Ruby Hilted Dagger

[Elder_Haman]

Well, we have our new content from WOTonPrime! The Ruby hilted dagger is released.

This is clearly footage lifted directly from the show. My impression is that this is a clip from a bonafide trailer.

 

What do y'all think?

[Thrasymachus]

I don't think it's pulled from a trailer.  I think it's a standalone mini-teaser.  It looks like clips from three different scenes, and some Mat lines probably pulled from somewhere else entirely as well.

 

I am puzzled by the implied change here, though.  It seems as though they're having Mat accept the dagger as part of some sort of bargain.  In the books, Mat takes the dagger out of reflex, it's not given to him.  And while it may not really matter in terms of the dagger's effects, I think it makes a difference to Mat's character.  

 

Mat snatching up the dagger to protect himself from Mordeth is an act of happenstance and coincidence.  The dagger happened to be there close to hand for him to grab; he wasn't manipulated into doing it, though it ultimately ended up serving Mordeth's immediate purposes of being released from Shadar Logoth.  In grabbing it and keeping it, in spite of Moiraine's warnings, Mat's unpredictability and disdain for authority are demonstrated to the audience.  But the circumstantial nature of its acquisition, and the sort of immature childishness with which he justifies keeping it, preserve the underlying innocence of his character.  Yes, he made a mistake, but that mistake was ultimately a rather innocent one.

 

By having Mat receive the dagger as part of a bargain, Mordeth succeeds in manipulating him, where in the original story he does not, at least not in the way he intends.  That turns Mat from someone unpredictable and difficult to lead into someone gullible and manipulable.  And insofar as Mordeth is this shady character they find lurking in what's supposed to be a dead and haunted city, it makes Mat a somewhat shady character too, willing to bargain with such a fellow and retain his "payment," even after the dire warnings Moiraine specifically gives about being given things by this entity.  This is much less a mistake than an intentional act, and it is far from an innocent one.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Thrasymachus

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I am puzzled by the implied change here, though.  It seems as though they're having Mat accept the dagger as part of some sort of bargain.  In the books, Mat takes the dagger out of reflex, it's not given to him.  And while it may not really matter in terms of the dagger's effects, I think it makes a difference to Mat's character.  

There is definitely a change implied. 

What it says to me is that they are going to lean into Mat's nature as a horse trader - always looking for a deal. Always thinking that he is more clever than the people he bargains with. 

 

If I had to guess, I would say he makes a bargain thinking that he is cleverly working around Moiraine's warnings without realizing that all Mordeth is after is the dagger. It preserves Mat's "unpredictability and disdain for authority". What is lost in innocence is gained in advancement of other character traits that are important to Mat's character and go largely undeveloped until TDR and after.

 

10 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I don't think it's pulled from a trailer.  I think it's a standalone mini-teaser.  It looks like clips from three different scenes, and some Mat lines probably pulled from somewhere else entirely as well.

In what way would the clip differ if it was pulled directly from a trailer (which, by definition is clips of different scenes mashed together cut with dialogue)? You're drawing distinctions without a difference.

[Borderlander]

Sounds to me like the 'let's make a deal' audio is pulled from another scene. He might say it while acquiring the dagger, or speaking to Mordeth, but for this teaser, I think they spliced it in just to have a cool sount bite. It's such an iconic-sounding line, they're not likely to have it cut over a shot where you can't even see Mat's face. And if that's the case, we have no idea why he says it or to whom. He might be talking to himself, or it might not even be from Shadar Logoth. Conclusion: too soon to say.

[Thrasymachus]

My hope is that the audio's from a bit earlier than the interior shot of Shadar Logoth or the scene where Mat opens the dagger's case.  From the street level, where the boys encounter Mordeth and he tries to negotiate them into helping him bring stuff outside the city.  I'd rather the dagger's case be opened as part of their discovery of the treasure room, so that Mat can take the dagger spontaneously.  I hope that the implication here, that Mat is given the dagger as some part of bargain, is a bit of a misdirection.

