The Too Young Sitter Conspiracy.

[Luckers]

Ok, i mentioned this in another thread and recieved blank looks, so im going to restate it with apologies if everyone already knows about it. :)

 

Ok, this conpiracy was first noted by Suine, who tells Egwene that all of the Sitters raised in Salidar aside from Moria and Romanda (and excluding those who had been Sitters before the split) were too young. And she stresses that this IS weird. Now, Moria was raised into the Blue, and is therefore exempt because the Blue and the Red both have no involvement with this. It is only the Five other Ajahs. And Romanda... is Romanda. She wanted a seat, and she got one.

 

Later, in CoT, Seine notices a similar trend in the Sitters raised in the Tower. She even specifies that it is the only in the non-read Ajahs that this happens.

 

Ok, now lts look at the effect this has.

 

Sitters. * denotes a rebel.

 

Red = 3 normal (Pevara, Duhara and Javindhra), no abnormal.

 

Blue = 3 normal (Lelaine*, Moria* and Lyrelle*), no abnormal.

 

Yellow = 4 normal (Romanda*, Magla*, Doesine, Sedore), 2 abnormal (Salita* and Suana).

 

White = 3 normal (Saroiya*, Seaine and Valina), 3 abnormal (Aledrin*, Berana* and Ferane).

 

Gray = 3 normal (Varilin*, Yukiri and an unamed Sitter from the tower), 3 abnormal (Delana*, Kwamesa* and Andaya).

 

Green = 3 normal (Faiselle*, Talene, Rubinde), 3 abnormal (Malind*, Semalin* and Rina)

 

Brown = 4 normal (Jenya*, Takima*, Shevan and Saerin), 2 abnormal (Escarlde* and Juilaine).

 

Now, it should be noted that with the exception of the Yellow and the Brown, this sets up a situation in which the Halls could theoretically be combined without ruffling too many feathers. The discrepency in the Yellow is caused by the appearence of Romanda, who, as is stated many times essentially had a seat from the moment she had appeared due to her record. And the discrepancy in the Brown is created by the fact that it is the only Ajah aside from the Blue to have had two pre-schism sitters come to Salidar.

 

So essentially someone is trying to re-unify the Aes Sedai, and has been doing so for sometime. But who?

 

In the Tower the obvious answer is the Ajah Heads. They are the only group outside of the Black Ajah that could dictate policy in the selection of Sitters across five Ajah. Moreover they have been noted to have been plotting something for some time now, almost fom the moment that the Tower is split, and RJ specifically had seine establish a foreshadow wherein the consideration of the too-young sitters was raised directly before a consideration of what the Ajah Heads were up to.

 

And what of the Rebels? Six pre-schism sitters found their way to Salidar. They are Magla (Yellow), Saroiya (white), Takima (brown), Jenya (brown), Faiselle (green), Varilin (grey).

 

One sitter from each ajah, except the brown, which has two. Jenya does not seem to be involved in this conspiracy though, and should be ignored. The other five, however, show a pattern.

 

At every stage where something has been raised that threatens to escalate the situation between the two groups, those five unilatirally have voted against it in spite of the position of their Ajah. They voted against the War vote. They voted against the Black Ajah Alliance, they voted for negotiations, and took over those negotiations. Romanda notes in KoD that it is almost as if they are arguing for Elaida, though they stand fast against the abolishment of the Blue Ajah.

 

Now of the six sitters in the tower chosen to replace these six women (including Jenya), five are not logical choices, according to Seaine, directly parallelled in Ajah with the five who have made every attempt to hinder the rebellion and foster reunification.

 

My guess is that during the early days, the Ajah Heads saw the schism happening, and acted to prevent it by commanding those five to go and prevet any escalation of the situation. Jenya, i believe, went of her own volition.

 

We know that the Tower heard of the gathering at Salidar, and it is noted by Beonin in KoD that non-Blue sitters did not come to join the rebellion for some time after is formed. Time enough for them to contact the Ajah Heads. Moreover, in KoD we have direct proof that Magla, at least, was behind the raising of the too-young yellow sitter.

 

That, in a nut shell, is the Too Young Sitter Conspiracy. Unless i forgot something, which happens. :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Having considered the "Too Young Sitter" theory, I agree that the only purpose seems to be expediting the reintegration of the Tower and the Hall, and that the Ajah Heads are the most likely conspirators. I don't see anything wrong with any of your information as far as it goes. Also, it is supported circumstantially by the "strange way" that the Ajah heads are acting in the Tower (mentioned in the WH prologue, among other places).

