashion than Jordan managed: by way of example, once the Shaido Wise Ones murder one of their own, does it really matter how many more permanent-gai'shain Sevanna acquires, or how many more necklaces she and the other wise ones wear or how many more knots on their blouses they undo? 

 

At a high level, post-Dumai's Wells, it would make sense for this overarching stagnation arc to dominate for one season only. Increasingly I think much of A Crown of Swords through Crossroads of Twilight could be compressed into one season.

 

As Elder Haman notes above there's really only a few key events that need to carry across from these books. Ending that season with the cleansing of the taint (which is contemporaneous with much of Crossroads anyway) would make a lot of sense thematically: a kind of harbinger of a show-wide turn towards a restoration arc even though Rand's own stagnation still needs to play out. 

On Mat/Tuon, it wouldn't take much for the show to reframe Tuon as a more obviously reforming leader than she is in the books.

[JaimAybara]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:08 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I think this oversimplifies. Galad is searching for purpose when he joins the Whitecloaks and he is motivated to do so because of the purity of their purpose. Basically, he doesn't understand how rotten they are, believing that they have a "few bad apples". Even before he becomes LCC, he influences the men under his command to actually do the right thing.

I get more of a religious zealotry vibe from the Children of the Light, more akin to the Spanish Inquisition. Particularly since they have “Questioners”. Pedron Niall was more misguided regarding prophecy though and Galad is a very noble man too, so I think just like the Asha’man has evil people, and the tower, and the Children, and the Aiel, it’s a balance.  The Children are just the most recognizable historically with our actual world and what we can compare them to. The Salem witch trials and the Spanish Inquisition come to mind for me. 

[Elder_Haman]

11 hours ago, JaimAybara said:

I get more of a religious zealotry vibe from the Children of the Light, more akin to the Spanish Inquisition. Particularly since they have “Questioners”. Pedron Niall was more misguided regarding prophecy though and Galad is a very noble man too, so I think just like the Asha’man has evil people, and the tower, and the Children, and the Aiel, it’s a balance.  The Children are just the most recognizable historically with our actual world and what we can compare them to. The Salem witch trials and the Spanish Inquisition come to mind for me. 

More Spanish Inquisition than Salem. Salem is more properly understood as an example of mass hysteria, while the Inquisition was conceived by religious zealots.

 

There is no question that the Children are zealots, but like the Inquisition their philosophy derives from source material that has a pure and noble purpose. Galad believes in that purpose and doesn't fully understand how divorced from the original purpose the Children have become.

[WhiteVeils]

Random thoughts for this thread:

1) Mat and Tylin:  Keep what happens as depicted, but make clear that Mat is awkward and uncomfortable and trying to handle it and trying to make a joke of it. But when he gets out and tells Elayne and Nynaeve, have Nynaeve get FURIOUS at Tylin for it and just make absolutely clear to Mat and the audience that what happened to Mat was wrong and should never have happened.  Bad things can happen to our favorite characters...it's more that we need to call them out as bad.  Some kharmic punishment for Tylin would also be nice.

2) Removing Gawyn and just making it Galad (or keeping it Gawyn but having it be Galad's plotline without Elayne's animosity to Galad but making her animosity to the Whitecloaks in general) is great. It can be after Dumai's wells, but honestly Gawyn doesn't do that much there.  All you need really is a bit more time for Egwene to flirt with Gawyn/Galad, to deepen their relationship, and that can happen at the Tower, even shortly before the Tower splits.

3) Love the idea of switching Faile's capture from the Shaido to Masema.  Also, I can see removing Faile and substituting another character for her...someone that Perrin already has a romantic relationship with in Emond's Field, but maybe he leaves behind to protect who then comes after him. (Like Layla Aybara)  If it's established as pre-existing, then that romance doesn't need to be slowly built up so much, and Perrin's devotion can be explained as can the things he does out of that devotion, which drives a large part of his plot.
 

[DojoToad]

14 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Random thoughts for this thread:

1) Mat and Tylin:  Keep what happens as depicted, but make clear that Mat is awkward and uncomfortable and trying to handle it and trying to make a joke of it. But when he gets out and tells Elayne and Nynaeve, have Nynaeve get FURIOUS at Tylin for it and just make absolutely clear to Mat and the audience that what happened to Mat was wrong and should never have happened.  Bad things can happen to our favorite characters...it's more that we need to call them out as bad.  Some kharmic punishment for Tylin would also be nice.  
 

Can't get much worse than what happened in the books, or were you thinking of letting her off easy?

Edited October 6, 2021 by DojoToad

[WhiteVeils]

It's been a long time and I'm not to that part of my reread <blush> So I can't remember what happened to Tylin.  The camera can linger lovingly on it more than it would otherwise so we feel the kharmic justice done upon her for doing that to Mat?

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

It's been a long time and I'm not to that part of my reread <blush> So I can't remember what happened to Tylin.  The camera can linger lovingly on it more than it would otherwise so we feel the kharmic justice done upon her for doing that to Mat?

Yikes!  I don't think the camera needs to linger on her final disposition...

[DaddyFinn]

59 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

It's been a long time and I'm not to that part of my reread <blush> So I can't remember what happened to Tylin.  The camera can linger lovingly on it more than it would otherwise so we feel the kharmic justice done upon her for doing that to Mat?

Let's just say she was eaten out

[WhiteVeils]

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