 

And I would hope that Rafe takes Sanderson's advice, and experiences to heart.  Mat's hard to write and hard to get right.  Try to change or caricature-ize him, and you'll get it wrong.  And Mat's not some kind of wheeler-dealer master trader.  He's a gambler and a rogue-with-a-heart-of-gold, who eventually becomes an unbeatable tactician and military strategist.  He knows horses because his dad was a horse-dealer.  He'd rather gamble than trade, and even when forced to bargain, he ultimately only cares about getting what he wants/needs for a price he can pay, not getting the very best deal he can.

[Elder_Haman]

I didn't take it as Mat being given the dagger as part of a bargain. I took at Mat making a deal to get the dagger. In my mind, Mat meets Mordeth on the streets posing as a treasure hunter, promising that there's more - even showing off some of it. He tells Mat that he wants this one item in particular, but he can't get it because [insert plausible sounding reason]. Mat strikes a deal, I'll go retrieve your dagger for x amount of treasure.

 

That's a very Mat thing to do. Do an easy chore, make a quick profit. 

 

It also serves as clever foreshadowing for the Finn.

[mistborn82]

I hope they don't change it and that's from two different scenes because having Mat accept the dagger changes things too much.

[Thrasymachus]

Mordeth doesn't care about the dagger until after it leaves Shadar Logoth.  It could have been anything, a cup, a ring, a necklace, as far as he's concerned.  He just needs someone to agree to take something outside the walls.  That Mat never agrees to do that, that he snatches the dagger up in self-defense as a matter of chance, that the agreement which actually frees Mordeth is made with Fain, is significant.  The dagger isn't special until after Mat leaves Shadar Logoth with it.  And even then, it is only special insofar as it is an artifact of Shadar Logoth, imbued with the same evil that killed that city.  It could have been a cup, or a necklace or a pile of gold.  And if it's being offered as payment, then why not a pile of gold, or a necklace or some other shiny bauble?  Changing things so that Mat makes a deal to get the dagger changes Mat and it changes the significance of the dagger.  And it's not necessary and risks changing too much for a character that's already risky to adapt well.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Mordeth doesn't care about the dagger until after it leaves Shadar Logoth. 

This is true in the books. Doesn't have to be the case for the show.

[Thrasymachus]

Nothing has to stay the same for the show if the showrunners don't want it to.  But there's no good reason to make that kind of change if you're trying to stay true to who those characters are in their core.  Sure, maybe they're changing Mat.  But that doesn't change the fact that changing Mat like that is a bad idea.  Just ask Sanderson.

 

[Elder_Haman]

18 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Nothing has to stay the same for the show if the showrunners don't want it to.  But there's no good reason to make that kind of change if you're trying to stay true to who those characters are in their core.  Sure, maybe they're changing Mat.  But that doesn't change the fact that changing Mat like that is a bad idea.  Just ask Sanderson.

 

In what way does it change Mat's character for Mordeth to convince him to retrieve the dagger? In the books, Mordeth convinces Mat, Rand and Perrin to help him retrieve 'treasure'. All three boys agree to help until Mordeth spazzes out because he learns that there's an Aes Sedai in the city.

 

It's not a huge change to the plot for Mordeth to convince Mat to get one specific thing. Mordeth can still freak out when he learns about others being in the city. Mat can still use the dagger to defend himself and still justify keeping it in the same exact way. 

 

It's not that big a change to Mat's character - he's still motivated by greed. He's still ignoring Moiraine's warnings. He still ends up using the dagger to protect himself. The idea that this (hypothetical) change breaks his character is silly, IMO.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[king of nowhere]

speaking of mat's character, he had very little characterization in the first two books, and most of it negative. he was the irresponsible guy that got everyone in trouble, and he got cursed with the dagger. he spends the first half of the first book making troubles, the second half being corrupted (which also makes trouble) and the second book being sick. he starts shining from book 3.