 

The questions it leaves me with are these:

 

Are the Tower Ajah heads in communication with their Rebel counterparts?

 

Was Galina aware of this as the Highest of the Red Ajah? If she was, does that mean that Alviarin (and therefore Mesaana) knows?

 

Do either Tsutama (Highest of the Red Ajah) or the First Selector of the Blue Ajah (is it Eadyth still? I don't remember seeing her in Salidar) know what is going on?

 

One thing is certain, in my mind. With the way Jordan has played this conspiracy up, I feel certain that the Ajah Head cabal is going to be instrumental in expediting Egwene's move to depose Elaida. In fact, it is most likely during that crisis that they will be revealed.

[Tenshin_Xo]

RAW I think its likely that the young sitters were chose so they would be obvious selections to step down so that when the tower unifies there won't be too many sitters. In addition thier inexperience makes them more dependent on thier ajah heads.

 

I agree that they will be the key to reuniting the tower, and I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow are supposed to act as a lure for Elaida, to force her to show her hand and cruelty.

[Graendals favourite]

I've had theorisations on this too, so I'll add my bit:

 

Additionally, the conspiracy five immediately took over the negotiations with the tower, and as they negotiate with the Hall of the Tower there who disobey Elaida, they are certainly communicating directly now.

 

In my opinion, the five are also very vehement in their efforts. I wouldn't think it impossible that they'd made a similar oath to the Ajah heads as Egwene's sisters to her.

 

Another thing is, the five effectively stopped any decision-making in the rebel Hall, by splitting themselves up between Romanda and Lelaine. It was not known immediately however that there would be a rebel Hall. Anyway, their actions started changing when Egwene grew in power. I think they, or the too young ones, are the ones who are torturing Sheriam.

 

Galina was likely not aware of this, because Alviarin and Mesaana do not know why the heads are meeting. None of the Ajah heads in the Tower are Black! This directly implies that the five Ajah heads are speaking directly to the rebel five, none of which are black, since otherwise Mesaana and Alviarin would know. Implies anyway.

 

I don't know if there's been a mention, did Pevara comment on the Ajah heads meeting? Otherwise no, one would think the Red and Blue be kept out of this, at the start at least, though they could well tell Tsutama. That Tsutama might know might explain her sending sisters out of the Tower, perhaps.

 

I think there may be something fishy about some of the too-young ones too, some of them may have formed an alliance.

[RobertAlexWillis]

RAW I think its likely that the young sitters were chose so they would be obvious selections to step down so that when the tower unifies there won't be too many sitters. In addition thier inexperience makes them more dependent on thier ajah heads.

 

I think thats the essence of what Luckers said, which I agreed with, so yes, you're probably right.

 

I wouldn't think it impossible that they'd made a similar oath to the Ajah heads as Egwene's sisters to her.

 

I would personally doubt that, but there is no direct evidence against it.

 

Galina was likely not aware of this, because Alviarin and Mesaana do not know why the heads are meeting. None of the Ajah heads in the Tower are Black! This directly implies that the five Ajah heads are speaking directly to the rebel five, none of which are black, since otherwise Mesaana and Alviarin would know. Implies anyway.

 

Good point. I had forgotten that Alviarin wondered why they were meeting.

 

Which makes sense. When the Ajah heads hatched this little plan (assuming its as we think), then they would have anticipated problems from Galina, being a Red close to Elaida. Hence, they would not have included her.

 

Now that Tsutama is back and Galina is gone, though, I wonder if Tsutama will be brought in on it? She's not fond of Elaida.

 

I don't know if there's been a mention, did Pevara comment on the Ajah heads meeting? Otherwise no, one would think the Red and Blue be kept out of this, at the start at least, though they could well tell Tsutama. That Tsutama might know might explain her sending sisters out of the Tower, perhaps.

 

In the first reference I tracked down, (WH Prologue) Seaine just thinks about it to herself, while they are questioning Talene. In another (CoT Prologue), Seaine and Yukiri actually discuss the Ajah heads' behavior in conjunction with the new Sitters who have been selected since the split (ie that all the new Sitters in the Tower had been hand-picked by the Ajah heads).

 

Since Pevara is in Seaine's Black Ajah hunting group, its not unlikely that she has mentioned it to Pevara, but I couldn't find any direct quote. The Red obviously didn't send any sitters to Salidar, so there would have been no odd new Sitter chosen, but I imagine Pevara is still aware of the situation.

 

If Pevara does know (either through being told or by her own observations) then she would be a likely candidate to tell Tsutama.

