what places from the Eye of the World would you cut?

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

I think they're going to keep Caemlyn and cut Baerlon now... @deathgate I agree that we don't want major revisions, but shows want sets that they are going to use over and over, it gets too expensive to build a set that you're only going to use once or twice... Which is why I think they'll keep Caemlyn now. 

[johnnysd]

On 1/26/2021 at 4:28 AM, Wolfbrother31 said:

I think they're going to keep Caemlyn and cut Baerlon now... @deathgate I agree that we don't want major revisions, but shows want sets that they are going to use over and over, it gets too expensive to build a set that you're only going to use once or twice... Which is why I think they'll keep Caemlyn now. 

 

If Caemlyn was in Elayne and the rest of the Andorans would need to be in. Rafe  has all but confirmed they are not in. Min is in the last block so Rand seems to meet her in Fal Dara, so Baerlon is likely out. We also know that Moriane's group meets up with the reds hunting Logain. Rafe has also confirmed that there is a scene with lots of Aes Sedai (likely the gentling of Logain) So my guess is that Baerlon and Caemlyn are out. Seems like Four Kings might remain and could be where Thom meets Rand and Mat. After meeting up with the Logain group they probably all go to Tar Valon and the Queen's Blessing is moved there.

 

So I think we see Two Rivers/Edmonds Field, Tairen Ferry, Shadar Logoth, possibly still Whitebridge and Tower, 4 Kings, Tar Valon and Fal Dara.

 

Caemlyn/Baerlon cut. 

[Harldin]

53 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

If Caemlyn was in Elayne and the rest of the Andorans would need to be in. Rafe  has all but confirmed they are not in. Min is in the last block so Rand seems to meet her in Fal Dara, so Baerlon is likely out. We also know that Moriane's group meets up with the reds hunting Logain. Rafe has also confirmed that there is a scene with lots of Aes Sedai (likely the gentling of Logain) So my guess is that Baerlon and Caemlyn are out. Seems like Four Kings might remain and could be where Thom meets Rand and Mat. After meeting up with the Logain group they probably all go to Tar Valon and the Queen's Blessing is moved there.

 

So I think we see Two Rivers/Edmonds Field, Tairen Ferry, Shadar Logoth, possibly still Whitebridge and Tower, 4 Kings, Tar Valon and Fal Dara.

 

Caemlyn/Baerlon cut. 

Deleted

Edited February 7, 2021 by Harldin

[Thrasymachus]

If they take Rand to Tar Valon in the first season, it would make me seriously question Rafe's take on the series.  

[mistborn82]

I don't know if they'll go to the tower since it'll take a long time to get there and to Fal Dara and I don't see a group of AS travelling the Ways. Rand in TV would be too big of a leap.

[Thrasymachus]

A scene at the Tower would be ok with me, presumably when the gentle Logain.  But Rand, and the rest of the Emond's Field 5 better come nowhere near it.  Thematically, narratively, symbolically, it's too important that the only time the Dragon Reborn ever enters the White Tower is under his own power, of his own free choice, once he's fully come into his power and destiny.

[Elder_Haman]

15 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

A scene at the Tower would be ok with me, presumably when the gentle Logain.  But Rand, and the rest of the Emond's Field 5 better come nowhere near it.  Thematically, narratively, symbolically, it's too important that the only time the Dragon Reborn ever enters the White Tower is under his own power, of his own free choice, once he's fully come into his power and destiny.

`100%

I'm sure we will see Tar Valon in the first season. It's a critical location that will be in every season. It's helpful from a "getting to know Randland geography" standpoint. Watching Logain be gentled makes a ton of sense in order to establish Aes Sedai power, the grandeur of the location and the authority of the Amyrlin.

 

Rand better not come close to it though - for exactly the reasons you state. [I could see them making the choice to have Egwene and/or Nynaeve go there, perhaps with Logain. It would not be a choice I'd make, but I could see it.]

