A thought about the eye and sealing the DO

[TheSociopath]

So, what if when Lews Therin was sealing the DO, he had used the eye? 

Or rather, a pool of Saidin, seperate from the source?

While he and the hundred companions might still have been driven insane, the source itself wouldn't have been, would it?

Following along the line of thinking, If that process had been used so that Lews could have had happy little pools of Saidin and Saidar, could he have made a stronger seal that lasted for a few thousand years longer?

[Sabio]

That would of meant they suspected the DO would taint the male half. But time was a critical factor for them so creating such pools would of taken awhile.  The 100 companions were only driven insane because the taint, so if they were daring on separate power, none would of gone insane.  The big issue still would of been no women would help LTT, so the seal would still of been flawed.

[agreddon]

The Pool of Saidin was created after the breaking of the world, not before.

[wotfan4472]

No.The Eye of the World was created just before the Stone was near the beginning of the Breaking. We have a scene in Rand's Rhuidian excursion that they were preparing to go make it. Only they needed to tell Someshta their plans for him before leaving to do it. The Stone was going to be made afterwards to protect Callandor. That was their next task. The scene takes place in Paaran Disen.

Edited April 23, 2018 by wotfan4472

[Maedelin]

On 4/22/2018 at 9:36 PM, wotfan4472 said:

No.The Eye of the World was created just before the Stone was near the beginning of the Breaking. We have a scene in Rand's Rhuidian excursion that they were preparing to go make it. Only they needed to tell Someshta their plans for him before leaving to do it. The Stone was going to be made afterwards to protect Callandor. That was their next task. The scene takes place in Paaran Disen.

I don't know Wotfan.  I have to admit, based on the items on the table in that flashback, I thought that they were going to put Callandor into the Stone.  The Sword That is Not a Sword was also on the table, along with the Dragon's Banner.  My assumption was that they were going to use both halves of the Source to create the protection for the sword, and not the pool of pure Saidin.  But that's just me. :)

[solarz]

On 4/19/2018 at 9:28 PM, TheSociopath said:

So, what if when Lews Therin was sealing the DO, he had used the eye? 

Or rather, a pool of Saidin, seperate from the source?

While he and the hundred companions might still have been driven insane, the source itself wouldn't have been, would it?

Following along the line of thinking, If that process had been used so that Lews could have had happy little pools of Saidin and Saidar, could he have made a stronger seal that lasted for a few thousand years longer?

 

Yes, quite likely. The entire reason the Breaking happened was that Lews Therin only had the male Aes Sedai. Remember that the Eye was created with both male and female Aes Sedai, and Moiraine claimed that not even all the female channelers in the world could have filled a spoon with the One Power without the men.

 

The other thing to consider is that Lews Therin never considered the possibility that the Dark One could taint Saidin. You cannot prepare for what you never considered.

Edited April 25, 2018 by solarz

[TheSociopath]

yeah, I'm not really debating that someone should have done it, I'm simply curious about this line of thinking.

Also, if Lews did have access to female Aes Sedai, and they didn't use some store of power similar to the eye, then both halves would have been tainted, wouldn't they?

[solarz]

9 minutes ago, TheSociopath said:

yeah, I'm not really debating that someone should have done it, I'm simply curious about this line of thinking.

Also, if Lews did have access to female Aes Sedai, and they didn't use some store of power similar to the eye, then both halves would have been tainted, wouldn't they?

 

The truth is, no one knows.

[TheSociopath]

Yeah, but we can still speculate and enjoy it. We can just go by the rules we currently know. 

[agreddon]

On 4/22/2018 at 7:36 PM, wotfan4472 said:

No.The Eye of the World was created just before the Stone was near the beginning of the Breaking. We have a scene in Rand's Rhuidian excursion that they were preparing to go make it. Only they needed to tell Someshta their plans for him before leaving to do it. The Stone was going to be made afterwards to protect Callandor. That was their next task. The scene takes place in Paaran Disen.

And that happens after LTT and the rest of the followers go insane, as evidenced by the point of view opinion stating that the banner should be burned along with every other memory of the man.

[solarz]

2 hours ago, TheSociopath said:

Yeah, but we can still speculate and enjoy it. We can just go by the rules we currently know. 

 

The problem is that no one knows what the Dark One is able or isn't able to do.

[TheSociopath]

well, he was able to taint Saidin because it came into contact with him, yes?

then, if Saidar touched him would he not be able to also taint it?

 

[solarz]

45 minutes ago, TheSociopath said:

well, he was able to taint Saidin because it came into contact with him, yes?

then, if Saidar touched him would he not be able to also taint it?

 

 

Maybe, but it's also possible that the DO was able to taint Saidin because the seal created by Saidin alone had certain flaws or weaknesses.