 

I think there may be something fishy about some of the too-young ones too, some of them may have formed an alliance.

 

I would imagine that what looks like an alliance is just the result of getting similar orders from their various Ajah heads, but with Aes Sedai, you never know.

[Tenshin_Xo]

With the animosity between ajah's in the tower, do you think there could be some aim at crippling the Reds?

[Guest Cadsuane]

I would guess that with Tsutama now in control, there won't be the same motivation to do anything to the Reds as there would be if Elaida or Galina were still running things. I haven't read KoD in a while, but I remember being surprised in a good way at Tsutama's outlook, which is why I think the Reds won't be a target for the other ajahs.

[Luckers]

Are the Tower Ajah heads in communication with their Rebel counterparts?

 

My guess, based on the fact that the new weaves havn't spread, and what we've seen with Beonin, is that no, there has not been much communication between the rebel Five and the Ajah Heads. It seems likely that conspiracy is a strong term... i dont think that the Five are working for the Ajah Heads to gut the rebellion. I think the Ajah Heads came to them with concerns about the fragmenting of the Aes Sedai, and they came to a lose agreement that if they left, the Ajah Heads would hold their positions open, and make it known that they weren't rebelling, but working for the good of the Aes Sedai as a whole.

 

I think their loose agreement was to work towards unifying the Aes Sedai. Not nessasarily under Elaida. Romanda notes that they work as strongly to get rid of the abolishment of the Blue Ajah, and even ask for Elaida to step down. Their goal is not nessasarily the destruction of the rebels, so much as the reunification of the Aes Sedai. They worked to lessen the antogonisation, to facilitate the smoothness with which the two groups come back together, and so forth. And i believe that their work will prove to be very helpful, especially since i believe that a majority of the suitable sitters will join with Egwene during the Seanchan attack... I think a majority will be down in the basement with Pevara.

 

Was Galina aware of this as the Highest of the Red Ajah? If she was, does that mean that Alviarin (and therefore Mesaana) knows?

 

Do either Tsutama (Highest of the Red Ajah) or the First Selector of the Blue Ajah (is it Eadyth still? I don't remember seeing her in Salidar) know what is going on?

 

I really doubt the Ajah Heads brought the Red or the Blue in on what they were planning. It would be counter-productive. I also doubt that the Black have been made aware of this plot, since it goes against their standing order of escalating the situation. Had they learnt, it is my belief that the Five and the Ajah Heads would have met... untimely death.

 

Certainly, however, it has been noticed that the Ajah Heads are plotting something. Though not recently, which suggests they may have gotten wary after being noticed, or simply cannot meet given the escalated situation between the Ajahs in the Tower.

 

One thing is certain, in my mind. With the way Jordan has played this conspiracy up, I feel certain that the Ajah Head cabal is going to be instrumental in expediting Egwene's move to depose Elaida. In fact, it is most likely during that crisis that they will be revealed.

 

Well, for starters i believe that Pevara and the Black Ajah Hunters will be in the basements with Talene during the Seanchan attack, and will meet Egwene on their way up to aid in the attack. They will then go with Egwene, and in time join Egwene's Hall, replacing the Too-Young Sitters.

 

As for direct interaction. Egwene takes a lesson from Serancha Colvine the Head of the Grey, and counts it one of her great failures. Then she takes one from Adelorna, the Head of the Green, who also seems stern, but by the end seems to have change her mind. She says she wishes Cadsuane was in the Tower, and that she thought even Cadsuane would have trouble with Egwene with a touch of respect in her voice. Ferane, the Head of the White spanks her for being late after the meeting with Beonin.

 

And she glosses over several of her meetings with sisters and sitters who 'nodded thoughtfully, before they could stop themselves' or even just 'merely told her to be silent'.

 

But i do admit that its strange that of the five named Aes Sedai teachers, three were Ajah Heads. All three seemingly take dislike to her, but then again based on Adelorna, they could just be pushing her to see her metal... or, since their stated gain is the reunification of the Tower at any cost, then suppressing Egwene would seem a gain... at least until she displayed herself to be better then elaida, which again, fits what we see with Adelorna.

 

In my opinion, the five are also very vehement in their efforts. I wouldn't think it impossible that they'd made a similar oath to the Ajah heads as Egwene's sisters to her.

 

Maybe. On the other hand vehemenance often has more to do with personal belief, which i think matches their position better. I think that they, like Merise, hold that the Tower should be unified and are vehemenent because they believe in that so strongly. And what sort of leverage would the Ajah Heads have had on those sitters to gain that oath. Its clear from Myrelle and Suine's reactions that such Oaths are unheard off.