[Thrasymachus]

Caemlyn I would think would be every bit as important a location as Tar Valon.  What would be strange to me is the complaint that there's too many locations in tEotW to include them all, so they're gonna cut one of the most important locations in the whole series for this first season, but then they're gonna add a location that doesn't even appear in tEotW.  When I think of places that could be cut from the Eye, I think of Baerlon and Whitebridge and the Grinwells farm and a bunch of the other little towns on the way to Caemlyn (though those should be amalgamated rather than cut entirely and not presented as a set of flashbacks within flashbacks), and even the campsite in Malkier.  Caemlyn is the second-to-last place I would cut, the first being Emond's Field itself.  It would make more sense to cut Fal Dara than Caemlyn, to me.  They could skip right past Fal Dara from the Waygate, do the stuff at the Eye, then go to Fal Dara to find Fain had been captured by a patrol or something.  Literally nothing important happens at Fal Dara prior to the events at the Eye, other than news of a coming battle at Tarwin's Gap.  And that could be delivered by Lan coming back from a scouting trip.

 

Cutting Caemlyn to make room for Tar Valon doesn't make much sense to me.  Caemlyn's a set we'll be returning to again and again, particularly after Rand's return from the Waste, but with two important scenes at least between the Eye and the end of The Dragon Reborn.  It, more than any other city, is the true center of political power in Randland; the only reason the White Tower still has the influence in the South it has is because of Andor's (waning) allegiance and its military and economic strength.

[Elder_Haman]

26 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Cutting Caemlyn to make room for Tar Valon doesn't make much sense to me.  Caemlyn's a set we'll be returning to again and again, particularly after Rand's return from the Waste, but with two important scenes at least between the Eye and the end of The Dragon Reborn.  It, more than any other city, is the true center of political power in Randland; the only reason the White Tower still has the influence in the South it has is because of Andor's (waning) allegiance and its military and economic strength.

All of this is correct, but...

The decision is about worldbuilding for a tv audience, I think. If the series is going to get off the ground, the One Power, the taint, and the Aes Sedai are the things that need to be established first. So it makes sense to start the show by putting those elements front and center.

 

We get our introduction to the Power through Moiraine who, for all intents and purposes, will be the main character. The taint will be introduced through Logain who - by virtue of having his own story line, will also be a main character. The Aes Sedai will be shown in Logain's story line, allowing the audience to see that the Tower is full of women with their own agendas - they aren't all wise counselors like Moiraine.

 

All these threads tie together with Logain's gentling which happens in Tar Valon. From a narrative perspective, it ties the whole season together. (One of these kids is being hunted by monsters, but he's also a man who can channel - that means he'll go crazy like Logain. That also means he'll be hunted by Aes Sedai. If he gets caught, they'll take him and gentle him). It also works thematically - he's being hunted by monsters, but who are the monsters? Can Aes Sedai be trusted? 

 

Camelyn - as important as it is - gets to be developed in Season Two. This way new viewers - who now understand the magic and its role in the world - can digest Randlandian politics more easily.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Elder_Haman

[Thrasymachus]

Ultimately, that's why I'm fine with including Tar Valon in the first season, as long as Rand and co. don't come anywhere near it.  I can think of ways to do all that, though, without needing Tar Valon yet.  And I don't think you can put Caemlyn in Season 2, at least, not until near the end, and only if they intend to end Season 2 where the Dragon Reborn ends, mashing The Great Hunt together with it and Season 1.

 

But there's better places to sacrifice to make room for those scenes.  Baerlon and Whitebridge and almost the whole Caemlyn Road sequence or even Fal Dara.  Caemlyn, as a center of political power, is important to establish as an element of the world-building too.  And it's important for Elayne and Rand's relationship development.  "Love-at-first-sight" is perhaps trite as a plot device, but it's better than having Elayne participate in the Wonder Girl's adventures up to Tear for no good reason for a man she hasn't even met yet.

