Events before and after the "Last Battle"

[Sweet 666]

1) With the waste already depleted of most its spears, i think its likely that the trolloc hordes will come crashing through the waste instead of Tarwin's Gap. Makes for a pretty suprise bringing an army out of where you would least expect it.

 

2) Does Malkier (Spelling?) stand or fall after the last battle? Will the nation be rebuilt or the people finally destroyed beyond saving?

[Paladin]

As for the Waste, its a distinct possibility. The Aiel left enough spears to defend thier holds, and with Traveling there is not much of an advantage. We have the example of the Rebel AS moving an entire army to within striking distance in a day. The light has one definate advantage. Shadowspawn cannot survive Traveling through a gateway. They have to move thier forces conventionally. The Light however can move an entire army wherever they are needed within a day. So even if trollocs can be convinced to go into "the Dying Grounds" they still need to cross the dragonwall, and by that time rand will have an entire army waiting at the passes.

 

As for Malkier. I believe that it will return. My understanding is that the blight is a physical manifestation fo the DO's influence on the world, and that it spreads out from the Bore. If Herrid Fell is correct, in this Age, Rand has to seal the Bore so that there is no trace left and the DO is forgotten. So if the Bore is sealed completely the Blight pulls back & finally dissapears. Even 40 years later Malkier is still known, and as seen in New Spring and at the end of KOD, just the name Malkier still has the power to create a following. If Lan survives TG, Malkier will be reborn if he dies it will become a legend simmilair to Manetheren. a Great Nation lost to the shadow.

[RobertAlexWillis]

With the waste already depleted of most its spears, i think its likely that the trolloc hordes will come crashing through the waste instead of Tarwin's Gap. Makes for a pretty suprise bringing an army out of where you would least expect it.

 

Sorry ... don't see it.

 

If they did come through the Waste, and overrun the Aiel remaining there, then they would have to enter Randland through:

 

1) Niamh Pass, which leads them right back into Shienar anyway (so what would be the point? They would just have trapped themselves between multiple, more maneuverable forces),

 

2) the much more defensible Jangai Pass (if they tried that it would be a quick way to get cut to ribbons, Mat and the Band could probably hold off half a million Trollocs there by themselves), or

 

3) march waaaaaaay south almost to Tear. (If they did that, you can bet Light forces would be popping into their path by gateway and setting traps the whole way.)

 

If the Shadow's ultimate objective was in the Waste, then OK, but its not. Because the Aiel Dreamwalkers can communicate faster than the Trollocs can travel, you can bet Rand would hear about an attack on the Aiel and be in position to meet the Trollocs. Or heck, he could just gateway half the Aiel and a half a hundred Asha'man to the Waste. The Trollocs would be up a creek then.

 

They'll come through Tarwin's Gap, a few other Borderland passes, and the Ways. Given the disparity in the number of good vs evil channelers, the only shot the Shadow has is:

 

1) Make sure everyone is fighting amongst themselves (which they've been working at as hard as they can), until

 

2) Shai'tan breaks free. Then, all bets are off.

[Phiotr AlManera]

i think its likely that the trolloc hordes will come crashing through the waste

Why? It offers no strategic advantage.

If Herrid Fell is correct, in this Age, Rand has to seal the Bore so that there is no trace left and the DO is forgotten.

I don't think Herrid said this. Didn't he say something like, once that age will come again. I don't think it will be the coming age. Aren't there six ages?

[Telcar]

he said it was possible that this could be that age, but then again he said that it might not. Either way the Blight will surely retreat much farther than Malkier.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't think Herrid said this. Didn't he say something like, once that age will come again. I don't think it will be the coming age. Aren't there six ages?

 

Here it is:

 

Snatching out his pipe, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One's prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seals are weakening. But that doesn't matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, the Dark One's prison has to be whole again."

 

[Rand responds] "Why? Maybe next time they'll drill through the patch. Maybe thats how they could do it the last time - drill into what the Creator made, I mean - maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just don't know."

 

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One's prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I'm not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole - an Age at least - that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder ..."

(LoC ch 18 )

 

So, the Prison must be restored to its original state before the Wheel turns back to the Third Age. Incidentally, that means that, according to Herid Fel at least, the Age of Legends is just the first part of the Third Age, since the Bore doesn't exist at the beginning of the Third Age.