 

Galina was likely not aware of this, because Alviarin and Mesaana do not know why the heads are meeting. None of the Ajah heads in the Tower are Black! This directly implies that the five Ajah heads are speaking directly to the rebel five, none of which are black, since otherwise Mesaana and Alviarin would know. Implies anyway.

 

I agree. And if they knew, they would act against it.

 

I don't know if there's been a mention, did Pevara comment on the Ajah heads meeting? Otherwise no, one would think the Red and Blue be kept out of this, at the start at least, though they could well tell Tsutama. That Tsutama might know might explain her sending sisters out of the Tower, perhaps.

 

The Ajah Heads meeting have been noticed by many sisters, which is perhaps why they stopped. Pevara is aware of it, but at this time Galina was out of the Tower, and therefore she didn't connect that these meetings were excluding the Red.

 

Now that Tsutama is back and Galina is gone, though, I wonder if Tsutama will be brought in on it? She's not fond of Elaida.

 

Perhaps. And certainly she seems... innovative, for a Red. But again, I doubt they would risk it. Even Pevara is wary of Tsutama's unpredictability. She even conciders that she might be insane. I doubt they would bring in a largely unknown, decidedly unstable Ajah Head at this late stage. Certainly not a Red.

 

If Pevara does know (either through being told or by her own observations) then she would be a likely candidate to tell Tsutama.

 

They stopped meeting--at least openly. And given Galina's absense from the Tower, its possible no one realised the Red were being excluded, and that such a thing wouldn't occur now that the Red have a Head present in the Tower, since there are no more noticeable meetings.

[Rufae]

I think the Red Ajah as we know it is over. Their sole purpose was to searcha nd destroy male chanelers and now a good chunk of them are bonded to male channelers. The remaining red sisters can't hunt these male channelers and kill/sever them because that would be a death sentence for their own bonded sisters. Also, with the cleansing, it appears that the future will contain male Aes Sedai once again so their main purpose is at an end. I think the Red will spilt. Those unbonded will be soaked up into other ajahs and those bonded will form a new ajah.

 

SO no, I don't think that Galina and the other Reds are in opn the rejoin conspiracy, or if they were, they are now irrelevant.

 

My 2 cents.

[Iceman]

Another thing is' date=' the five effectively stopped any decision-making in the rebel Hall, by splitting themselves up between Romanda and Lelaine. It was not known immediately however that there would be a rebel Hall. Anyway, their actions started changing when Egwene grew in power. I think they, or the too young ones, are the ones who are torturing Sheriam.[/quote']

 

Can someone remind me where it mentions Sheriam being tortured? I've noticed her behavior being a bit "loopy" in the last couple books, but I wasn't sure why myself. I must've glossed over a chapter somewhere.

[Guest Barmacral]

Its one short POV in I think PoD. I don't recall offhand exactly where.

[Luckers]

Basically she returns to her tent, is shielded and stripped of her clothes, and beaten with a switch woven from Air. A voice tells her she was supposed to find out what the girl [egwene] was up to, and as she sobs and tries to convince that person she had tried she thinks to herself that she wishes she had never spoken to a sitter in her life.

[Jarred Darque]

Perhaps things are the opposite? Perhaps someone or some group is setting up a reunification of the tower, at least making it easier, but by usingthe too young sitters as the new hall once it is rebuilt.

 

If that osmeone or some group where to gain the Stole, and havinga too young hall which could easily be pushed around...well ya get the idea...just a thought..nothing to back it up really :)

[Rufae]

Anyone think to expand this "Too Young Sitter Theory" to Egwene? I mean, she is a "Too Young Amyrlin". So at the reunification, do you think that they would have chosen an older more "logical" choice and therefore expect Egwene to step down after she had served her purpose. Elaida would be desposed and Egwene would have to step down in leiu of a more "appropiate canidate".

However, I think Egwene is going to prove a bigger dog than they thought and will keep her position.

[Jarred Darque]

That is quite possible, however, again what about the opposite one naive person might have thought they could control Egwene with her being so young and unexperienced

[Rufae]

I think they wqould have learnedf their lesson in that case with Suian. She was also young and they thought to control her in my opinion. She burned them generally until Elaida came.

 

It would not surprise me if the Too Young Theory is not the Ajah Heads but Suian's doing anyways. I mean, it was her idea to raise Egwene to the Seat anyways. She still might be pulling the strings.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It would not surprise me if the Too Young Theory is not the Ajah Heads but Suian's doing anyways. I mean, it was her idea to raise Egwene to the Seat anyways. She still might be pulling the strings.