 

Cuts of scenes and characters, or amalgamations of them, have to be done so carefully in a series like this, or you risk opening up plot holes that could sink the Titanic.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

And it's important for Elayne and Rand's relationship development.  "Love-at-first-sight" is perhaps trite as a plot device, but it's better than having Elayne participate in the Wonder Girl's adventures up to Tear for no good reason for a man she hasn't even met yet.

They can't have Elayne's entire existence in the plot be due to her falling in love with some kid that falls into her garden. It needs to be clear that Elayne is part of the plot because she is the daughter-heir to one of the most important kingdoms in Randland.

 

Since the "Wonder Girl's adventures" - as you put it - begin with the kidnapping, you need only re-write the reason for the kidnapping. Make Elayne the target of the plot with Egwene and Nynaeve being the afterthoughts rather than the other way around. It makes sense that Rahvin would want to get rid of Elayne, so that becomes Liandrin's motivation (wittingly or unwittingly). It brings Andor front and center and makes the resulting conflict between Morgase and the Tower the focal point of the narrative instead of an unintended after-effect of Elayne being boy crazy. 

 

It places Elayne and Andor front and center in Season 2 and allows you to relegate the Hunt for the Horn to a side plot where the writers can focus more on character development. 

 

[johnnysd]

12 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Ultimately, that's why I'm fine with including Tar Valon in the first season, as long as Rand and co. don't come anywhere near it.  I can think of ways to do all that, though, without needing Tar Valon yet.  And I don't think you can put Caemlyn in Season 2, at least, not until near the end, and only if they intend to end Season 2 where the Dragon Reborn ends, mashing The Great Hunt together with it and Season 1.

 

But there's better places to sacrifice to make room for those scenes.  Baerlon and Whitebridge and almost the whole Caemlyn Road sequence or even Fal Dara.  Caemlyn, as a center of political power, is important to establish as an element of the world-building too.  And it's important for Elayne and Rand's relationship development.  "Love-at-first-sight" is perhaps trite as a plot device, but it's better than having Elayne participate in the Wonder Girl's adventures up to Tear for no good reason for a man she hasn't even met yet.

 

Cuts of scenes and characters, or amalgamations of them, have to be done so carefully in a series like this, or you risk opening up plot holes that could sink the Titanic.

 

I am like 99% sure that Tar Valon will be in Season 1 and Caemlyn will not. Just looking at Rafe's replies and tidbits it is easy to come to that conclusion. Rand does not have to be in the White Tower for them to be in Tar Valon. They can go to the Queen's Blessing (maybe renamed) and wait for Moiraine and the others just like in the book. Then use the Tar Valon waygate for Fal Dara even before he has a chance to be in the Tower. I had really thought that Egwene and Nynaeve would stay at Tar Valon and not go to Fal Dara, but it seems Egwene at least has scenes there so my theory on that was wrong. By the way they cut cities for budget reasons not story telling reasons. Rafe said he wanted fewer spectacular cities than many mediocre ones. Several people that have worked on WoT have mentioned that the sets on the show are maybe the biggest and most impressive they have ever seen. FWIW I do NOT like them cutting Caemlyn, to me the whole sequence of following Logain, seeing him, Logain laughing and falling into the garden is one of the most iconic scenes in the books but I do not think we get it. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, johnnysd said:

Rand does not have to be in the White Tower for them to be in Tar Valon. They can go to the Queen's Blessing (maybe renamed) and wait for Moiraine and the others just like in the book. Then use the Tar Valon waygate for Fal Dara even before he has a chance to be in the Tower. 

They don't have to go to Tar Valon at all. I really dislike the idea of just switching Tar Valon for Camelyn as the post Shadar Logoth meeting place.

 

I much prefer - and think you'll get - a repurposing of, say Four Kings, as the post Shadar Logoth meeting point. Logain and Rand can have their interaction. Moiraine can bump into the reds. The Camelyn Waygate can be relocated to just outside the city. (That way they can give us a glimpse via matte painting or CGI of what Camelyn looks like without having to build a set)

 

5 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

FWIW I do NOT like them cutting Caemlyn, to me the whole sequence of following Logain, seeing him, Logain laughing and falling into the garden is one of the most iconic scenes in the books but I do not think we get it. 