I would not be surprised if the show changed stuff to make him more symphatetic from the beginning

[mistborn82]

If that's real and not trailer games, it changes Mat if he gives Mordeth the dagger because that would indicate he made a bargain with Mordeth, a big no no. That might mean Mat will have some darkness in him throughout the series. Though, I think the fact that Fain is in the series, indicates it's trailer games because Fain's only interesting because of the merging.

[Elder_Haman]

46 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

If that's real and not trailer games, it changes Mat if he gives Mordeth the dagger because that would indicate he made a bargain with Mordeth, a big no no. That might mean Mat will have some darkness in him throughout the series. Though, I think the fact that Fain is in the series, indicates it's trailer games because Fain's only interesting because of the merging.

Well it is "trailer games" to some extent. We don't see Mat talking and there's no one else present in any of the shots.

 

But remember, even in the books the kids do speak with Mordeth and "bargain" with him. He is able to convince them to come with him to find treasure. What I'm suggesting is that altering that encounter in a manner that has Mat retrieve the dagger doesn't break Mat's character in any meaningful way whatsoever.

[Thrasymachus]

But it's also a completely unnecessary change, and one which changes the significance of the dagger and the nature of the "bargain" made with Mordeth.  There's no reason for Mordeth to care about the dagger except that it's an artifact of Shadar Logoth which made its way outside that city (thanks to Mat's impulsiveness and sheer coincidence).  There is no reason to elevate the dagger's significance beyond that.  It doesn't add anything to the mythos of Shadar Logoth or Mordeth.  Mordeth doesn't even care if any of the "treasure" makes it outside the city, he just wants someone to accompany him there, so he can take them over and finally be free of the place.  The treasure, dagger included, is merely bait for that trap. 

 

And it doesn't add anything to Mat's character that he renegs on the deal to keep the dagger for himself.  In fact, it substantially harms Mat's character by turning a largely innocent act of sheer happenstance into a much more sinister one of double-dealing and theft.

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

But it's also a completely unnecessary change, and one which changes the significance of the dagger and the nature of the "bargain" made with Mordeth.  There's no reason for Mordeth to care about the dagger except that it's an artifact of Shadar Logoth which made its way outside that city (thanks to Mat's impulsiveness and sheer coincidence).  There is no reason to elevate the dagger's significance beyond that. 

But there is. It makes the narrative more clear and require less exposition. And it does away with the difficult to swallow decision of following a creepy stranger into his 'treasure room'. 

 

14 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

The treasure, dagger included, is merely bait for that trap. 

This doesn't change that.

 

15 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

And it doesn't add anything to Mat's character that he renegs on the deal to keep the dagger for himself.  

Mat doesn't reneg on the deal. Mordeth does. He attacks and Mat uses the dagger to defend himself. It's almost identical to the books - the only difference is that instead of Mordeth bringing the boys to the treasure, in this the boys bring the treasure to Mordeth.

[Thrasymachus]

You're missing the point that the treasure is not what's important to Mordeth.  Not a single bit of it.  He needs someone to accompany him to the outside of the city, and the treasure is just a ploy to get the boys to do that.  He doesn't need the dagger, and he never comes to need the dagger.  The dagger isn't responsible for his transformation into Shaisam, nor is it what allows him such control over fades and Trollocs.  It's Mordeth's own powers combined with whatever the Dark One did to him that do that.  At best, it's a particularly handy tool for him that he has an attachment to because of their common origins, and which is particularly deadly for him to wield because of the link between their corruptive powers.  Your idea of having Mordeth need the dagger specifically and from the very beginning is what muddles the narrative.  Why does he need the dagger?  What's special about it that he would specifically request Mat to get it for him? 