 

In any case, since the cycle of Ages always repeats, by the time the Third Age comes around again (the next cycle of the Age of Legends) the Dark One has to have been resealed so well that he has been entirely forgotten. In other words, the Prison has to have been restored to its original state for at least a full Age.

 

There are apparently seven Ages (I can't find a source on that though ....) and so there is technically a five Age leeway for the Prison to be resealed.

 

However, there is nothing that says Rand cannot restore it to its original state, if he figures out how to do it. I personally think thats exactly what he has to do. The fact that Lews Therin failed to do that is what kept his personality hanging around for 3000 years. What is the Dragon's purpose, if not to fix the Dark One's prison?

[Phiotr AlManera]

"Time is a wheel with seven spokes, each spoke an Age. As the Wheel turns, the Ages come and go, each leaving memories that fade to legend, then to myth, and are forgotten by the time that Age comes again. The Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change." (TEotW,Glossary)

[mègon]

"Time is a wheel with seven spokes' date=' each spoke an Age. As the Wheel turns, the Ages come and go, each leaving memories that fade to legend, then to myth, and are forgotten by the time that Age comes again. The Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change." (TEotW,Glossary)[/i']

 

I think at one point Moraine explains it to the boys, but I have not run into it yet in my re-reading and I'm near the last 3rd of Book 4, TSR. I'll keep an eye out for it.

[Elwinn Taron]

I think it will be Min who figures out what Rand has to do to rebuild the DO's prison. Well, not Min, but Harid Fel. But Min has her bookmark that Fel wrote about clearing out the rubble on, and she is always reading all the books he wrote.

[phlpr23]

Yeah, I concur, Min will figure out how to do it, and Rand through Lewis Therins guidance will accomplish it.

[frozen Turkey]

If Rand could figure out a way, could he kill the DO for good instead of having to re seal the bore...or is this guy invincible?

 

Another question, did the DO actually break free in the Age of Legends, and if so how the hell did they manage to get him back in there?

[Guest Barmacral]

Rand cannot kill the DO. The creator imprisoned the DO rather than kill him, whether for his own motives, or simply because he couldn't kill him I don't know, but Rand simply does not have the physical capability to kill the DO. No Mortal has that kind of strenght.

 

No the DO did not break free in the AoL. The patch was simply put on the bore, in order to prevent the DO from breaking free too soon. Ideally this would have granted the light enough time come up with a way of sealing up the DO's prison again, but things just didn't work out that way.

[Luckers]

Rand cannot kill the DO. The creator imprisoned the DO rather than kill him, whether for his own motives, or simply because he couldn't kill him I don't know, but Rand simply does not have the physical capability to kill the DO. No Mortal has that kind of strenght.

 

We don't know that, the Choedan Kal could possibly lend that type of strength. We simply do not have enough to knowledge of the strength the Dark One (or the Creator, for that matter) has.

 

One thing is clear though. The Dark One isn't a god in the tri-omni sense. (Omnipotent, Omniscient or omnipresent--actually the third is omni-benevolent, but i doubt anyone is claiming that about the Dark One). There are limits to his power and knowledge--we have seen them. And if he is limited, then in theory at least it seems possible that he can be exceeded, contained or even killed.

 

That being said, since the destruction of the female Choedan Kal and the fact that he's never been destroyed before, i also don't see Rand managing to kill him.

[Sweet 666]

Thanks for all the ideas guys. I guess i really didnt explain myself very well though as to why i believe trollocs will come crashing through the waste. I know the DO will have dreadlords that can channel at the last battle and who knows what else.

 

1. Trollocs are fanaticly evil beings that don't require any reason to kill. They hate the aiel they have been a thorn in their sides for thousands of years.

 

2. There are still hundreds of thousands if not millions of aiel living in the waste. Pretty much everybody minus the spears. This is much larger than the remnant of remnant that is suppose to be saved. I'm not trying to be morbid but this seems the perfect place for a terrible, evil, diabolic event to take place in the books.