I don't love it either, but I get it from the perspective of making an adaptation.

[johnnysd]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

They don't have to go to Tar Valon at all. I really dislike the idea of just switching Tar Valon for Camelyn as the post Shadar Logoth meeting place.

 

.

 

Lots of things point to it and let's not forget that even in the books that is the intended target for Rand. I am just reading through the lines on what Rafe has said. The one glimmer of hope for Caemlyn though is that they did do the Spain scenes which has a Caemlyn vibe to it. But I think we don't see it until Season 2. If it is in Season 2, do they combine Cairihein and Camlyn? I would personally hate it but it's possible.

[Thrasymachus]

But Elayne's not just part of the plot because she's the Daughter-Heir of one of the most powerful nations.  It's also because she fell in love with Rand.  That she's Daughter-Heir determines the course of her plot.  But what makes that plot development a main story is that she's in love with Rand and acts to aid him, and he reciprocates.  Otherwise, Colavere, as presumptive heir of Cairhein, would have as much claim to main character status.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Lots of things point to it and let's not forget that even in the books that is the intended target for Rand. I am just reading through the lines on what Rafe has said. 

Which things do you think point to it? I know Rafe has talked about the importance of limiting the number of locations. I don't know why that would signal Rand being in Tar Valon though. Was there something else you're thinking of?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Thrasymachus said:

But Elayne's not just part of the plot because she's the Daughter-Heir of one of the most powerful nations.  It's also because she fell in love with Rand.  That she's Daughter-Heir determines the course of her plot.  But what makes that plot development a main story is that she's in love with Rand and acts to aid him, and he reciprocates.  Otherwise, Colavere, as presumptive heir of Cairhein, would have as much claim to main character status.

Yes, in the books. I mean that a tv audience shouldn't be made to feel like the only reason Elayne is part of the story is because she gets besotted. She should be introduced in a way that makes it clear she is important in her own right before going gaga for Rand. 

[Thrasymachus]

I think this is a case where absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  No announced casting of Elayne, Gawyn, Galad or Morgase, at this late stage, means they're probably not in.  I don't know of any reason why they'd hide that casting from us.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Caemlyn has been cut.  That's not a decision, however, that I like very much, so I hope, despite the evidence, that it hasn't been cut.  And I would be even more doubtful of replacing Caemlyn with Tar Valon.  I am already somewhat doubtful of expanding Logain's early role, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

[johnnysd]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Which things do you think point to it? I know Rafe has talked about the importance of limiting the number of locations. I don't know why that would signal Rand being in Tar Valon though. Was there something else you're thinking of?

 

Yes, so there is the Instagram post Rafe made about the council of Aes Sedai and all the wonderful actresses there that day, which is almost certainly the stilling of Logain.

 

Now it is possible that the the stilling itself takes place in Caenlyn instead, but if that is true then you need to Rand scenes which means that Elayne, Galad/Gawyn, and Elaida at a minimum need to cast. Many people thought Kate Franz is Elayne but Geeky Eri thinks not.

 

Plus Rafe has said that one major character from Book 1 is not in season 1 that people will not be surprised at and 1 that they will be shocked. The consensus was the the not surprising one is Elayne and the surprising one is Ishamael. If that group think is wrong, it brings Caemlyn and Elyane et all back into play.

 

Stilling at Tar Valon seems to fit the evidence better IMO

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, johnnysd said:

Yes, so there is the Instagram post Rafe made about the council of Aes Sedai and all the wonderful actresses there that day, which is almost certainly the stilling of Logain.

 

Now it is possible that the the stilling itself takes place in Caenlyn instead, but if that is true then you need to Rand scenes which means that Elayne, Galad/Gawyn, and Elaida at a minimum need to cast. Many people thought Kate Franz is Elayne but Geeky Eri thinks not.