 

In fact, there's nothing special about the dagger except that Mat makes it special, by sheer chance, by taking it from Shadar Logoth.  Mordeth-Fain would still have happened without Mat having taken it, and would still be just as much a threat.  But for Mat to be responsible for making it special, and for him to remain the same, core Mat, his act of making it special needs to stay the largely innocent act it is in the books.  He grabs it up in surprise to defend himself when Mordeth freaks out on them.  He keeps it because it's a weapon and this Shadar Logoth place is beyond creepy, and he isn't sure how much he trusts Moiraine's warnings yet anyway.  And their escape was chaotic, even if he wanted to heed her warnings before they left, he likely didn't have the time or chance to think of it.  By the time they're well away, its hooks are in him.  Making Mat no longer responsible for making the dagger special makes him into a gullible fool for doing what the obvious bad guy wanted to begin with: taking the dagger out of the city.  And making Mat's act which puts the dagger into play no longer an innocent act of sheer chance, but one of deliberate theft, even if in response to an apparent betrayal by Mordeth, makes Mat a liar and a thief.  And that's a core thing about Mat being broken.  Mat keeps his word, no matter what, even when others don't or wouldn't.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

You're missing the point that the treasure is not what's important to Mordeth.  Not a single bit of it.  He needs someone to accompany him to the outside of the city, and the treasure is just a ploy to get the boys to do that.  He doesn't need the dagger, and he never comes to need the dagger.  The dagger isn't responsible for his transformation into Shaisam, nor is it what allows him such control over fades and Trollocs.  It's Mordeth's own powers combined with whatever the Dark One did to him that do that.  At best, it's a particularly handy tool for him that he has an attachment to because of their common origins, and which is particularly deadly for him to wield because of the link between their corruptive powers.  Your idea of having Mordeth need the dagger specifically and from the very beginning is what muddles the narrative.  Why does he need the dagger?  What's special about it that he would specifically request Mat to get it for him? 

 

In fact, there's nothing special about the dagger except that Mat makes it special, by sheer chance, by taking it from Shadar Logoth.  Mordeth-Fain would still have happened without Mat having taken it, and would still be just as much a threat.  But for Mat to be responsible for making it special, and for him to remain the same, core Mat, his act of making it special needs to stay the largely innocent act it is in the books.  He grabs it up in surprise to defend himself when Mordeth freaks out on them.  He keeps it because it's a weapon and this Shadar Logoth place is beyond creepy, and he isn't sure how much he trusts Moiraine's warnings yet anyway.  And their escape was chaotic, even if he wanted to heed her warnings before they left, he likely didn't have the time or chance to think of it.  By the time they're well away, its hooks are in him.  Making Mat no longer responsible for making the dagger special makes him into a gullible fool for doing what the obvious bad guy wanted to begin with: taking the dagger out of the city.  And making Mat's act which puts the dagger into play no longer an innocent act of sheer chance, but one of deliberate theft, even if in response to an apparent betrayal by Mordeth, makes Mat a liar and a thief.  And that's a core thing about Mat being broken.  Mat keeps his word, no matter what, even when others don't or wouldn't.

Yeah. This isn’t convincing to me at all. Making the dagger important is not much of a change considering how central it becomes to the plot. 
 

I follow the argument. It’s just doesn’t land. 

[Thrasymachus]

It doesn't become central to the plot.  It's only an important part of Mat's plot because of what it does to his memory, and after that, it's merely an appendage to Fain.  The dagger could drop off the face of the earth after Mat is cleansed of it, and nothing really substantial about the story would have to change.  Indeed, Fain himself could drop off the face of the earth after slashing Rand (which doesn't need to be done with the dagger, Fain is already tainted by the corruption of Shadar Logoth, it's easy to suggest that any weapon wielded by Fain or wound inflicted by him would be likewise tainted) and nothing really substantial about the story would have to change.