 

The Eye of the World talks about the Dark One's "counterstroke", so it suggests more than just "contact".

 

Also, the lack of women meant that no circles were possible. Lews Therin at best could only use a sa'angreal. Maybe if more power was wielded, no counterstroke would have been possible.

Edited April 25, 2018 by solarz

[Sabio]

As we saw to properly seal the bore the male half, female half, and true power were needed.  LTT had no way get the True Power.  So if only the male and female powers were used it would stand to reason both would of been tainted and the world doomed as men and women all went insane.  The pattern pretty much set LTT up to fail. LTT's failure and memories it was let Rand have a better idea of what he needed to do.  No matter what LTT did the pattern would ensure he wasn't 100% successful.

[solarz]

14 hours ago, Sabio said:

As we saw to properly seal the bore the male half, female half, and true power were needed.  LTT had no way get the True Power.  So if only the male and female powers were used it would stand to reason both would of been tainted and the world doomed as men and women all went insane.  The pattern pretty much set LTT up to fail. LTT's failure and memories it was let Rand have a better idea of what he needed to do.  No matter what LTT did the pattern would ensure he wasn't 100% successful.

 

Unless they, as Sociopath suggested, created an isolated pool of One Power and used that to seal the bore.

[wotfan4472]

Won't work. The pool would be tainted by the DO attacking it directly, just as he did to Saidin.

[solarz]

11 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Won't work. The pool would be tainted by the DO attacking it directly, just as he did to Saidin.

 

The pool would be tainted, but the True Source wouldn't be. The Eye must have been isolated from the Source, as otherwise it wouldn't have remained clean.

[rand4747]

using the DO own power against him worked in the end so neither saidar or saidin had to touch him.

[TheSociopath]

well, yes, what did happen, did happen. No one is actually debating what did happen. Just some of the what ifs.

 

[Forshookt]

I think that if they had used saidin and saidar without the True Power, both halves could have been tainted. I remember reading in AMoL that the coating of True Power that rand drew from Ishy through callandor was instrumental in preventing the DO from tainting. Sine LTT and co had no inclination or way to draw True Power, it would never have occurred to them to shield the source from the DO with his own essence. The breaking would have been the End as we know it.

[Sabio]

That's why I say the pattern set up poor LTT to fail no matter what he did.  Plus LTT really had no idea what he was doing, it was memories of his failure that helped Rand puzzle it out.  The original posters what if idea is interesting, but the Pattern would of made sure no matter what LTT did that he was going to fail.

[Dagon Thyne]

On 4/25/2018 at 11:37 AM, TheSociopath said:

yeah, I'm not really debating that someone should have done it, I'm simply curious about this line of thinking.

Also, if Lews did have access to female Aes Sedai, and they didn't use some store of power similar to the eye, then both halves would have been tainted, wouldn't they?

Yes RJ did say something about the females being right, and that LTT's plan being flawed.  He said that if the women had helped, then both sides of the OP would be tainted and all hope wold have been lost.

 

The reason for the imperfect seal was not that they were using only Saidin, but because the original prison was created using the literal power of the creation.   Humans can't match the power of a god, even with the One Power.

[Talmanes]

This whole topic is something I've pondered a lot. I get the base idea of using the TP to help seal the Bore, but you'd think  eventually that would allow the DO to get free again if the TP corrupts the TS.

 

I know we have the Canon that the DO was sealed away at the moment of creation, but then we also know the Dragon and Dark One have been fighting for basically I infinity so how did the DO get out, get sealed again, only to get out (at least partially) when the Bore was drilled.

 

The ending of AMoL does have that air of finality to it, like this is a better seal this time, but it makes me wonder how it was done in Ages past, and will it still be undone in future Ages? Technically it would be, so Rand has saved the world...for now. Everyone will be long dead before it happens again, but the Wheel will turn.

[solarz]

On 5/9/2018 at 10:51 PM, Dagon Thyne said:

Yes RJ did say something about the females being right, and that LTT's plan being flawed.  He said that if the women had helped, then both sides of the OP would be tainted and all hope wold have been lost.

 

The reason for the imperfect seal was not that they were using only Saidin, but because the original prison was created using the literal power of the creation.   Humans can't match the power of a god, even with the One Power.

 

Now if the One Power wielded by humans can't match the prison created by the Creator, then how did Lanfear drill a bore through that prison in the first place?

 

Maybe she drilled it through the improved patch Rand created? 

 

Of course, then the question is, how was the first Bore drilled? But then that leads us to this question: if Time is a wheel, with no beginnings and no endings, then how is it that there is a Creator and a "moment of Creation"? 

[Talmanes]

@solarz That's probably why the drilling of the Bore has never been described in more detail in the books.

 

Also that comes down to the Creator starting the Wheel of Time.