 

Plus Rafe has said that one major character from Book 1 is not in season 1 that people will not be surprised at and 1 that they will be shocked. The consensus was the the not surprising one is Elayne and the surprising one is Ishamael. If that group think is wrong, it brings Caemlyn and Elyane et all back into play.

 

Stilling at Tar Valon seems to fit the evidence better IMO

Oh. No. I mean, what evidence that Emond's Fielders go to Tar Valon. I've no doubt that we will seen Logain stilled. I just don't think any of the Emond's Field five will be there. I was wondering if you had anything about that.

[mistborn82]

@ThrasymachusI hope they emphasize the noble angle with Elayne and Rand, like she's betrothed or marries because he's the Dragon. Conversely, you could play up that he's the heir of the last house and for that reason, she's betrothed to him. I just think WOT already has too many because plot, elements and other explanations should be found for as many as possible.

[johnnysd]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Oh. No. I mean, what evidence that Emond's Fielders go to Tar Valon. I've no doubt that we will seen Logain stilled. I just don't think any of the Emond's Field five will be there. I was wondering if you had anything about that.

 

Well my thought is this. We know from the script reads that Moiraine eventually meets up with the Reds hunting Logain, likely after he is captured and likely on the way to Tar Valon. I suspect they have rescued Perrin and Egwene and Nynaeve is tagging along at this point as well with Mat and Rand still seperated.

 

So at this point there are really 3 possibilities.

 

1. Somehow the Logain group meets up with Rand/Mat somewhere outside of a major city.  Where? It makes no sense for Bassel Gil to be innkeeper in Four Kings, so maybe he has an Inn outside of Camelyn where they meet on the road to Tar Valon? Possible they could just use CGI and Matte to show Camelyn without needing actual sets.  Then it could proceed as in the books with them sneaking away from the Reds to get to the Waygate. I could see that working

 

2. Moiraine and the others split from the group and go and meet Basel Gil in Camelyn. This has the issue of it being unlikely that they ADD a big city in Tar Valon. So then likely the stilling is done in Camelyn, but then there is the issue of Elayne and whether she not being cast is a red herring. Possible I guess but thats a lot of casting to hide. Seems unlikely though there HAS to be some reasonably major castings still unannounced for some reason.

 

3. The most logical one to me is that they just continue on to Tar Valon as part of the Logain group. Requires the least amount of plot histrionics, and it is keeping with Tar Valon being the target all along and they can show Tar Valon (to hook viewers) in all its glory

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 

Well my thought is this. We know from the script reads that Moiraine eventually meets up with the Reds hunting Logain, likely after he is captured and likely on the way to Tar Valon. I suspect they have rescued Perrin and Egwene and Nynaeve is tagging along at this point as well with Mat and Rand still seperated.

 

Are you referring to the leaked audition tapes? I'd take anything found in those with a huge grain of salt. They may bear no relationship whatsoever to the script of the actual show. 

[Thrasymachus]

See, I disagree with making Elayne's romance with Rand a mere political convenience.  Insofar as this is a story about their emotional journeys, Elayne needs to be in actual love with Rand, the same as Min and Aviendha, and he needs to love him back.  That love-quadrangle is a vital part of their emotional journeys.  Insofar as this is also a story about people taking on the roles of mythic figures as fate demands, Elayne needs to actually love Rand in her role as Mother in the mythic Maiden-Mother-Crone triad.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Thrasymachus said:

See, I disagree with making Elayne's romance with Rand a mere political convenience.  Insofar as this is a story about their emotional journeys, Elayne needs to be in actual love with Rand, the same as Min and Aviendha, and he needs to love him back.  That love-quadrangle is a vital part of their emotional journeys.  Insofar as this is also a story about people taking on the roles of mythic figures as fate demands, Elayne needs to actually love Rand in her role as Mother in the mythic Maiden-Mother-Crone triad.

I don't really like the idea of making the relationship an entirely political one either. I just move their "love at first sight" moment from the garden to the Stone.