 

The dagger is only special because Mat, innocently and naively, makes it special.  Mordeth didn't want the dagger, or anything else, brought outside the city, only himself and someone he could posses.  Mordeth never intended for Mat to take the dagger.  And Mat, in taking it, wasn't being manipulated into fulfilling some 3d chess move of Mordeth's to get the dagger out into the world.  Mordeth didn't need anything but himself to get out.  Changing all that changes too much, for no purpose.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

It doesn't become central to the plot.  It's only an important part of Mat's plot because of what it does to his memory, and after that, it's merely an appendage to Fain.  The dagger could drop off the face of the earth after Mat is cleansed of it, and nothing really substantial about the story would have to change.  Indeed, Fain himself could drop off the face of the earth after slashing Rand (which doesn't need to be done with the dagger, Fain is already tainted by the corruption of Shadar Logoth, it's easy to suggest that any weapon wielded by Fain or wound inflicted by him would be likewise tainted) and nothing really substantial about the story would have to change.

 

The dagger is only special because Mat, innocently and naively, makes it special.  Mordeth didn't want the dagger, or anything else, brought outside the city, only himself and someone he could posses.  Mordeth never intended for Mat to take the dagger.  And Mat, in taking it, wasn't being manipulated into fulfilling some 3d chess move of Mordeth's to get the dagger out into the world.  Mordeth didn't need anything but himself to get out.  Changing all that changes too much, for no purpose.

I see that you feel strongly about it. I understand your argument. I just disagree with it. 

[mistborn82]

The dialogue and picture or whatever, I haven't seen it yet could be from two different places and argument is pointless.

[Elder_Haman]

That's very true. The "let's make a deal" audio could be from a scene in Emond's Field for all we know.

[king of nowhere]

45 minutes ago, mistborn82 said:

The dialogue and picture or whatever, I haven't seen it yet could be from two different places and argument is pointless.

i was just coming in to post that. in trailers they mix scenes and audios from all over the place to tell a shortened narration of the movie's incipit. i don't see why they couldn't have done the same here.

that short sentence is certainly too shaky ground to draw any hard conclusion about changes to plots and characters.

[Elder_Haman]

The conversation definitely took a turn...

Bottom line: awesome clip. Super excited.

[Thrasymachus]

I expect that it is.  But the way that it's cut together also gives a certain implication.

 

I think that what's really bugging me about this deep down is the dagger itself, combined with Tam's sword's lack of crossguards, or Thom's lack of a flute.  That dagger does not look like what's described in the books.  The ruby is supposed to cap the end of the pommel.  The handle is supposed to be wrapped with gold wire, not be a cast, or what looks like to me as gold leaf applied over cheap pewter.  The quillions should curve forward and resemble snake heads.  The blade should be broader and strongly curved; it's a slashing and cutting weapon, not a stabbing or thrusting one.  It's a goddamn chapter icon for goodness sake.  I've seen better ruby-hilted daggers at flea markets.

 

And yeah, it's a minor change.  But it's a minor change that doesn't need to happen.  Nothing hinges on whether the ruby is in the crossguards or capping the hilt.  So why not make it look the way it should?  The same thing with Tam's sword.  Thom's harp changing to a guitar is tolerable because there's a halfway good reason behind it: the actor can play the guitar.  Changing Thom himself to be younger and have a more masculine energy opposite Moiraine is likewise tolerable because there's a purpose behind it.  But robbing Thom of his flute?  What's the point of that?  What's the point of making Tam's sword a generic samurai sword with heron embellishment?  What's the point of making the Shadar Logoth dagger into a cheap dollar-store stilleto?

 

Rafe has assured us that they are trying to be aware of when they make things different from the books, and that when they do, they are doing it intentionally and knowingly.  So what's the intention here, with all these minor, pointless changes?  Change for change's sake is rarely good.  And if they can't stay true to the little things that don't really matter, (though I think Thom's flute does matter) it's a lot harder to maintain confidence that they'll stay true to the big things that do.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Thrasymachus