 

I'm afraid I would have to disagree. Siuan seems genuinely confused ... she is the one who brings the strange pattern to Egwene's attention, when they are alone. She pretty much confides in Egwene now ... if it were somehow her doing, she would have told Egwene.

 

Also, the Hall was chosen fairly early on at Salidar. It was chosen shortly after she arrived, but before she was Healed by Nynaeve. Certainly it was chosen before she could have manipulated the situation.

 

Finally, the pattern includes sitters chosen in the Tower, after Siuan was deposed. There's no way Siuan could have pulled the strings on those.

[Rufae]

Yeah your right. But I still think it might be possible for Eggy to be included in the Too Young senarios. You gotta think that the Ajah heads would not want either Amyrlin to win out since there will forever be this divide in the Tower between either's supporers. So the natural solution would be to choose a new independant Amyrlin at reunitification. So following the same logic as the Young Sitters, it would seem natural to choose a young Rebel Amyrlin to step down at the right time for a "better" canidate.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But I still think it might be possible for Eggy to be included in the Too Young senarios. You gotta think that the Ajah heads would not want either Amyrlin to win out since there will forever be this divide in the Tower between either's supporers.

 

Well ... I'm afraid I have to object again. We DO know that Egwene's call to become Amyrlin was engineered in Salidar, and influenced by Siuan. The Ajah Heads would have had to make their plans and give their instructions for the choosing of Sitters before it was known where Egwene was or how to contact her.

 

Plus, the position of Sitter is not really a public one ... few outside the Tower know who the Sitters are, what they do, etc. The Amyrlin Seat is a very public office ... probably the most public one in Randland. Especially since Egwene has become known as the Amyrlin challenging Elaida, it would not be in the Tower's interest to remove her, after a re-unification.

 

I'm afraid indications are that this is just a coincidence.

[cloglord]

I've been forming a nascent theory in the back of my head that might help explain this as well. We know that roughly 1/3rd of the aes sedai are with the rebels, that 1/3rd of the aes sedai, (minus the 51+ captured sisters and assorted Elaida exiles,) are in the towe, and that roughly 1/3rd are standing aside. What if this last 3rd is actually under the direction of someone else? That someone being, Cadsuane.

 

I have noticed that Cadsuane has a small network of aes sedai that she brings with her to Carhien. They are carefully chosen for their abilities and not because of op strength. Further, she seemed to have a pretty extensive network of contacts to have heard the rumors about Taim's escape so soon after Logain's capture. Thirdly, she has more pull than any other single sister besides the two amrylins. I of course have nothing more than a hunch about this, but I think that it would be an interesting turn for Cadsuane to be able to direct the fencesitting sisters back into the fold and help to unify the tower in short order. Or it could be that Cadsuane is using her aes sedai to keep tabs on the black tower. there are a number of unnacounted for aes sedai frequenting the silver swan in camelyn. Why should we asume that Cadsuane gave up her aims at Taim, just because of Rand's amnesty? What if this is the lesson that all the ashamen need to learn from her?

[cloglord]

I found the pertinent quote.

 

WH Ch.13 Pg 311 (In my 1st edition hardback)

 

"She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strangeevents in Shienar..."

 

Since Cadsuane has purposely not taken sides in the tower split, should we assume that those sisters she's gathered have not either? Do they make up the bulk of those sisters staying outside the conflict?

[Jaric Mondoran]

I like Luckers' layout of the theory as it stands now. I don't think Romanda's POV in KoD has been mentioned, but it's the most direct evidence that the non-Blue Sitters who left when Siuan was deposed are at the heart of this funny business.

 

Whether the whole scheme was initiated by the Sitters themselves or the Ajah heads is a secondary point, and I don't think there's as much evidence for this in the books.

 

Does it seem plausible to anyone that Egwene's abduction may have been directed by these folks to give her an opportunity to audition for the job, so to speak? It certainly seems to have been exploited for that purpose, but the Ajah heads may be behind the whole thing.

[Luckers]

I'd concider it more likely, were that the case, that it was done in order to remove Egwene from the Amyrlin Seat. Recall her not being executed came as a surprise to the Aes Sedai under Elaida.

[Terez]

This theory was posted last year at Theoryland by Callandor, with much more detail (link). The FAQ has had the general information behind the theory up for a while now, but Callandor does a good job collecting all the quotes from the books that show how the theory works.

[cloglord]

Wow, that is a good post. The only question I can add is to ask, how the ajah heads know each other?

 

My money is on Cadsuane, but thats pure speculation.