 

3. It makes the perfect sense. Well if you have a army of millions of trollocs who can not travel and have to use the conventional means of land and sea. Remeber people this is the LAST BATTLE not some little skirmish at Tarwin's Gap. The light only has a very slight chance of winning this. Remeber the DO has been preparing this for the last three thousand years; making his forces larger and stronger. Humans have been diminishing in numbers since the trolloc wars. (Hence all the seens of abandoned lands and lost cities in the books.) The commander of the trollocs in not going to let the majority of his force sit by and watch while a small portion of it fights at tarwin's gap. He's going to send the trollocs into the randland from every direction making the people fight many battles instead of one all united together. This means that the channlers in randland will have to be spread thin to deal with all these attacks leaving rand with even less support at the main event.

sorry, i have to go maybe i can finish later.

thanks for reading :D

[Luckers]

1. Trollocs are fanaticly evil beings that don't require any reason to kill. They hate the aiel they have been a thorn in their sides for thousands of years.

 

They won't be allowed to simply wander around without focus, they will be controlled by the Myrdraal who in turn will be controlled by the dreadlords, who in turn will be controlled by the Forsaken. Every move they make will be made only to serve the shadows best interests, which takes us too...

 

2. There are still hundreds of thousands if not millions of aiel living in the waste. Pretty much everybody minus the spears. This is much larger than the remnant of remnant that is suppose to be saved. I'm not trying to be morbid but this seems the perfect place for a terrible, evil, diabolic event to take place in the books.

 

Killing the Aiel doesn't really serve the interests of the shadow. Moreover the 'remenant of a remenant' isn't as bad as it sounds, concidering the modern Aiel are already a remenant of the Dai'shain.

 

3. It makes the perfect sense. Well if you have a army of millions of trollocs who can not travel and have to use the conventional means of land and sea. Remeber people this is the LAST BATTLE not some little skirmish at Tarwin's Gap. The light only has a very slight chance of winning this. Remeber the DO has been preparing this for the last three thousand years; making his forces larger and stronger. Humans have been diminishing in numbers since the trolloc wars. (Hence all the seens of abandoned lands and lost cities in the books.)

 

Actually, only the humans in randland have seen a population decrease. Seanchan and the Aiel have both seen growth.

 

Roughly, as things stand, Rand has 2.2 million soldiers and somewhere between 13 and 15 thousand channelers. The Shadow likely has somewhere between 4 and 6 million Trollocs, and 3,000 channelers.

 

Things arn't as dire as they seem.

 

Moreover though, i dont get your statement that it makes sense. If the Trollocs devided their forces, and sent an army into the waste, then that army would sustain heavy losses in conquering each of the holds. By the time that it reached one of the passes it would be greatly reduced, and there it could be contained by a much smaller force, as that Aiel showed when Arture Hawkwing attempted to invade the waste.

 

It would be throwing away lives and time, and allowing your one advantage (numbers) to be lost during the initial battle.

 

The commander of the trollocs in not going to let the majority of his force sit by and watch while a small portion of it fights at tarwin's gap.

 

What made you think anyone is suggesting this would be just at Tarwin's Gap? As i see it there will be three major trolloc initiatives. The first will strike south through Tarwin's Gap, driving Lan and his force before them until they reached, and laid seige to Tar Valon. The second would strike south through the Shadow's Lance, lay waste to Kandor and Saldaea, where they will be met and stopped by the forces Rhuarc has in Arad Domon. Finally the third element will attack into Amadacia via the ways.

 

He's going to send the trollocs into the randland from every direction making the people fight many battles instead of one all united together. This means that the channlers in randland will have to be spread thin to deal with all these attacks leaving rand with even less support at the main event.

 

Striking through the Waste makes no sense though. It presents no valuable military target, and gains nothing for the Shadow, whilst leaving a massive portion of the Shadows army out of the main fight, trying to conquer the one land that has never been conquered, and is literally made of a sequence of the most highly defendeble strongholds in the land. Then, even if they succeed, and do so within time to actually make a difference, they have to fight their way out of a pass that held all the forces Artur Hawkwing could gather.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Here's another event for TG

 

Lan facing Isam/Luc in Tarwin's Gap

 

If I'm not mistaken, Slayer is not only an assassin but also some kind of a military commandor. Didn't he mount the attack on Emond's Field?